Grandfather Clock

Jessica Dinh

Hello! Here is the WIP for my high poly grandfather clock. It is very nearly done - I just have the key-hole piece to do, and a few internal parts, specifically the pendulum lyre (flat decorative scrollie piece attached to the top of the circle thingy). I think I am going to tackle that by modeling half of it from a plane, clicking and cutting away, then mirroring it over. But if there is an easier way to do it, then I would love to know! This is gonna take me a few hours . . . ahaha.

So yeah, if anybody knows a better method of modeling that scrollie piece, let me know. Otherwise, critique for anything else is welcome too!

Reference:



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High Poly Renders (3ds Max):



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Thanks!
Jessica

Kitteh

I'd just trace the shape of it with a spline (set to corner mode so it's properly polygonal) and then use an extrude modifier.

Jessica Dinh

Oh, line tool! Haha, I didn't think of that, thanks!

Jessica Dinh

Ok, here's the completed high poly! - I took some license and got rid of a few of the internal chains - there were just too many XP

Critique welcome!



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Thanks!
Jessica

Snader

The biggest issue right now is that you're using sorta random curves, when most of the curves and arches in the reference are very circular. You also have a few proportion issues and some incorrect details.

Jungsik

oh yay, new thread - My grandfather had a clock like that :P
great start

Jessica Dinh

Thanks for the critique Snader! I will go back and try to fix a few of those proportional details.

Jessica Dinh

Okay, here's an update! I went ahead and fixed a few proportional issues that were at the top of my clock. It's still not perfect, but better anyway thanks to the critique I got earlier! The top trim is a little thicker now, and it's middle semi-circular curve is more 'circular' and less 'random-curvy'. I stretched those little finial pieces a bit to match the reference better.



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There Low poly on the way!

-Jessica

Jessica Dinh

Here's my low poly:





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My normal map:



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And my low poly with the normal map applied:



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Critique welcome!

-Jessica

HAL

the bake came out nice, other than the fact that that pendulum thingy or whatever it is has a bit too many polygons for my taste in contrast to the remaining clock's geometry and the uv space it has assigned , it looks fine to me.

Jessica Dinh

Yeahh, that was a purely silhouette piece, so I didn't know how to make it lower poly without changing its appearance entirely . . . but I'm glad you think the rest of it turned out fine!

Huntard

Lookin Good. I agree with Hal about the pendulum. I would just bake that design on a card and use an alpha to get the shape, at least for the top of the pendulum because it is so ornate.

Grimm_Wrecking

I dunno about baking it to an alpha plane. I'm pretty sure I remember EQ or Pern posting in every thread that mentions doing that to save that small amount of polys to not do it because the alpha texture eats up way more than the 100 or so polies ever could.

Here's a thread Terrible Advice/Myth Thread. There are others, but what it boils down to unless its a significant poly save alpha will probably be more expensive than the polys would.

Overall I like what you've got here and look forward to the texture.

HAL

Hmm sounds like a valid advice here, I withdraw my one.
Keep the polycount like it is, there was another thought that I got in addition to what Grimm_Wrecking mentioned, since you can see the pendulum from the sides as well it should be non flat geometry anyway

Jessica Dinh

Hey Grimm, I read some of that link you posted and it was very helpful in explaining when it is and isn't appropriate to use alphas. For this piece, there are a high amount of tris, but not nearly enough, I think, to warrant alpha use. I shall still learn how to use them though, because I hardly know the process of creating alphas and I'm sure they could be really useful in some cases.

Thanks everyone for calling this piece to my attention; I can really learn from it for future props! Diffuse texture will be up some time tomorrow.

00Zero

i think in this case, an alpha test (instead of a blend) is totally worth it for the pendulum. from any distance further than your screenshot, those polygons are going to be like pixel/subpixel size, so theyre eating up more resources than theyre worth visually.

use a plane with and alpha mask.

Jessica Dinh

Here's my low poly with a diffuse map applied! I am putting it up for critique and comments before I move on to my spec and bump maps.



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UVW Template:




Diffuse Map:



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Thank you!

-Jessica

nullfed

it looks good but the AO is very strong. Consider reducing it by maybe 50% and see how it looks?

Jessica Dinh

Oh! I have two layers of AO here. One has a gaussian blur on it, and I usually reduce the opacity way down on that one but I forgot this time. Hold on, let me fix that - now that I look at the AO, yeah it is super crazy strong haha.

Jessica Dinh

Ahh, much better! XD Clock with tame AO:



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And the new diffuse map:



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Electro

Maybe tone it down by another 50%? :P

Good work though

nullfed

i think something to look at is the diffuse texture itself: the lighter tones on the wood grain are too close to white, I think.
Looking at your reference picture, the main body brown you have in your texture is about as light as it gets. The grain in the reference is all darker but in your texture, it is all lighter. The effect is that the wood looks like something closer to pine rather than the kind of wood used in the clock.
There are also a lot of edges in the diffuse highlighted in almost-white. This makes them look worn when they shouldn't be.
All the contrast between this white and the strong black AO makes the model seem washed out.

I would suggest reducing the pale grain a bit, reducing the white corner highlights completely (save that stuff for a specular map) and bringing in some more brown/red colours in the grain. Do a specular map to help pick out the details. This may leave the diffuse looking a bit dull and its tempting to work into it but thats what the specular/mormal maps are for. Fade the AO right off. When adding it back in, consider giving it a slight tint - like a mahogany shade of brown, but still pretty dark.

Also, look at the different pieces of wood - the door is made with different pieces attached together rather than one large piece with a shape carved into it. If you reflect this building approach in your texture, it will help make the model seem more realistic.

Jessica Dinh

Thank you nullfed! I hadn't noticed that part about the wood grain, and now I think it's my chance to put a little more subtle color into my texture. I was having the same feeling about my texture looking a bit washed. And I will tint and take my AO down some more too and see how that looks.

About the edge highlights, if I take them down in my diffuse and strengthen them in my spec map, isn't that a weird effect for wood? For edge highlights to be specular? I would think that's right for metal, but is it the same for wood?

Andrew Mackie

Wow, you really know how to create a high and low poly mesh, and more importantly, how to transfer great looking maps between them.
I like the texture work tat you have started, but the wood seems washed out ( as you stated above ). As for the weird highlight for the wood, you will just have to think about the type of wood that you're going for. Wood can have an almost metallic look to it from the right angle if it has been polished enough times ( which is the case usually with old clocks like this ), but in the end it's what type of wood you want to go for.
Also the handle ( two triangle pieces on the door ) look a bit pixelated.
Amazing job so far keep up the work!

Jessica Dinh

Thanks Andrew! My wood is going to be pretty polished, so then I guess it's alright for me to make my edges somewhat specular.

Diffuse update coming soon!

nullfed

Yeah the highlights in the ref image are coming from the fact that the wood is varnished. Imagine using a thinner to remove all the varnish and the wood would be fairly matt and flat. Although the edges aren't really more shiny, picking out the major ones a little in the spec would work, I think. Keep going though, it'll look cool when you're done.

Jessica Dinh

Took down edge highlights by about 70% and warmed up the wood tone so it wouldn't look so washed out. The one on the right is my update!



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Jessica Dinh

Rendered in UDK with a spec map:



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Pedro Amorim

oh very pretty
the spec maps is selling it nicely.

Andrew Mackie

Much much better.
Pedro said it perfectly.

Jessica Dinh

Yeah, you guys were right! Focusing the edge highlights toward my spec map worked out well I think Gonna put this in a little lit scene in UDK, should be up by some time tomorrow. I'll shoot this at a better angle so you can see the glass too, right now you can't even tell the panes are there ahaha

Jessica Dinh

And here it is in my lit scene:

Jessica Dinh

**Oops, double post. Hey, it was 5 a.m. ok? XD

Ged

oooOO double post, but quite a pretty double post

Habboi

Something stand out to me. I have a grandfather clock right next to me and the wood is not as shiny as that. It almost looks like a rimshader is applied to it.

Other than that it's a beautiful piece.

Bigjohn

Looks great.

The only suggestion I can give is to tint the AO a bit. It should still be rather dark, but not pure black, and not 0% saturation. Just a very dark orange would do the trick I believe.

nullfed

- It could do with a skirting board if you're going to include the back wall.

- The single line in the shadow looks a bit distracting.

- The shadow at the base of the clock where it meets the floor looks strange - is that a UDK thing?

- The spec map is adding a lot to it, but maybe play with the values a bit. the overall shininess could be lower with some tighter, brighter parts on certain key edges. Maybe look at a colour spec, if you're in UDK, with a specular power?

Jessica Dinh

Thanks for the critique guys! The shadow at the base of the clock does look kindof funny, and I think it is UDK's automatic ambient occlusion - I don't really know how to turn it off And yeah, I will mess with specular power a little bit more and see if I can get a tighter, wood-like shine!

Cap Hotkill

Nice model! to me the only thing that really fails in this model is the wood texture, try to get some good photo realistic wood textures and try to keep always the same Density every were. right now with that texture it makes it look like a plastic toy, and its a shame that all that work gets a bad look just because of a texture

Jessica Dinh

You really think it's my base wood texture, and not the specular levels, that's making it toy-like? I actually thought the texture I found was pretty good haha.

Cap Hotkill

hehehe, your speculars need work too, but Specular is just what makes the Model shine, like when its varnished. but the wood under the varnish is what really makes a piece made of wood look good, not the varnish

HotSizzlingJaz

You need some cubemap reflections on the Metal, Best result if you use a HDR map. (The glass could use the same Cubemap but without HDR and of course with much less strength) Then you will get some really believable results, Like those reflections you have in the ref. Otherwise it looks really good. Maybe try to make the AO in the texture less strong. Its looking a bit lite outlines on a cartoon clock. Let the lighting from the environment and the Unreal screen space AO do the work. Cheers

Cap Hotkill

Try this texture if you dint find any better one.

Jessica Dinh

Haha thanks for that wood texture Cap Hotkill. The grain on that looks really nice! HotSizzlingJaz, I agree with you: my asset would look more like the ref if I put in a cubemap for the metal. For future portfolio pieces, I will keep in mind the advantages of using multiple materials.

But for this particular prop, I am practicing using as few materials as possible (so far I have 2, a cubemap for the glass, and another material for the rest of the clock) - I hear using multiple materials on an asset is quite expensive!

Goat Justice

Looking good. I like the darker look of the wood in the scene renders. If you're still tweaking the textures here are a few things you might try out:

The posted diffuse has all of the wood elements at pretty much the same hue and value. You might try varying between elmentes to get more contrast in the piece. Say lighter trims and darker flat areas or vice versa. It doesn't have to go so far that they look like different materials, just a slight adjustment to enhance the boundary between elements. Some of the later renders have a bit of this look to them, but I cant tell if its an updated diffuse or the lighting.

Overall, nice work.

And yeah, multiple materials are usually expensive. It depends on the engine, but they often cause the model to be broken into multiple draw calls. Each with some amount of overhead from loading up data and passing it off to be drawn.

For portfolio work, though, make it look cool first. Be efficient enough to show you are making the most of the large textures and multiple mats second.

HotSizzlingJaz

Just to clearify, you will still only be using two materials, One for the clock and one for the glass (You mask in the alpha what you want to be affected by the cubemap, either use an DXT1 texture to have it on or off or have a DXT3 and use a little bit of cubemap on the whole clock to give this polished wood feel, you will not really get this feel with just a specular). The downside is that you will end up with an extra drawcall if you use a cubemap in the shader. But in a indoor environment like this you will most likely not have problem with drawcalls anyway. We use cubemaps on a LOT of things in our game. Where we have problem with drawcalls we assign another material to the lod without a cubemap in the shader. So I say, Go ahead and try it! Best result if you finish your scene and bake a cubemap from that and keep in mind, the more light sources in the scene the more interesting reflection you will get.
cheers

Jessica Dinh

Goat Justice - Thank you! I like your idea of varying the hue/value for the trims to break up the piece a bit. I'll definitely go in and do a slight tweak there and see how it looks.

HotSizzlingJaz - Thanks for clarifying! I didn't know I could have some reflectivity on certain parts of my material and not on others!! I do admit most of what you're saying is going a little over my head (DXT stuff, drawcalls, shaders??) for this is pretty much my first time in UDK . BUT: after this crazy finals week is over I am going to revisit this piece and implement all the wonderful critique I am getting here! Christmas break will give me a chance to research UDK and materials more