(very) Low poly head modeling question

Tom Ellis

Hey all,

I'm just playing around with some low poly modeling and while I've still got a lot to learn about optimizing and decent use of triangles, I'm ok with the body/hands/legs etc, but the head is proving tricky.

I'm fine with anything slightly higher poly, either through box modeling or edge-extruding but really low poly, I just don't understand how to begin a comprehensive head because it doesn't seem to have any logical start points.

For example, when I start a higher poly head, I'll do a loop round the eye, one round the mouth then a strip up the nose etc, and that technique applies right down to a pretty low level, but when I try really low poly, these loops etc don't appear to exist and I get lost before I get anywhere!

To begin with I thought it might be an idea to straight up copy some existing work. So I get an OBJ of a WoW character and copied the topology.




The problem is though that even though it came out ok, I don't feel any the wiser and I think even if I did it over and over I wouldn't 'get it'. Or be able to reproduce it without the ref there.



This is mainly because I can't pick out the places to start. I think a large part of that is that the model is triangulated and it's difficult to visualise loops, but 99% of the tri's are there for a reason, even pulling out all the 'auto' tri's I still can't see defined loops or points to begin at.

Has anyone got any tips or even better a quick tutorial that goes through modeling a head of this kind of poly count. Or explain how I should be looking at the topology/beginning a head like this.

The swordmaster tutorial is probably the closest but even that is a little detailed and again, optimizing it down to this level doesn't seem a logical way of working.

Thanks.

cryrid

When it gets really low-poly, you don't have to worry so much about loops. The eyes for example are probably pure texture, so they don't need the definition/isolation loops would provide. Same for the mouth, at best there might be a basic mouth-opening animation, but probably not advanced enough to show different phonemes so it wont need those loops that refine things.

Just work on making sure the basic planes of the head are there (Loomis and other drawing tutorials cover this). Then it's just texture.


See also http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76733 for more about planes

Tom Ellis

Nice one Cyrid thanks, that pic is a great help too.

The problem is more about 'how' to model it than what to model if you see what I mean, like a logical workflow to get to that stage in the pic you linked. Do I begin with a box for that kind of thing or edge extruding?

SpeCter

You do what works best for you, you can do box modeling,edge extruding or mix both.
It really depends on what you like more, you can get this results with both techniques, just do what is the fastest workflow for you

Tom Ellis

Ok thanks Specter I'll give it a shot.

On a side note, does anyone know if they used any kind of projection painting on World of Warcraft models?

I'm looking at the texture file that the model viewer exported and not only are the hands squashed right up on the unwrap to the point they would've been unnatural to paint 2D, the seams where the arms join chest is invisible, yet they're in entirely different places in the UV layout.

pior

Draw, draw, draw. The only reason why the wow is head is so low, yet still working in terms of facial volumes is not thanks to a specific modeling voodoo. Its simply because the artist behind it knew exactlty how a head is build in real life - after drawing them for years, from ref, from memory, from different angles, under different lighting conditions. This has nothing to do with loops, edge extrusion, or box modeling. Its just anatomy and form knowledge.

If you find a great portrait artist and teach him 30 minutes of Max or Silo, he or she will be able to make a head just like that from scratch in maybe a couple hours. Now if you take an experienced 3DSMax 'expert' knowing the program inside out from years but lacking a traditional figurative art background, and ask him to do the same head ... itll look like shit, no matter how hard he tries.

So ... wheres your 2D concept ?

As for projection paint, I doubt they did, except on the latest models maybe. Learning to fix seams by hand is a very goodthing to do, and its quite easy on low poly models anyway. It teaches good UV mapping techniques. (you can edit UVs after the texture and the model are done you know).

My advice is to worry less about technicalities, and to focus more on the art 'behind' the model.

Good luck

Tom Ellis

Thanks Pior.

I totally agree that a decent anatomy foundation is super important and I've spent the last few months really getting into that. In fact I think it was you saying a similar thing to me a little while ago which got me into actually doing that.

http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75228

In this case though the problem does appear to be technical. It's not so much that I can't get it modeled in 3D, more that I'm looking for a good modeling workflow to repeatedly creat this kind of model. As I said, when I start a higher poly head, I'll do the eye/mouth loops and work from there. But with this kind of topology I can't find a logical place to begin.

I'll get it figured out though I'm sure and the comments here have been very helpful.

Thanks again

Psyk0

Well if this is any help, i prefer to trace the profile view first and go from there...

Tom Ellis

Cheers Psyk0, yeah I think getting the ortho's looking good before just continuing to shape out a box is the best way I'm finding so far.

Going back to the WoW projection paint thing; here's a texture from the basic human:

(I should probably mention this is property of Blizzard)



See how the fingers are all squashed up in the upper left quadrant.

Maybe this isn't that unusual to those in the know but I just found it looking really unnatural to paint like that, unless they texture it and rebake it in a different layout or something?

Tom Ellis

I'm still not getting this modeling thing man it's driving me mad.

I start with a box, spherify... shape a bit and then just get stuck.

I'm looking through the low poly thread and at stuff from the likes of Bobo and there seems to be this 'generic' topology throughout the polycount ranges from very very low up to kinda low. When I say 'topology' I don't mean 'good topology for animation' I just mean the way the tri's/polys are laid out.

There must be a way to do it that everyone begins with. Like 'make box - x amount of sections, spherify, tweak shape, cut here and pull out nose, cut here and make cheeks, cut here for eyes etc etc. But I'm not finding it.

It's a purely technical issue too which is why it's so frustrating because it's not like I can just go practice like if it was an artistic thing because I've been going round with the same problem all day and I've got nowhere.

Grrr!

If anyone else is wasting a Saturday evening sat at their computer like me, then feel free to put together a quick vid of you box modeling a head to a similar tri-count as the couple examples above. I'll be forever greatful.

cryrid

There must be a way to do it that everyone begins with. Like 'make box - x amount of sections, spherify, tweak shape, cut here and pull out nose, cut here and make cheeks, cut here for eyes etc etc. But I'm not finding it.

I think you're putting too much thought into it, making it harder than it needs to be. It's like modeling anything else; it doesn't matter how you begin or what your approach is, just model the shape. Don't worry about anything else, just the basic form and silhouette. If you're really having problems, take an image of a face and draw a few triangles over it to plan things out in advance.

Tom Ellis

It's not the shapes I'm having probelms with. It's how to make them.

Wanna see what I mean?

Here's attempt number 4599483

widnesjohn

yeah totaly agree with model the shape of the head first and usualy i take the image of the head and draw the topology over the face to plan ahead so i can keep to a low amount of quads

Tom Ellis

I know man and I get it. Look at my first image up top. That was based off of a WoW model and then I made an exact copy of the image Cyrid posted.

I can make them when I copy someones work but I just want an effective way to box model them quickly without spending ages extruding each edge and lining it up. It seems dumb to go about it that way.

I know the whole 'it's the end result that matters' holds true but I'm trying to speed up my workflow and work efficiently which in my opinion is just having a tried and true way to pull out a decent low poly head base from a box rather than extrude edges.

Tom Ellis

DKK wrote: »

In any case, Why don't you take the images Swizzle posted of the Asaro head, Make a Box in max, and use only the Cut and the Connect tools, to build out every plane.

Honestly? Because I can't.

It's shameful but I just cannot do it. My modeling skills are not capable of it it seems.

Zwebbie

Just continue refining attempt number 4599483; you've only moved and added a couple of verts here and there, that's far too early to say if anything is bad or good. It may be hard to continue working on something that has no likeness at all, but you'll just have to learn to have enough faith in yourself that you'll push yourself through.

Tom Ellis

Ok emo moment over, tears have been wiped away.

After I dropped the 'I must box model this' (thanks DKK) things seemed to become a little easier.

So this is a 10 minute edge extrude session... better?



I think the reason I wanted to box model, was not because I think box modeling is cool, or because I thought it was necessarily easier... just because it seems easier to pick out logical ways of doing things with a box, so when I practice over and over, the method and order of doing things would be something I could pick up quickly. Whereas with edge extruding at this kind of poly level, there didn't initially seem to be a logical place to start every time.

However, I seem to have found a fairly memorable way of doing it so hopefully if I just practice this over and over and with different head ref pics I should get it down.

Marine

It sounds like you're spending ten minutes on the model and then giving up because it's not immediately perfect. It won't be, you need to spend the time to learn how to make it, you're not going to have anatomy or technical knowledge handed to you overnight. You'll get faster, but you have to stick with it.

And you posted while I was browsing...

It looks better, now make another one, or draw one

Tom Ellis

Cheers Marine, yeah I kinda was.

I don't mind so much that it doesn't look perfect just yet and that wasn't really the goal. It was more to get a consistent way to build a head, that I could then refine and reuse later with practice.

DKK -

Cheers!

So from there, can I literally just start cutting away and manually triangulating to pull out some extra shape?

Tom Ellis

Also, one more thing.

When I'm modeling with triangles, is there a quick way to create them? The create tool obviously goes wild in perspective view when there's no 'live' surface to draw on, unless I'm doing something wrong.

Currently I'm shift-extruding an edge then collapsing or target welding which works but it's a little annoying and slow.

D4V1DC

Yes you can just don't try to do things so fast, It takes time, I have problems modeling heads too which I am probably going to work on just to get over It.

Anyway here I hope these help:
1. Head Modeling, A Very good video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYAWAK1_6Gw

2. Head Modeling, oldie but goody if you have a front and side reference to go on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xls25e08sSg

3. Head Modeling, Another oldie and a step by step:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ3_fq_rWZI&feature=related

4. Head Modeling, A Favorite of mine, I love the way he did this video and how he started the model:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac4qV2uIF3Q

Use VLC to slow down any videos you have a problem understanding, pause after every move and work along side them, understand the reasons for every line placement and why they decided to work like that, then after your comfortable make up your own or stick with what works for you.

Hope It works out and just take your time, btw I like how your ghost rider came out and the flames on the bike!

Vrav

Edge modeling is so straightforward and beautiful. I still start with primitive shapes for most things, but a freaking head deserves to just be set up manually. And for higher-poly heads, unless you're doing retopo on a sculpt, just setting up the major landmark loops from capless cylinders and extruding / reshaping / connecting them immediately how you want the topology to flow is so much easier, imo, than the crazily restrictive puzzle box modeling becomes.

Kudos if you can do it like Bay Raitt, but there's no harm in linear modeling. Eventually you just combine the two, working with edge-modeled features and connecting them with ngons, cutting loops and such box-modeling style as you build out the shape.

Tom Ellis

Thanks a lot for the further replies.

$!nz -

Thanks man. That last vid is crazy, very awesome. And yep I'm pretty happy with Lil Ghost Rider came out, thanks!

Vrav - Yeah good points. I think my 'must use box modeling' mentality was what was holding me back. I've always preferred edge-extruding but I guess I always assumed the real low-poly stuff was done more effectively with boxes but I guess whatever one is most comfortable with!

Thanks again guys.