Why so few custom realtime shaders for Maya?

sltrOlsson

Is there a reason why that is? You see new cool Max viewport shaders popping up from month to month, but basically one good Maya shader, Kodde shader. Is it easier to script for Max or is it just that all the good scripters use Max?

Progg

Mel is fairly easy to script in. I believe the reason is because Max handles hardware rendering much better than Maya. I could be way off but I think Max is D3D whereas Maya is OpenGL? Maya behaves strangely when trying to interpret a normal map in realtime quality a good portion of the time. It is getting much better each version, but I still use 8 and even just that far back the normal map interpretation is horrendous. Also I still think a good portion of the industry is more comfortable in Max. This is definitely changing... but from my experience even at studios that any 3d program, most of the animation is in Maya whereas the environment and realtime art is either in Max or XSI. I was one of the few people using Maya, at least at my last job.

MoP

Progg wrote: »

Mel is fairly easy to script in.

Just FYI, though, MEL script has nothing to do with shader display in Maya.

It's not actually harder to write a shader for either application, it's pretty much exactly the same syntax and same knowledge required for both applications, so that can't be the reason.

Progg wrote: »

Maya behaves strangely when trying to interpret a normal map in realtime quality a good portion of the time.

What? Have you somehow managed to miss the massive, multi-page thread about how 3ds Max's viewport display of normal-maps is completely incompatible with its own baker and renderer? Maya's real-time normal-map display is excellent, at least in versions 2008 and up (and from what I recall, it's been fine since at least Maya 8 )!

I think the main reason here is actually as you touched on, though - 3ds Max is more prevalent in videogame development and real-time graphics in general (judging by the occasional straw poll seen on various CG sites).

However, there is a difference I can think of between Max and Maya's shader support that might make a difference to someone interested implementing a new shader, which is that Max is capable of doing full-screen shader effects (if I remember right), while Maya can't do that, so that could be a limiting factor. Also, it seems that Max's real-time shadowing support is better than Maya's.

Maya supports HLSL and CGFX shaders, if there's a shader for Max then it shouldn't be too hard to port it across to Maya, it's mostly about getting the UI things hooked up properly and passing the appropriate data from the app to the shader.

As for Maya shaders, I can think of at least a few decent ones - there's Brice Vandemoortele's BRDF shader, and as you mentioned, Kostas Gialitakis' "koddeShader", which are both fairly full-featured shaders for Maya. And that's without even doing a search, I'm sure there are more.

What shader effects do you need that these ones can't achieve?

Progg

MoP wrote: »

Just FYI, though, MEL script has nothing to do with shader display in Maya.

It's not actually harder to write a shader for either application, it's pretty much exactly the same syntax and same knowledge required for both applications, so that can't be the reason.


What? Have you somehow managed to miss the massive, multi-page thread about how 3ds Max's viewport display of normal-maps is completely incompatible with its own baker and renderer? Maya's real-time normal-map display is excellent, at least in versions 2008 and up (and from what I recall, it's been fine since at least Maya 8 )!

I think the main reason here is actually as you touched on, though - 3ds Max is more prevalent in videogame development and real-time graphics in general (judging by the occasional straw poll seen on various CG sites).

However, there is a difference I can think of between Max and Maya's shader support that might make a difference to someone interested implementing a new shader, which is that Max is capable of doing full-screen shader effects (if I remember right), while Maya can't do that, so that could be a limiting factor. Also, it seems that Max's real-time shadowing support is better than Maya's.

Maya supports HLSL and CGFX shaders, if there's a shader for Max then it shouldn't be too hard to port it across to Maya, it's mostly about getting the UI things hooked up properly and passing the appropriate data from the app to the shader.

As for Maya shaders, I can think of at least a few decent ones - there's Brice Vandemoortele's BRDF shader, and as you mentioned, Kostas Gialitakis' "koddeShader", which are both fairly full-featured shaders for Maya. And that's without even doing a search, I'm sure there are more.

What shader effects do you need that these ones can't achieve?

Actually I have no idea why I put mel... I guess I was referring to the GUI aspect of it I've even done some custom Maya shaders in Mental Ray.. I blame it on just waking up :P

Maybe it has changed in more recent versions? Like I said I still use 8.. and there were always display issues with viewport renderings and we always use to have to listen to people complain about how the normal maps never displayed correctly. If they have made it better... that is awesome! As far as the Max normal map thing... honestly I have no experience with Max's viewport interpretation as I've only started in it recently.. so does it interpret incorrectly or something?

MoP wrote: »

Also, it seems that Max's real-time shadowing support is better than Maya's.

Yeah.. this is a better explanation of what I was trying to get at. :P Also, doesn't Max handle transparency better than Maya? I know in Maya I have had problems with transparency sorting on multiple cards or planes stacked close together with transparency... but I've never tried in Max so I really don't know

kodde

Hey guys,

Thank's for the kind words

Yeah Maya's Normal Map support works just fine imo.

MoP pretty much nailed what I find lacking in Maya, the lack of full screen effects (post processing). Also lacks support for shadows with CGFX/HLSL shaders. Freedom of tweaking UI with the shader is also sparse.

There's also Leonardo Covarrubias icNextGenShader. Haven't tried more than briefly though.

sltrOlsson

I see. I had a picture of the using in Maya/Max was a US-Europe thing. I guess where a bit isolated up here in the north :P From what i've heard we are manly a Maya country, if that's even possible to say. Well, what ever :P

I'm not really out for a hunt of a new shader. KoddeShader cover my main needs, but more bling is never wrong! Shadows, HDR and realtime AO, i wouldn't certainty say no!

Eric Chadwick

Definitely check out Brice & Cedric's BRDF shader
http://wiki.polycount.net/CategoryShaders

sltrOlsson

Yeah, i looked at it. At that moment i couldn't really get my head around it. Really cool with the relief thingy. I'll check it out next project (:

pior

Funny that you complain theres not enough shaders for maya, even tho you got your hand on probably the most powerful one hehe

cryrid

The lack of XSI shaders available (as evident by the wiki) saddens me

Eric Chadwick

The wiki only knows what the wiki only knows

Link some shaders!

Lamont

EricChadwick wrote: »

The wiki only knows what the wiki only knows

Made me laugh!!

Toast

kodde wrote: »

MoP pretty much nailed what I find lacking in Maya, the lack of full screen effects (post processing). Also lacks support for shadows with CGFX/HLSL shaders. Freedom of tweaking UI with the shader is also sparse.

I'm sure Autodesk are working hard on Viewport 2.0 (when actual fact it's more like Viewport 0.2 in its current state!) but time will tell.

Log a sug, the more logged the faster Maya's new Viewport will be developed:

http://autodesk.com/maya-sug

chronic

It is inherently less interesting to do shaders in Maya because we are limited to the basics. No shadows is the #1 killer imo, and post effects really push things in max to the next level in terms of quality of presentation.

I have recently found it much more fulfilling to write highly customized and specialized shaders for the workflow and file structures I use at work than trying to make monstrous one-size-fits-all.

still i'll take the opportunity to pimp my own shader, which includes some minor features unavailable in others, max or maya - feel free to steal the code.
lcUberShader.cgfx - http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=70739

chronic

kodde wrote: »

There's also Leonardo Covarrubias icNextGenShader. Haven't tried more than briefly though.

This is a really old shader i don't develop anymore, plus I'm pretty sure it isn't well programed and has some mistakes

kodde

chronic wrote: »

This is a really old shader i don't develop anymore, plus I'm pretty sure it isn't well programed and has some mistakes

Oh sorry, I mixed them up.

r4ptur3

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the big difference that Max is DirectX native and Maya has to emulate it? You can get shadows in Maya's viewport (even raytraced from 2009+) but they are crap compared to a nice shader based shadow. I like to think of it as "not so bad artifacting" vs. an actual shadow ... lol.

Brice Vandemoortele

Because 'is there a max version?" is the more common question about maya shaders

kodde

Brice Vandemoortele wrote: »

Because 'is there a max version?" is the more common question about maya shaders

Hahah
I get it. It is funny because it is true.

bugo

There's a very nice shadow bias now in viewport 2.0 in maya. Really good lighting too. Hope that helps

kodde

From what I've seen VP 2.0 does not support CGFX-shaders

EDIT:
Bugo> What setup to get those Shadows? I'm trying a pSphere with a blinn material, a directional light with depth shadows. Not working at all. I'm using VP2.0, Use All Lights, Shadows Enabled in Lights menu. As soon as I click "Use Depth Shadows" on the light shading goes dark as it was prior to adding any light.