Discussing issues at work, grounds for firing?

1
for the sake of anonymity I'll try to put this as vaguely as I can. so say someone asked to be comped for working a weekend (aka overtime) they asked this and they bring up the fact that other workers have gotten comped in the past and they can site several cases of this happening, the employer denies this then retorts with the quote "discussing salary and pay and the such is grounds for firing. so if someone is talking about this then some people need to be fired"

my question is this.

Is it? Is discussing pay and being comped for overtime grounds for dismissal? I feel it seems a bit fishy and not quite accurate but I wanted to get some others opinions on the issue and see what others have experienced in this area?

Replies

  • Rwolf
    I would hope not, I've been on salary, and OT just = days off. On a contract I was Paid for my OT.
  • aniceto
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    aniceto polycounter lvl 12
    sounds about right, I guess its so they don't get disgruntled employees sulking about how someone negotiated a better package than them.
    on the other hand being fired cause you asked for OT doesn't make sense.
  • Cyrael
    Rwolf wrote: »
    I would hope not, I've been on salary, and OT just = days off. On a contract I was Paid for my OT.

    yep thats why I specified comped instead of paid because if you are salary then taking a comped day is fine as well (or should be).
    on the other hand being fired cause you asked for OT doesn't make sense.

    I agree with this, and this hasn't happened I was just curious after a fellow employee informed me of this discussion. I'm also wondering if this is fairly standard practice at most companies because this company doesn't always do things "by the book"
  • vcortis
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    vcortis polycounter lvl 9
    What you just described is very common among most workplaces. Employers do not want their employees discussing their wages amonst each other. It creates problems and destroys harmony in the workplace.

    Imagine if someone were hired after you to do the same job, but was payed more and they told you this. Naturally you would be pissed off and go complain to your boss. You probably wouldn't focus on your work and feel spiteful towards your employer. Of course your boss doesn't want this to happen.

    Likely your employer has a company policy in place where you are not suppose to discuss such things with other co-workers. Now that you know this if the issue arises in the future try to persuade your boss to pay you OT without resorting comparing yourself with others.

    In general to save yourself a lot of trouble no one should know exactly what you make other than your employer, the government and your significant other, especially not your co-workers.

    Edit: If you are close with your co-workers and feel like you need to discuss pay with them. Do it discretley and by the GODS do not let your employer know you are doing it.
  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 13
    The problem isn't the guy asking for OT. It's that other employees talked to said employee about how they were paid, right? That isn't really kosher at most places. People negotiate their own deals. I assume the "the employer denies this then retorts with the quote "discussing salary and pay and the such is grounds for firing. so if someone is talking about this then some people need to be fired"" isn't talking about the employee who asked for overtime, but rather the person that talked about how they were paid. This isn't unusual.
  • clangorous
    Just so people know...In the US you are allowed to discuss wages things related to employment agreements. There are limits to when and where you can discuss such things, but for the most part an employer cannot stop you from discussing these matters with others (though they do try).

    http://www.kclabor.org/kyrmpp.htm

    and

    http://www.nlrb.gov/about_us/overview/national_labor_relations_act.aspx
  • Cyrael
    Vcortis: I agree with the reasons why they wouldnt' want you to discuss these issues, because like you said it could very easily cause undue stress and tension among employees. I'm glad to hear its not out of the ordinary for this to be the case.

    aesir: Yes I'm sure the employer was referring to the people who talked and not the person asking for the OT.

    clangorous: Thank you. Thank you very much. I am so glad you showed me that article long with the labor laws link. The reason why I thought them doing this was fishy in the first place is because this employer likes to blow a lot of smoke up your you know what. I'm glad there is no basis for his claims because rest assured that the discussing of wages does not happen on office grounds (and the only reason it does happen is because there is a gaping flaw in the way this system is handled). In which case the individual is in the clear if they were to try to fire him because of this.


    Thanks for all the input guys and I will definitely be sure to inform the individual it is in their best interest to not bring up other circumstances next time because its in his best interest, but it is not illegal to do so.
  • yiannisk
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    yiannisk polycounter lvl 7
    I think he shouldn't mention other employees getting it at all.
    If it is an applicable company rule he should ask it on that basis.

    It sounds to me that person didn't discuss the OT and CO issue, he tried to compel his boss into giving him CO based on what other people got or maybe something else. How come If this was a standard procedure in that company then there was no need citing what others got i guess no need to go to your boss for such matter either if you have HR and this is a standard procedure.

    How did salary came up if they were discussing simply for COs?
  • [Deleted User]
    I don't know how things are done at real jobs, but in every department store (etc) I've worked at, it's been technically grounds for dismissal to talk about your pay and stuff with other employees. Avoiding squabbles over the whys and hows of it all was the likely reasoning, as far as I can figure. (Not sure if there was ever anything unfair happening or not, but it was probably easier than having to explain everything to everyone, as there's usually a reason for all the decisions a boss makes in such matters.) But yeah, sometimes it can be against the rules.

    Talking about it with your supervisors, not so much, I would think.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir polycounter
    it works like this:

    if you discuss YOUR salery with other people, you can be fired.

    if you claim other people are discussing THEIR salery, they can be fired if you name them. HOWEVER if you don't name them, the employer can tell you it's a groundless claim and refuse what you ask.

    using other people as a reason to get overtime pay is a very weak argument, and you've pigeonholed yourself into the "exploit me cos i can't do anything about it" catagory now.
  • Ghostscape
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    Ghostscape polycounter lvl 12
    dickbag employer, but yeah, the "Bob got it, I should get it" argument is a lot weaker than "I'm amazing and valuable, so I deserve it" argument, and doesn't allow your employer to shift blame or pass stuff off like that.
  • AstroZombie
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    AstroZombie polycounter lvl 14
  • Cyrael
    Ghostscape wrote: »
    dickbag employer, but yeah, the "Bob got it, I should get it" argument is a lot weaker than "I'm amazing and valuable, so I deserve it" argument, and doesn't allow your employer to shift blame or pass stuff off like that.


    there is no hr department, standard company procedure is usually the company asking for OT but never compensating its employees for it or so they say. I think the employer just made a blanket statement saying "wages and comp time are not to be discussed etc. etc."

    and the "I'm amazing and valuable" was tried several times and not rewarded thats why the individual had to resort to citing examples. True though that they should be able to convince the employer regardless of using others.
  • Sandbag
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    Sandbag polycounter lvl 13
    I've always thought salaries should be publicly open within a company to promote fair pay and treatment of employees.

    It requires a good deal of maturity to keep it from causing bitchery, but if handled correctly it would be an excellent way to keep out increased pay based on favoritism or other non-worth associated factors.

    That way, if someone says "why does Guy B make so much more?" You should be able to justify it with a list of concrete reasons, thereby creating realistic goals for other employees seeking to make that salary.

    Of course it's pretty unrealistic to expect that to actually happen though...but it sure sounds nice to me.
  • ElysiumGX
    Never discuss wages! Especially in lower job titles. It will almost always cause conflict. It's worth firing someone who can't keep their mouth shut, than to let office politics and passive aggressiveness flare. Employees should only discuss these topics with their managers.

    If you disagree with the way management works, quit.
  • rolfness
    not sure if its been mentioned, the other take on it is for employees to conspire and blackmail management..If one person did it then its far easier to solve than if half the company held management to ransom
  • East
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    East polycounter lvl 9
    When I moved to the UK to start my industry job I was quite shocked by how people viewed talking about money, since I came from a culture where after salary negotiations your peers' first question when you exited your boss' office was, "how much did you get?"

    I can understand it being uncomfortable for some people. Especially for that senior staffmember with a lot of experience who rakes in £35k+, but who gets somewhat outperformed by a junior making just over half his pay.

    Of course it will cause strife, but as long as pay translates into actual value to the company, then it should all be just fine. Problem is, it rarely ever does, now does it?
  • Raider
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    Raider polycounter lvl 9
    if you're talking about getting OT pay you talk to your boss or whoever is in charge of payment, most companies have it in the contract that you don't discuss your payment because a lot of places have a vast difference in pay grades for even the same positions. It causes disgruntled employees and just problems in generals.

    My bro got an official warning from his company for mention paygrades.
  • Fuse
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    Fuse polycounter lvl 13
    Discussing salary with fellow workmates empowers the working staff. Making it a taboo subject only gives the employer all the leverage.

    I, personally have no problem discussing my salary with employees in my circle. There are those who arent comfortable discussing it in public and that's perfectly normal. You have to know the crowd before you discuss compensation at the risk of upsetting people who may feel mistreated.

    Still, I think the idea that employees shouldn't discuss salary with each other is ridiculous. It's an idea that only favours the management and completely disarms the workers.

    Being tight lipped about such matters is exactly what bad management wants you to do.
  • moof
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    moof polycounter lvl 7
    Damn, it's sad that we're forced to fear for our jobs so much. I really think if you're worth it a company should fear losing you more than you fearing losing the company.
  • Raider
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    Raider polycounter lvl 9
    Yes and no fuse, but if i found out someone who was producing lesser quality work then me and that's it was getting paid more. Then i'd prob kick up a fuss and say why is this happening, even if he had more experience if that was the only difference and made 0 difference to the overall quality / speed of his work, i don't see the reasoning.
  • Fuse
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    Fuse polycounter lvl 13
    oops double post ..
  • Fuse
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    Fuse polycounter lvl 13
    Raider, that's how you feel. So it's different for different people. Your opinion probably represents the state of mind of the majority in this field of work, but it doesn't mean that everyone should follow that kind of thinking.

    If I was in a similar situation, it wouldn't really upset me. It's just a roll of a die at that point and if I felt I was mistreated or underpaid, I would make the appropriate moves or just accept the situation.

    Ignorance is not the answer. If you feel mistreated then your choices are pretty simple. Discuss it with your management, leave or accept it. It doesn't mean you shouldn't be informed. The employer is not doing you a favour. You are providing skilled labour and are paid what you are worth to the company.

    Like I said. It's in the employers best interests for the workforce not to discuss it openly. You certainly want to use some discretion as not to offend anyone else. But if you don't talk about it, you are leaving yourself without any ammunition.
  • Raider
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    Raider polycounter lvl 9
    I probably worded it wrong, I'd have no problem talking about pay to people, i still don't. But if during that talk i found out someone who was less efficient / lesser quality of work but was getting more then i'd have a think why and pursue the proper action.

    But it is a trend these days for employers just to say.. talk and reap the consequences.
  • Fuse
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    Fuse polycounter lvl 13
    Raider wrote: »
    I probably worded it wrong, I'd have no problem talking about pay to people, i still don't. But if during that talk i found out someone who was less efficient / lesser quality of work but was getting more then i'd have a think why and pursue the proper action.

    But it is a trend these days for employers just to say.. talk and reap the consequences.

    It appears that you would have a problem talking about salary in this case :)
  • Cyrael
    I agree completely and would have no problem discussing my salary openly with any of my coworkers, like you said, it should be based upon what you are worth the amount of work you do and how skilled you are. But the reality is like others have mentioned that favoritism plays a bigger part in money than skill. One who raises questions is not seen in a favorable light and therefore it makes it harder to pursue proper compensation when management pulls shenanigans like they do.
  • Junkie_XL
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    Junkie_XL greentooth
    I don't think this is even an issue of discussing salary. You weren't asking for specific salary amounts from other employees were you? You were asking to fairly get paid for doing work on the weekend like your co-workers, not asking how much they were paid. Your boss sounds like a dink IMO.
  • Raider
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    Raider polycounter lvl 9
    If i've signed a contract saying "i will not discuss my pay grade with other employees" then yes i wouldn't say anything because they could hammer me for it. That's just being smart.

    If it wasn't in the contract i wouldn't have a problem talking about it.
  • Ruz
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    Ruz polycounter lvl 14
    you might be surprised to learn that some managers kind of look down on you at a later stage if you don't negotiate hard when you have your initial interviews.
    You would think would n't you that they would have the decency to pay you what you are worth, but its business and they will try and pay you as little as they can get away with.

    I am sure there are some exceptions to this( probably)
  • Sandbag
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    Sandbag polycounter lvl 13
    I'm surprised so many people would rather be ignorant to overpay of worthless employees than know about it.

    Getting "upset" about it is exactly the kind of reaction that would prevent the gross overpay in the first place if salaries were openly discussed.

    People SHOULD want to raise hell if some worthless no load is making twice as much as someone making twice the quality/quantity/etc of work. Controlling that would go a long way to make being worthless an unattractive thing.
  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 13
    Sandbag wrote: »
    I'm surprised so many people would rather be ignorant to overpay of worthless employees than know about it.

    Getting "upset" about it is exactly the kind of reaction that would prevent the gross overpay in the first place if salaries were openly discussed.

    People SHOULD want to raise hell if some worthless no load is making twice as much as someone making twice the quality/quantity/etc of work. Controlling that would go a long way to make being worthless an unattractive thing.

    that sounds terrible.
  • Ruz
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    Ruz polycounter lvl 14
    pay bands would be cool like in local government in the uk, but they would be operated per company, not nationally.
    So if you started as a junior artist you would be on pay scale 1 until you merited a promotion to pay scale 2. This way everyone would be aware of what was being paid to their workmates.
    Somehow though a lot of employers still have a stone age mentality when dealing with their workforce.
    I actually complained to my boss about my pay scale and got a 7 grand rise there and then. They had been severely underpaying me for about a year.
    That was down to me being too timid about my salary initially because I started as a junior .
  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 13
    it always comes down to: what if you want to hire this badass artist, but he wants more money then what your pay scale offers. Do you just not hire people who you want to hire and can afford to hire purely so your pay scale isn't screwed up?
  • Hoopla!
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    Hoopla! polygon
    i would never try to convince my current employer to pay me what i thought was fair after i had already been hired and agreed to a rate. if i found out i was not being paid for doing things others were i would simply take it as a sign that either i am less valuable then i thought or it is time to seek employment elsewhere and make sure i work out those details prior to my hiring.

    the time to negotiate is when you are being hired or offered a promotion. agreeing to a certain pay and terms and then complaining that others are making more is simply immature, imo.
  • Sandbag
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    Sandbag polycounter lvl 13
    aesir wrote: »
    it always comes down to: what if you want to hire this badass artist, but he wants more money then what your pay scale offers. Do you just not hire people who you want to hire and can afford to hire purely so your pay scale isn't screwed up?

    Yes. It's called fair treatment. If you cant prove with concrete reasons why he is worth so much more than any other artist producing the same quality work (in the same time), then you shouldn't hire him. I think you should offer your highest reasonable counter offer, and that is it.

    Why is that artist worth more? Because they want it? That's a huge insult to the people you already have staffed that you know deliver, you know you trust, that you know ARE putting out work at that level.

    If their level is so superior that it is measurably worth more to the company, then you would pay them accordingly.



    How is that terrible?
  • Ruz
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    Ruz polycounter lvl 14
    aesir - that bad ass artist would just be on the higher pay scale. I am not suggesting that everyone has to start as a junior, but for someone starting out it would provide a clear career goal with logical progression

    hoopla - so if you found out you were being shafted out of 10,000 you would n't be unhappy if you had family to provide for?
    It's not just that you agreed to the amount at hiring stage , but that you were not upgraded to the right salary once you had reached the same skill level as the other regular artists there. That is really irksome .
  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 13
    So what if one artist didn't negotiate hard enough to start out on the higher pay scale, and another did? Wouldn't that cause problems when they found out?

    And what if you need to hire someone for a position like... technical artist, and you already have one, and you started him at a certain pay scale, but then you need to hire another and you only have one good applicant, and he wants to be paid a lot more, or else he's walking. This guy isn't any better than your other technical artist, but you need to hire this guy to get the production moving.

    People don't fit into a one size fits all package. If you are desired for some reason, then you have room to negotiate. And values change as well. You might have hired one guy for a large amount when you couldn't find any other applicants, but then had 100 applicants for a similar position, and not needed to pay them as well.


    I'm not saying I think it's evil to have a pay scale somewhere, where everyone knows how much everyone else makes, but I think it would be really limiting for the company.
  • Ruz
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    Ruz polycounter lvl 14
    yeah I am not saying its fool proof , but its a shame when some people who are not so good at asking for money to lose out.
    i think a basic pay scale system would be better than nothing. There will always be situations like the one you mentioned.
    If the 2 guys were at the same level , the boss could always upgrade the existing guy as well

    I worked in an office years ago and we had pay scales and it seemed pretty fair overall except my colleague was getting half my salary because she was a woman, but this was the 80's:)

    She did get the money eventually though and that's because we were in a union and she complained
  • acc
    If someone is getting paid more than you when they do less work, it sucks.
    If your pay is lower than it should be because it needs to match everyone else's low pay, it sucks.
    If someone is awesome but asking for more than you paid everyone else, it sucks.
    If someone is upset because they think they deserve more than they're getting, it sucks.
    If someone doesn't take your job offer over pay issues, it sucks.
    If people walk out over pay issues, it sucks.
    If you don't talk about it, everyone gets screwed and it sucks.
    If you talk about it, everyone gets upset and it sucks.

    In conclusion: Business sucks, people suck, and working with people in a business is suck incarnate.

    But in my experience most companies do their absolute best to ensure they screw everyone as much as possible in the interest of a prettier quarterly report, so I lack sympathy for the 'don't talk about it' policy.

    On the flip side, a recession is not generally the best time to be picky.

    I started my own damn company.
  • crazyfool
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    crazyfool polycounter lvl 8
    I just think it good manners that you dont look into others salaries in your studio, your bound to find out about some peoples salaries but you keep it to yourself, you should know how much you are worth by keeping upto date with average salaries in the industry which are publushed all the time, and if you have the confidence then you should ask for it. at the moment your lucky to have a job and if you can live comfortably off it then your golden :)

    I was in a difficult situation as a junior where I was just scraping through and when I got a huge contract extension I thought they obviously value me as people are getting laid off and asked for some moneys so I could move into my own flat and not live off cans of beans every night. everything worked out thank god.

    I think whoever gets overtime pay in this industry is super lucky, many companies have it in the contract that if you need to stay late then you stay late, you need to work a weekend, you work a weekend and you dont get any extra money at all. instead it makes you look good and you can start asking for more money :)

    my 2 pence :D
  • Sandbag
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    Sandbag polycounter lvl 13
    aesir wrote: »
    So what if one artist didn't negotiate hard enough to start out on the higher pay scale, and another did? Wouldn't that cause problems when they found out?

    And what if you need to hire someone for a position like... technical artist, and you already have one, and you started him at a certain pay scale, but then you need to hire another and you only have one good applicant, and he wants to be paid a lot more, or else he's walking. This guy isn't any better than your other technical artist, but you need to hire this guy to get the production moving.

    For the first part - There wouldn't be negotiation in that sense to lose out on. You'd just be worth what you produce and the responsibilities you handle. If you're not worth more, you dont get paid more. If you do those tasks and hit that quality, you would make that pay, you wouldn't have to negotiate for it.

    For the second part - If it were my company? I wouldn't hire them. If you wont accept my perfectly reasonable offer and are going to try to extort me into it because I "need" that position filled, then I dont want that person. That's greedy for the sake of being greedy.

    If the well being of a company lives and dies by the hiring of one employee then you've got bigger problems than pay scales ;)
  • Cyrael
    the time to negotiate is when you are being hired or offered a promotion. agreeing to a certain pay and terms and then complaining that others are making more is simply immature, imo.

    well what if this is a long term position and you've been working there for a year or so and shown that you are a valuable asset, and the money that you agreed upon at the beginning is barely liveable, is that not fair enough time to try to renegotiate your terms? aka ask for a raise..
    But in my experience most companies do their absolute best to ensure they screw everyone as much as possible in the interest of a prettier quarterly report, so I lack sympathy for the 'don't talk about it' policy.

    this is soo unfortunately true.. why can't employers have their employees best interest at heart? I mean keep them happy and they'll keep you happy, no?
  • vcortis
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    vcortis polycounter lvl 9
    Hey, since we're talking about salary does anyone have a recent study on average salaries by experience level for this industry? I'm on my job search since I graduated, and after reading through these posts it made me realize I need to do some research on this.

    I don't want to ask for too much and sound like a jackass, or ask for too little and get ripped off. Just looking for some basic information on entry-level positions. Thanks.

    Edit: I've seen the Game Developer Survey. Problem with that is there averages are for 3 years and under. Not first year-fresh blood.
  • jipe
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    jipe polycounter lvl 11
    Companies try to stifle wage talk because it increases their power. This isn't abstract socialist rambling; it translates directly to people's comfort with asking to be compensated fairly. The less information people have, the less likely they are to mutually benefit from the work agreement. Preventing employees from talking about pay is illegal precisely because the whole idea of the free market is based on rational actors making informed decisions based on freedom of information. This doesn't just mean consumers, but also employers and employees.
    crazyfool wrote:
    I think whoever gets overtime pay in this industry is super lucky, many companies have it in the contract that if you need to stay late then you stay late, you need to work a weekend, you work a weekend and you dont get any extra money at all.
    Unfortunately I think it says a lot that many people describe OT pay as "lucky". If your contract is worded so terribly as to lock you into basically unlimited weekly hours, why would you sign it in the first place without even trying to negotiate? I understand that very few of us can afford to be picky, especially considering recent economic conditions, but that doesn't mean we let companies walk all over us. Businesses structure contracts in their best interest, just as you would if you were giving them a contract (or if you were running your own business). You can negotiate more than pay; proper working conditions start with people carefully reading their contracts and not blindly signing them right away.
    Sandbag wrote:
    If you wont accept my perfectly reasonable offer and are going to try to extort me into it because I "need" that position filled, then I dont want that person. That's greedy for the sake of being greedy.
    This is a bit of tangential issue to the main post, but I don't quite understand the logic here. Obviously as an owner you have an amount you'd like to pay, but if you really need that employee then you're probably willing to pay more to avoid the project crashing and burning. If the supply of proper technical artists is low and a company really needs one -- and immediately -- they're probably going to have to pay more. It's not greed, it's the reality of the market. This is why you'll see some freelancers making absolute bank on contract jobs, especially with stuff like commercials where the turnaround is extremely quick and demand for skilled talent is high.
  • Zack Fowler
  • Thegodzero
    At my parents business a few years back they hired someone for a position that a number of other people held, but hired them at a higher pay than some of the more senior people were getting paid. Knowing that people would find out in time they just did the rite thing and gave everyone in that position a raise of the x amount that was the difference between the new person and the lowest senior person. Everyone was happy to get a raise and felt and were a bit more productive for a few weeks. If they didn't, and people found out then there would have been a drop in productivity and some people might have demanded even more of a raise. In the end the costs of the raise were less than the costs of not doing it.

    Rant/
    Just something that you don't see with larger company's because they cant see how it would help them. You don't want people to have to ask for more money come raise time you want them to be happy with the raise you give them.

    A classic game artists way of making more money is to move around a lot to up their pay. That's bullshit that even is a practical option, you shouldn't feel the need to have to leave a company just to make what you deserve. It really does say a lot about the industry's care of its employees.
    /Rant
  • Zoid
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    Zoid polycounter lvl 10
    discuss w/e you feel comfortable with others, but DON'T let the management know.. Besides,
    Ghostscape wrote: »
    "I should get it"
    exactly! a fairness argument is NOT leverage, quitting is. if you would work for free that is what you are worth to management.

    i worked as a lead position and a buddy of mine was making just a bit more (2%?). He got another offer & the boss negotiated ~40% more to stay, (he still left) but I was shocked at the amount, so loyalty means nothing. Since that is how management works that is how you must work.
    You are leveraging your worth.

    The knowledge my buddy and i shared put me in that upper position during negotiation at my review.. never mention "person A got X" and never let on that the "peons" discussed wages,
    [and of course management wants you scarred to discuss it]

    Words from a CEO buddy who owns Realty company "Pay them 1/3 what they make you."
    vcortis wrote: »
    average salaries
    fresh out of college, 19-22 and capable as entry level in a small sized game company doing modeling/textures $25k-40k/year for the first year depending on the city you are in.
    animators get a bit more (+% unknown) because they are in less supply.
    after 2 years experience and you can handle it + growing (you have 2 good reviews) you could negotiate yourself up +100% if you are really excellent.
  • Eric Chadwick
    Added a link to this thread on the wiki,
    http://wiki.polycount.net/GameBusiness

    Some more links there that might interest people.
  • Sandbag
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    Sandbag polycounter lvl 13
    jipe wrote: »
    This is a bit of tangential issue to the main post, but I don't quite understand the logic here. Obviously as an owner you have an amount you'd like to pay, but if you really need that employee then you're probably willing to pay more to avoid the project crashing and burning. If the supply of proper technical artists is low and a company really needs one -- and immediately -- they're probably going to have to pay more. It's not greed, it's the reality of the market. This is why you'll see some freelancers making absolute bank on contract jobs, especially with stuff like commercials where the turnaround is extremely quick and demand for skilled talent is high.

    The omitted second half of the quoted statement is an important part of the point. What kind of terrible situation would a company be in that they're so desperate to fill a spot that they'd let someone exploit them?

    To say "I know this is what you want to pay me, and how this is based on the worth of my intended production, but I dont care, I will only work for xx dollars" IS greedy. Telling the company that you dont care about their value structure because you have a set value in your mind? Of course this is all assuming the offer is reasonable, but in that situation how is that not greedy? I would say the very definition of greed would be asking for more than you or a product is worth.

    If a potential employee and an employer have such completely different views of value then it would only cause problems in the future anyway, and to me would not be worth it.

    And to just say "well give everyone else a raise to match" gets very difficult if the entire company is operating on a pay-for-actual-worth scale. Does your worth go up because someone looking to get hired has a different perception of their worth?
  • aesir
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