Lurking Animators Look here! - WIP exercise
polycounter lvl 10
So this is an animation piece I've been working on and I noticed that some others have posted some animation pieces and got awesome crits - I would love to get the same... want to sharpen this piece up...
*note - in part 5 - the rig is broken and I realize his foot is f*ed up.. I'm working on fixing it without losing the animation. Also I have to animate the last piece where the crate comes to a rest and he comes in exhausted after it, but I figure while I'm animating it you guys could take a look at what I have thus far.
Thanks!
http://vimeo.com/10849608
*note - in part 5 - the rig is broken and I realize his foot is f*ed up.. I'm working on fixing it without losing the animation. Also I have to animate the last piece where the crate comes to a rest and he comes in exhausted after it, but I figure while I'm animating it you guys could take a look at what I have thus far.
Thanks!
http://vimeo.com/10849608
Replies
There's a pretty good sense of weight with the animations so nice work on the push/pulls--I'm not an animator so you'll have to look to others for more pointers on that part of the sequence.
What caught my eye was the end of the sequence where he's bounding down after the dolly, it looks about half speed of what it should be. He has a loooong airtime and it doesn't convey urgency, like he's upset or scrambling after the dolly, it just looks like he's sort of skipping down the slop in a manner unconnected to the dolly.
Mostly it's the speed, or lack thereof, and the angle. As a cartoon character if he's scrambling for the dolly I expect him to be tilted forward at a pretty severe angle to show just how intent he is on recovering the out of control delivery. Holding on to his hat is a nice touch, but again let's see him really look like he's scrambling and then maybe have the hat slip a little bit or even fly off until he catches it and re-places it on his head while still running?
One last small thing: just do hard cuts between takes. The faded transitions are distracting; when you're presenting animation remove any possible distractions.
i agree that he`s too floaty in that last part. definitely needs more weight and speed there. if the box is going down that fast, the guy should be going the same speed, if not faster, showing a sence of urgency.
the one where he is pulling the box up. I think the stretching of the arms and legs is a little too much, but thats just personal preference. its not something that you HAVE to fix.
Also, on the first one. the box is heavy, and on wheels. but there are a few parts where it sorda stops suddenly between character steps. with inertia, it shouldnt really stop fully at all.
keep at it though. over all its prety good stuff!
my 2 crits- pulling a crate uphill- not only that but facing forwards while doing it- no-one would do this, it's so uncomfortable.. plus the crate would slide off (doesn't look tied down anyway). I know its a cartoon but doing things that aren't natural will draw attention to them.
2nd point is the same as gauss, the run downhill- just doesnt look right. It'd be funnier if right after the crate he came rolling and tumbling down the slope, but I like the idea of his hat coming off and him grabbing it back too.
keep it up though, this will be great when it's finished
I was actually thinking that the run was way too slow, but I wanted to get others opinions, so I'll def fix the timing and speed on the downhill runs.
I'll take another look at the stretchiness in the arms and legs - your right it is excessive, I wanted to get that cartoony feel, but I might of gone too far, and Slipsius you're definitely right with the start and stop on the first clip, I wasn't sold on it, but now that you've pointed it out I'll def. change it.
Rooster - I agree completely, my only issue with the pulling the crate is that i wanted to convey both the push and the pulling in the same clip, do you think adding a strap so that the box is tied down would be best or having him walk in reverse up the hill? I also did it because when you get really tired of pushing/pulling an object you try everything, you contort your body in awkward position, in any attempt to try to get it to the destination faster - so thats what I was also trying to convey was his desperation/exhaustion.
I dig the idea of the hat coming off and him grabbing it, I'll make sure to add that it.
Thanks for the suggestions!
First and foremost, you should definitely get some reference. I will give you my opinion of your shot, but remember that this is just how I feel about it, and you should check what I'm saying against actual reference footage, that's where the money is.
-I think the driving force throughout the first shot should be the pelvis. Try to keep this in mind at all times... for in your animation the guy grabs the cart and his spine is in a C shape, then he pulls and his pelvis stays fairly still... and then he uncurls his spine slightly, and THEN the cart starts to move. When really it should be his pelvis that is leading the way
-When the cart starts to roll, the way it takes off feels very linear, it's a heavy object so it should start and stop moving very slowly. By the same token it should continue that momentum even if the guy stops pulling it- it's on wheels after all right?. Currently it looks like the cart speeds up and slows down.
-when the guy pulls the cart, his hands feel locked onto that bar, like they never rotate with the rest of the character in any way, they're just static and lifeless.
-the cart should probably never be completely still while it's on the hill, it should always be rolling UP the hill, or DOWN the hill (even if it's very subtle)
-the stretchiness of the arms/legs needs to remain consistent, currently it looks like you are just stretching them out more and less whenever it's convenient
-I agree with what others have said about the way he is pulling/pushing the cart- what's to keep it from sliding off? why would he do that??
-I also agree with what's been said about the ending, currently it looks like a moon jump rather than a run for a lost cart. He needs to have a lot more steps taken much more quickly
Sorry if any of what I said sounds harsh, try not to get discouraged. And remember. GET REFERENCE!
At 00:26 when I saw the cart speeding down the farthest ramp I was expecting him to be running after it far more quickly than he did (he came in around 00:29, 3 seconds later), especially considering how much faster the cart was traveling than he was. I think having him appear a half a second to a second after the cart speeds down the ramp might help for presentation/comedic value.
And to be clear, the run animation isn't necessarily bad in my opinion. It was cartoony' and reminded me a bit of the animation style in the Gorillaz - Clint Eastwood music video - fast forward to 3:08 to see what I mean: [ame]
Hi Very nice work , I am not an animator , but one day I would like ot learn that too , I just wanted to tell you that as , outsider comment , the last part when the guy chases the box , I would go for a more agitated and fast running after it than a ungravitational jump walk , doesn't look much funny in my opinion or don't fit ....I'd go for something more like the cartoons of Tom & Jerry or Will Coyote etc....
Agreed I'll def make that change I didn't catch it but the pelvis does get kinda far forward and doesn't do the driving. Secondly good point about the easing. I need to make the cart ease a bit more out.. Third the hand don't have barely any movement -excellent catch! and it doesn't sound harsh, honestly I posted here to get some harsh crits to try and make this as great as I can. Thanks for looking and the great suggestions! I'll be sure to fix it up soon (hopefully tonight).
I'll def edit it better before the final - that was an earlier suggestion to go with quicker cuts so you don't lose interest I will most def take advantage of your suggestion. and Thanks for the gorillaz ref! I am going to fix that run for sure.
This is def what I had in mind when I was planning out this shot, something very cartoony and not extremely real - so I'll step up the speed and hopefully accomplish this. Thanks!
I liked this one, you've got a good sense of weight and timing. What you could add to the up-hill cart pushing sequence is having the cart move down a bit sometimes too. You could have it move down a bit and the character could be pushed down with it and then have the character struggle even more to get it up. Also the box in the cart is not animated at all. It looks like it's glued to the cart... I would have it moved slightly when the character is pushing it.
I won't repeat what's already been said, so let me just add this:
In the part where he's pulling it up the hill, my biggest issue is the way he's trying to pull it up. Try pulling something supposedly very heavy upwards with your arms in that direction. Your shoulders might pop or your elbows might snap, but even if its more possible than that, I still think it'd be really uncomfortable. If you wanted him pulling it up from the front, I'd suggest have him facing the cart and walking mostly backwards.
I'll also add that, I know some people said they didn't like all the stretching--I agree this is partly a stylistic choice that's up to you, but my thoughts are that it's too exaggerated because its NOTICEABLE. This kinda thing is usually meant to be more subtle so you FEEL the stretching, but you don't SEE it. The only reason, imo, it should be noticeable is if you're purposely trying to emulate the 30's-40's style of crazy stretching (Which I wouldn't suggest if you're still just practicing animation).
Nice movement overall, though! So keep it up
Some suggestions: (hopefully I don't repeat what others have said)
fade in fade out - I'm guessing what your going for is kinda the scooby doo thing where the bad guy is chasing the kids and they keep popping in and out of doors? If that is your intent think about taking out the fade in fade to help sell it.
Anticipation - To me, everything is building up to the moment where he looses control of the crate and he runs after it. But it catches me so off guard it seems random (could be the fades).
So my suggestions is each time he is pushing/pulling in the various direction, show him messing up but recovering, getting worse each time. And just before he goes out of frame the last time show him struggling the most. Let him go out of frame, pause, then let hell break loose.
This is a classic "rule of three" bit where you do something funny 2 times then the 3rd time catch the audience by surprise. Give us hints as to what is about to happen.
Hopefully this was helpful. Don't have to take the suggestions
Keep it up.
I have several suggestions and tips, some of which have probably already been mentioned. But let me start by saying that I think this is a pretty good animation and with some small changes and polish could be a strong piece for you.
Always use reference! It makes your life easier, and gives stupid youtube videos actual justification.
I drew some beautiful stick figures to better show my points! =D
First, I agree that the stretchy arms are a bit much. I think they are detracting from the force that your character is putting into the box, and DEFINITELY should not stretch in the second shot when he is pushing the box uphill. I know this is because you have your IKs locked to the box, so move you torso to match better. You should only use stretch when there is an extreme PULL on an object. A better way of showing the change in force is to compress and lock out the arms at the different stages of pressure.(see example 2)
Secondly, the second shot starts off with him up against the box. I think it would be better to to have his arms extended so you can better show the anticipation and build up for the push. If a motion feels lacking or sudden always check to make sure you have proper anticipation.(see example 1)
As stated before, the pull uphill needs to be changed. I suggest turning the character around and tilting the box. Keep the character low and leaned far back, otherwise you will loose the weight of the object and the character will be top heavy and look like he should get pulled over. Tilting the box will also fix the problem of the box slipping off.(see example 1)
As far as the run goes, currently you have the force of his leap still going up. It is a decent run for a flat plane, but does not entirely work for such an extreme slope. There are several options, if you want a bouncing run the character would be leaning back into the slope to keep his center of gravity over their feet and would not be jumping up as much as just straight out and down. It is impossible to keep a "run" with each step being a 6foot fall.
You could also do a cartoony suicidal downhill run. If this is the case keep the character low, remember he is not leaping up, but out and down. To leap up would actually make him reach his goal slower and ruin his stride. So, low, bent over, leaned FAR forward in a sprint. Head way in front of center of gravity. (see example 4)
Other then that you have just some minor feet popping when they leave the ground, check your graph editor. I would also suggest making the foot movements more frantic and make them slap down harder with less time in the air. If you think about it, he wants both feet on the ground as much as possible. Also keep in mind that when dealing with heavy objects the power and strength all comes from the legs, not the arms. Hope this helps.
Edit(2 may not be clear)- Think of example 2 as a rowing motion while backpedaling. Just make each step in-between each row, just before the weight of the box transfers back to pulling on him.
yes the scooby doo thing is kind of what i had in mind with the fades.. kind of showing a passing of time.
Thanks for the suggestions all! I've tried to incorporate most (if not all) of them, I only had time to retouch up the first 2 scenes this week (crazy OT at work). Lets hope this next weeks gets me more time in the shoes of this mailman. I think I'm going to competely rework section 3 and having him walking it up backwards.
Also I havn't added any slide to the box itself yet as I'm not sure if I want to do that as well, but we'll see how it plays out.
Warhamster: great diagram thanks!
All of you have awesome suggestions (which I'm trying to work in) and I really appreciate you taking the time to look and comment.
without further adieu here are parts I and II reworked.
Reworked link
Maybe in the first shot pull his head back at the start of the pull?
Also still have some stretching arms at the end of shot 2 that should go.
Good work.
your pose and timing deliver motion, but not realism of weight transfer.
many of your sources of strength/pivots are not shifting in convincing rhythms to create the force he drives. It is something we cant really teach you, but we have to show you.
reference is key.
just the opening shot, when he grasps the bars the elbows have 0 follow-through.. capturing subtleties like that and even emphasizing them are what it takes to get very convincing and delicious animation.
warhamster has pointed out some good basics, driving force be from the hips or feet, slinky (wave principals) out against the pivot of the ankle (very hard arcs to do since the pelvis is the COG joint typically so making it pivot around a foot can be painfully technical)
what traditional animation experience do you have? you might benefit from just some flip book tutorials, bouncing ball, falling leaf, jumping flour sac....just the motion of his leaps don't convey accurate simple harmonic motion.
if i have time ill take some screen grabs and make some traceovers to point out your arcs and timing but wont be till later today
I think you´re animation-skills will grow as you do more stuff. But try to make some interesting nice easy-to-read poses and try different stagings to illustrate the idea of the animation better.
And try to exagurate your poses
Keep animating buddy
Secondly I wanted to post this because I got inspired to do some more parkour stuff one day and just wanted to do a simple 60 frame backflip but then add in another idling character and some motivation for him to backflip..
It may be a little slow right before the apex of his flip.. so if i'm sensing that it probably needs some subtle timing rechanging but let me know what you guys think.
http://vimeo.com/11589802
Warhamster: Thanks!
Zoid: Unfortunately this is not my first, this is me trying to experiment with the whole weight work thing, I didn't want to do a standard guy moves box animation... so I opted to go for mailman delivers heavy package up big hill then loses it because he gets scared by dogs and has to chase package downhill ;-) I've tried to add some more followthrough into the elbows as you have suggested which has hopefully worked its way into the rest of the shots. I have done a bunch of bouncing balls and traditional weight stuff, but I wanted to take on a fun version of this as previously stated. Thanks for the comments and paintovers are always welcome!
DerDude: Thanks! First to address the staging, I agree completely that this is not the best staging for the shot, the reason why I staged it this way is because I really wanted to push silhouettes with this exercise and try to see what I could do by keeping the camera stationry thoughout the entire animation, somewhat reminiscent of some chuck jones/tex avery type stuff where the humor is more in the gag and the simple staging aides this. Unfortunatly I guess my choice of simple staging didn't work out the best :-)... Secondly I fixed the eyes, because you were right it was difficult to tell where he was looking. Lastly I definitely incorporated some of your painted poses into the reworked shots and will post tomorrow thanks so much!
sorry for the WOT... Thanks for looking.
A cool clip none the less
I'm not really fond of the line of action right before the landing, it looks a bit uncomfortable. It looks like the pelvis is draging behind and it should be infront of the body due to the kick.
Goraaz mention the tilting of the pink guy. It looks like he's going to start a run but then he walks instead.
Right now Max feels stiff, I would use more of the spine controls throughout. Don't feel scared to over-exaggerated your poses, It will help your animation. If you watch some slow capture reference, the human body is capable of some fairly crazy distortion, the human eye just does not register it because it happens so fast(watch the face punch one, my favorite!). The same should happen in your animation.
On the landing Max lands on his toes and in front of his center of gravity, if you are doing a back flip from that height you would never land on your toes. I don't think you need to move him back to keep him balanced, just make him sink down into his center of gravity before coming up.
More overlap! =D
Oh also, there is a pop in his hands when he rotates over, you need to play with his should rotation to keep his hands from popping. Also always check your tangents in the graph editor.
http://vimeo.com/11611506
Goraaz: Thanks for the input! it seems to be the general consensus that he needs to dip farther on impact so I'll make that change. Also I think the reason that he looks strange is because the intention was to have him start to run, which is why his weight is so far forward, but then I cut the clip so you never see him start the run.. have to do something about that.
Bejkon: I'll take another look at his line of action, which may be why he feels slow to me, not driving with the hips enough. Thanks for pointing that out. And yes his start to run didn't come across as well as intended..
Blenderhead: Thanks so much! Which characters head is too straight in the profile the one doing the backflip or the character who throws the ball?
WarHamster: I agree its an awkward cut because you're expecting more, which could be why the start to run isn't coming across, I think you've got a good point about not having him chase the ball, and ending the clip there.
I'll also add some exxageration to the poses, I can see why he feels stiff. I always have a harder time loosening his back up than I do the moom rig.. its always interesting haha. speaking of slowmo capture reference check out the refs in this thread:
http://www.11secondclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=8273
slowmo reference is definitely interesting.
I'll try to shift some keys to incorporate some more overlap... you can never have too much! I'll also double check the graph editor for that pop, I think it may be because I had to key that entire section of the arm at that point because I couldn't get the rotation I wanted through manipulating the splines in the graph editor (and I basically live in the graph editor for the last 10 to 20 percent of every animation, gotta get nice and friendly with it ;-)) Thanks for the great crits!!
Thanks again everyone for the great input.
and here's the final, or rather where i'm at so far - I'm not quite happy yet so I"ll probably still tweak over the weekend, and I'd love more suggestions if anyone has them - I know I still have the fix a slight bit of stretching on the push up the hill (warhamster). I'm also gonna toy with moving the box around on the cart now as well.
Thanks!
I'll also be updating the backflip shortly.
Lots of improvement on each shot, like when he pulls it up the hill, and the run at the end. I know you're hoping to finish it soon, but there's still a few things sticking out at me:
First, the first cut when he starts pushing it up the hill. I know everyone bugged you to not have that slow fade-in, but I don't think it works with him popping up in place. The other shots work cause he starts off screen, but it doesn't feel right with him popping into place like that. Either have him start pushing the cart from offscreen (or nearly offscreen), or have some fun with fades again :P
Second, as you already said you plan on working on, there's still some unnecassary strething in his legs as he pushes the cart up the hill. Otherwise, that part's looking really nice!
Third, the way you have him pulling the cart up the hill from behind looks a lot better--but the cart still feels odd that it doesn't fall off the back. Maybe just add some tape or some kind of restraint to the cart model? That way this part won't detract from what's important.
Fourth, I like how he nearly lets go near the end up the backwards lift, but something doesn't quite seem right about it. It seems to pop. Take another look at the distance his body travels in the frames you've alloted there, notably his arm. You can only make him cover a distance so fast before our eyes don't pick up on his arm moving from one spot to the next. This might actaully be the place to use stretching--you might want to stretch out his arm towards the cart so our eyes can follow the distance in that short an amount of time.
And finally, the part where his hat flies off at the bottom of the second hill--I'm not sure that that's necassary. I know you want to add a cute detail, but imo, it just makes me think that, if his hat is gonna fly off, why does it take so long to do it? It should have flown off well before then.
A lot of this is just nitpicky stuff, so don't let it discourage you. You've gone really far with this piece, and are so close to the end! What impresses me most is how you've stuck to this piece after all the critique--I have a really bad habit of working on something, getting told it's crap, and then saying fack it! and working on something new. So, really great job!!
Other than that my overall impression of your sequence is very positive. Keep on animating!
Good luck!
This is the completed backflip with the suggestions you guys made,
main camera soccer backflip
and this is the main camera so you can see his entire uninterrupted action -
I fixed some of the rotation issues, so there are nice arcs, I've made him sink further after the landing, added more follow through on the arms, also got rid of the smaller guys start to run so its not an awkward cut in the middle of his action.
Thanks for the crits Mezz and Goraaz on the push weight clip.
Mezz - about the clips fading - this piece is actually going to be interspersed throughout my demo reel, so there will be fades in and out of the pushes and pulls up the hill - but they will be cuts on the runs down the hill because you're right, it doesn't work to have him just appear.
I agree about the tape thing as well, i'll try to come up with something creative.. thanks :-)
On the pull I'll see if either adding some time, or stretching will help so its not so jolting of a move.
With the hat flying off - it actually does at the beginning, but he catches it before it flies off and he steadies it on his head.. thats why i followed through and had it actually fall off in the end, but you're right, I think it may be too much and too slow to help/be worth it.
Thanks for the kind words :-)
Goraaz - thanks for taking a look again! I'll try to go back in and see if I can make some more improvements on the weight to the run segments, I think I definitely made strides over the first one, but clearly its not there yet. Thanks!
and it seems the run I had wasn't working and didn't sit right with many of you, so I went back and reworked the run for more of a chuck jones' style, something similar to what warhamster and others suggested.. tell me what you think. I think it may be a few frames too fast, but i'm biased
thanks for looking.
http://vimeo.com/12352864
I like the direction you're going with this, but I think there are still some kinks to work out. It's a bit hard to crit, cause it's not on screen for very long and it's kinda small. However, I think what it needs is less up and down movement in the body, and more movement in the legs.
His body moves up and down a noticeable amount, but I don't think his legs are taking the proper amount of weight for the movement. ...squinting at the little guy now, I think it might actually be that his legs need to move faster. If the style you're going for is Chuck Jones, then his legs need to be darn speedy. You don't have time for as many poses in each step like a walk or a slower run. Try cutting it down to four poses for each step, or even three if you're feeling adventurous. See how that affects the run!
I'm a bit tired right now... so I hope this is helpful! lol
Blocked out fight:
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Creature Run:
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What I am going to fix on the run
-tail, havn't touched it for the transition phase
-hitch in right foot right before contact
-strenghtening a few of the poses a bit.
-front view have the face rotate a bit more to the right (creature right) on passing
It's more likely then you think.
The blocking looks good, especially the beginning. I find it hard to finish my blocking without splining it to early.
But I'm not sure about the staging and the camera movement you got. For crits you should consider just have it from on angle without any cuts.
I think the walk and the transition looks good but the head flails a bit to much in the run, it looks a bit unfocused imo. Also maybe space out the timing on the legs so they hit the ground a bit further apart.
Heres a cool clip of a dog running in slowmo:
http://vimeo.com/1293858
I think the tail moves around too much. Most animal tails are steadied when running and don't pick up that much body motion. From an animals perspective it makes sense, you don't want it whipping around knocking into things and getting injured. It also heavily effects balance and with it wildly moving, it might throw off their center of balance.
Dog:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWs_DTyAb9M
Cheetah:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxFArfwpjPU
Vig: I am indeed using Maya, but I had no idea I could blend between animations, that would have saved sooo much work. it was really difficult trying to get that transition to look right. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll look into it for next time!
Good point about the tail, and awesome ref. I actually used a cheetah as ref for the creature, so that's perfect. Thanks!
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