What are the hipoly source models worth?
polycounter lvl 18
Hey guys,
I have a question. It´s been here couple of times, but never with an example. I´ve bumped into this and I´d like to know what are the hipoly source models worth? I mean, usually when you make lowpoly and maps, you´re done. you get paid for lowpoly and maps. In my opinion hipoly source models are quite different category, right? now lets have an example:
I´m not selling this, it´s quite old, but it can serve as an example. so how would you calculate a price of model like this? let´s stick with this example and give me some numbers if you can. don´t hesitate to say what you think, it´s old so I won´t take personally any number you say, ok?
And theoretical question:
If you were selling hipoly source model, how many times would it be more expensive than it´s lowpoly version with maps?
thank you, guys.
I have a question. It´s been here couple of times, but never with an example. I´ve bumped into this and I´d like to know what are the hipoly source models worth? I mean, usually when you make lowpoly and maps, you´re done. you get paid for lowpoly and maps. In my opinion hipoly source models are quite different category, right? now lets have an example:
I´m not selling this, it´s quite old, but it can serve as an example. so how would you calculate a price of model like this? let´s stick with this example and give me some numbers if you can. don´t hesitate to say what you think, it´s old so I won´t take personally any number you say, ok?
And theoretical question:
If you were selling hipoly source model, how many times would it be more expensive than it´s lowpoly version with maps?
thank you, guys.
Replies
The high poly model itself isnt actually that useful without putting in extra time and effort into making it game-ready, or texturing it for films or whatever the person wants to do with it.
I've never sold models by themselves before so I can't help with giving you a estimation.
Any other opinions?
Usually in my experience, human models are generally made to a pre-existing rig, so they can share animations.
Not sure how much value a high rez one has on its own.
Normally from what I've heard from freelances who do animation projects if they want all the 3D files you charge them anywhere to 3 to 5 times as much, but comparing making animations to models is a bit different.
Originals always cost more, because like you say, they're worth more.
But... totally depends on your situation. How much you want more work from them, how much other work you have lined up, etc.
You could just apply your hourly rate, how much time it took you to make it, plus any time savings you would get from reusing the model in the future, and use that as the price.
Your client could use sections, render to texture in varying sizes and the original sculpt could be modified/new parts added to give a completely different look.
Pricewise it depends what you value the work at;
man hours Vs market value
GCMP - Thank you very much. Freebie - That´s what I thought, I just wanted to hear that word from someone else. Do you think that any publisher might need source files as backup, because that´s what the client is telling me? To me it´s very silly excuse. Has it ever happened to you, or have you heard about it? Because I would backup lowpoly files with maps that are going to be used in game. that would be my no.1 insurance, and not the files I could start from again. unless I wanted to modify these hipoly models as you said. thanks again.
I guess it also comes down to if you think you were properly compensated for the time spent creating both the high res and the low res.
If you are worried about them kit bashing it to high heaven and you losing work out of it then ask for a new contract to be written up about the high poly and you can express the terms and conditions of its use to protect you and the model.
It might just be in case there are issues then they can sort it out themselves, its not like illustration where you can say all alterations must go through me, as its game art and is gonna pass through lots of peoples hands before its finished completely.
Whether they wish to take your model and turn it into a cube or to make their own tweaks for further iterations / versions, doesnt come into it unless previously agreed upon also.
Even if they can take your model as a 'template' and make many more at a low price - thats the name of the game these days - as long as you got paid for your time, nobodies the looser.
You mentioned that your client only paid for the low, well if thats the case, and that was agreed upon, and hes asking for the high now, youll have to agree on a price which should be like i mentioned above, equivalent hourly rate ?
It would seem a little strange to me if an artst approached me and said, well I charge 45 an hour for high poly sculpting but only 30 an hour for low poly / texture work - which is what i think your getting at ??
Ghostscape - thanks for opinon. the models are actually things that can easily be edited to look like new ones.
Hazardous - actually, you made a good point. The thing (you couldn´t know and I probably should have mentioned) is that I was paid per asset. that was dealt, hp files were never mentioned as part of it. And there were many things I added that weren´t in the concept, stuff reworked because of his bad decisions... and I didn´t care, didn´t charge those things (Well, those times are over of course, I think it was about time to learn that it´s just a business and there´s no place for fair and polite negotiating). and now I´m supposed to feel like the bad guy holding the hipoly files as hostages trying to make a fortune on it? no way...
Afterall the highpolys are part of the work you did for him dont you think so?
No, I don´t think so, and believe me if you knew how much he paid me - you would think differently.
the highpoly is a source file for your game assets at the same level as your unflattened PSD, if they ask for "source files" and that was included in the contract you get paid what you agreed on, if not, charge
With a price i cant really help.
Disco Stu - I wasn´t trying to squeeze him - I´m not a crook. He asked me to give him the hipoly models after 5 tasks I finished for him. Each time I delivered the lowpoly files and maps, got paid for it and moved to another task. and now I was asked to give hipoly models for all 5 tasks at once for free. if we made a deal also on the hipoly models, he would ask for them at the end of a task and wouldn´t assign me a new task unless he had everything from the previous one he already paid for.
But I wasn´t trying to complain about this concrete case. I was just curious whether anyone here ever sold hipoly model to lowpoly models and what how you calculated the price. Apparently the most preferred way is to use hour rate and hours spent working on it.
I would probably just let em have it and not worry about it too much, High poly stuff isnt hard to create on most projects and as Haz said, this is what our industry is all about now, unlike illustration where you have to protect your work, in models you are expected to share your files. I guess end of the day I would much rather have a happy client than a pissed off one.
Would this not raise questions aswell from the clients perspective? why is this guy holding onto his model from me? did he create it legally? havent I already paid for this service?
I feel your pain here man, truly. As do probably most freelance artist here would, But its irrelevant - you agreed on the price and to do the work, and you completed it at that dodgy low price.
Using THAT afterward as weight against why or why not you should hand over something only makes YOU look bad. (as rediculous as that sounds)
You mentioned your going back through history reading conversations and whatnot to clarify things, which honestly only makes the relationship between yourself and your client worse, especially when you start pulling quotes from msn histories etc.
If your having to do this, it sounds more like your agreement wasnt too clear between yourself and your client, which sorry to say again, makes YOU come across unorganised / unprofessional, and maybe inexperienced, and you definately dont want that.
I would do your best to salvage what you can, try and work something out thats at least amicable for both parties and move onwards.
P.S I'm definately not digging at you man, I've been in numerous similar situations myself in the past and am passing on to you information / points of view that have been passed on to me - in hope that at least you can glean something useful from it.
Good Luck !! All I can say is remember this situation and prepare for next time!
do you have an actual signed contract or is this a just thru chat thing? if so i would advise always getting a legit contract made with all details of the job. saves on confusion like this.
i personaly think this could go either way and the contract would be the deciding factor, without one its simply him wanting something he thinks he has a right to, and you refusing to give something you think he does not have right to.
no way to pick a winner
If the model was created using the artist's EXISTING low/high assets, then the artist can charge extra for it, or keep it; but only if THE ARTIST explained this to THE CLIENT beforehand, not the other way around.
if you say you sell only the final model/texture and they say yes its that way.
This doesn't help you here but maybe for future projects.
Ask before you start working WHAT they want and then talk about what it costs
No matter if hourly rate or not, it does only count what your deal was for.
and pricing about a highpoly for itself is (working hours * hourly rate) and the hourly rate should be connected to the "global" value of the work for the market (and of course your skill).
In illustration this is common practice. When buying an illustration it's usually only for a specific publication and a certain number of copies. The work could not be altered in any way or used in another context. (It's not clip-art) If the author/publisher wants to use it again or print more copies the artist will be paid again. (might be less than the initial cost)
I see no reason why game art / 3D should be any different.
No matter what price you've put on this work, he's paid you for the time to make it, plus the rights and permissions for it. So, unless you've stated before the contract has been started (I'm guessing you didn't), all the work that he's paid you - or for the time it takes for you to create it - is his.
Yeah, it might suck that you've costed it as a low amount of cash. But you've learned a good lesson for contracts that you make in future. Fortunately, it's usually a lesson all freelancers learn early on.
I think good advice, for future projects, is to make up a contract and have him (or whoever) sign it as both a sign that he understands it and will comply to your set terms. It often helps when you both know exactly what's expected.
This contract declares:
- What game title/application he uses it in
- That he/you can or can't resell it
- That if he wants to use it in other games/apps, he pays you X amount when that happens
- What deliverables he should expect to have at the end of the contract (if you include source files, add your fee for both PSD's and mesh files)
- How many variants he should expect (price this up accordingly, if it's just texture variants)
- What stages of the contract he should be expected to approve (high res, low res, unwrap, texture) - After each stage is approved, it will cost Y amount to go back and change. Having to change something on a mesh, after you start texturing is a pain in the ass
- How many revisions/edits he gets - Anything over this and he has to pay Z amount per edit.
For these types of "contracts" that I have to draw up (Ones that aren't given to me, from their legal team/whatever), I like to put payment terms and an estimation, both in time and cost, for the client's benefit. This is also echoed in my quote at the end of the contract, along with anything set in X, Y and Z that needs to be amended.Sucks you have that experience
Well, what you´re saying is not quite correct. See, I wasn´t complaining about the price being too low. Like I said, I didn´t mind even to make some "small" variations on the models that weren´t dealt before the task. and I did it for free because it didn´t feel like a big deal, you know. I wasn´t complaining about being paid low for what he wanted. I just didn´t like him wanting something he didn´t order. In fact, if he told me at the beginning that he´s going to want the hipoly models - read: if the hipoly models were in the list of files he told me he wants to have sent at the end of the task - , I would ask for more. so this wasn´t a dirty game from me as you make it look/as it might sound to you.
And about me not being totaly sure about the contract. I see why you came to that - I said that I checked the mail communication history. yes, I did, but only because he said that he thought that we dealt on hipoly models to be included in the price at the time I began working on the first task. what was I supposed to do? argue without checking? Anyone can make a mistake and no matter how sure you might feel about something, if you have the chance, you´ll check to see whether you´re right, rather than excuse when it shows up that you were wrong and made an ass of you. I was sure that hipoly was not part of the deal, but I checked it. Just like when you check whether the main door isn´t open before you go to bed. Does it mean that you leave the door open just like that all the time? No it doesn´t. Just like me checking the earlier messages doesn´t mean I didn´t read it or understand properly.
I know you´re not trying to dig at me, and you´re also right that you have only informations from one side. That´s why I didn´t want anyone to decide who´s right or wrong (well, because you have only informations from me + the fact that I knew who was right all the time). And I didn´t want to complain about anything either. I just wanted to know how to calculate price of hipoly models and if any of you guys ever heard about publishers needing hipoly stuff so they could back it up (which doesn´t sound quite right to me, because I´d rather back-up lowpoly files and maps twice).
Rhinokey - nope, I don´t have a contract, just chat thing like you said.
PeterK - thanks for your opinion, but this was kinda the other way around. I offered them services, they said how much they pay per low with maps. no hipoly was mentioned and 3 months and several tasks later I was asked to give the hipoly models from all the task for free. see what I´m talking about? But like I said I don´t want to get more into this "who´s right/who´s wrong" thing. it wasn´t the thing I wanted to talk about.
rollin - thanks you for opinion, it´s like if I hear me talking.
yiannisk - it was their concept. and you´re totaly right on that glynnsmith´ post
ivars - I´m not sure how that kind of think would work in case of models that can be easily modified, interchange some stuff between each other and you have practically a completely new thing. but thank you for your opinon.
glynnsmith - thank you for this amalgam (including the word, first time I heard it - english is not my native language), it all sounds just like the right things to do. but just like yiannisk said, those are probably the things that might repel practically every client. and it´s kinda high-risk in these days when there are plenty of artist out of job and luck in on the client/employers side now. But you´re damn right that I´ve learned a valuable lesson.
I would like to thank everyone for their comments again, I think that there´s been some really valuable opinions and I hope it also helped someone else to find some answers he/she has been looking for. From this point on, if anyone has any opinion, I´d like him/her to stick with the initial theme, rather than this concrete situation that happened to me before the thread gets waaay too messy with just this one case. thank you guys again.
As to a price, there's no set amount for high poly sources as there are too many factors involved, what's it for? How much is the job? How long did it take? How easy is it to replicate? What's the client gonna do with it etc. The main thing is what's an acceptable sum to you to give him all reproduction rights and is it even worth it in the first place, if it's a simple character than you will find it hard to justify an extra charge. Ultimately though I would say between 10-30% of total fee on a well thought out model, obviously more if its a very complex model. End of the day they already paid for your time to make it but you are selling he rights to reproduction. saying that though it must be justified, if it's so they can kit bash then yes you should push for more money but if it's just to check the model is yours or do small revisions then you might come across as a gold digger.
This is just a very strange situation as it's come up while you are still working with him which puts you in an awquard position. This should have all been laid out before work started which isn't your fault because all clients work differently and in these tough times I don't blame you for just getting on with it. Basically you have been hijacked mid project but the lack of a solid contract has bit you on the bum unfortunately
From what I understand :
you get in touch with these guys and they tell you they'll pay you for normal mapped assets, give you THEIR price for YOUR work, and you agree on it, don't sign any contractor agreement ??? Then you do the stuff, get paid the price they asked then when they ask for source files you say it will cost more.
I see several flaw here,
first : they gave you THEIR quote for YOUR work, that's no good, I mean maybe they are indies but never accept prices from the get go, always estimate the amount of time needed.
second (I may not have understood that well): no contract WTF!!!! Never ever do that. and if you did have a contract, the source files were obviously not mentioned as deliverables, which is the base of your problem. ALWAYS define everything in your contract, it may sound tedious and blocking for either you or th client but it will make things way more straightforward in the long run, and make the client>contractor relationship much more profitable for both parties.
third : well obviously they ask for the source files, what did you expect ? that "you´re not a person who´d need to edit other people models" is bullshit. the second you delivered the asset and get paid for it, it's your client property. they can do whatever they want with them, even modifications (unless you specify it in the contract, see my drift from point 2?). I'm not questionning your skills since obviously you know what you do, but even the best artists out there have had their models modified and this for whatever reason that could exist. they could want to rebake the normals because you didn't use the same baker they do with their engine, it could be that the animator doesn't like the way you modelled the low so they need to modify it and rebake, it could be variation they want to handle inhouse...for any of these, they need source files, the asset being theirs (since you got paid and agreed with that).
Fourth : dude, you got paid for deliverables, not for the global work ? I mean they knew you had to do a highpoly for this, I think your mistake is that you didn't see the global picture of the pipeline. as I said earlier, you must get paid for anythign you DO, then charge for it, see if they told you yeah we need a high but don't go crazy on it it'll be a small character, you'd have spent way less time on the high, which means, you would get paid more on a hourly rate (since that's what counts). it's all about managing your time. if you had several characters to do then be smart on the way you build the first one to be able to reuse it, thus reduce the time spent on it, etc.
to me your issue comes for these 4 points but the most important being 1 and 2 : bad definition of the agreement, along with probably a bad estimation of the time needed and spent. As a freelancer, time is everything. if you don't have any control on time schedule wise, get control of it with the time you spend on the asset.
of course, as I said I'm not questioning your skills or anything, just stating what I think is fishy. Which is a huge issue in this industry in general. In no other industry you'd reasonably start a service without at least a quote, written and signed by both parties agreeing on the price, deliverables and time. this is the minimum.
The whole point of a contract is to define the terms of a project, and to make sure everyone understands what's being asked. If you don't have that in place, you might as well undertake the work half expecting for the clients email address to stop working at the end of the project.
If any of your clients refuse, or turns down that contract, then they're sketchy as fuck and you don't want to be working with them anyways. Of course there's the issue of "there's a lot of out of work people", but you get around that with being professional, and working to a high standard. About being easier to work with and more exacting than the next guy. Your work seems solid, so you've got that covered.
You starting this thread speaks about the contractual ambiguity of your freelancing experience and current situation, so far, though. You're asking a discussion board stuff that could and absolutely should have been stated and clarified by a contract at the very start of the project. There shouldn't be any amount of guesswork, even before you've made the first polygon or drawn the first pixel.
I'm speaking with almost 4 years of freelancing-only experience, here. I make a living off've freelancing. I feel like I've learned the lessons (which mostly come down to common sense, honestly). I consider it dangerous that people would work without a contract, both with the whole having to trust a business-minded stranger, and with the legality of it.
When you start taking on projects that take a quarter - to half - a year to complete, and you're making a relatively big amount of money, that you need to live off, pay rent with, put food on the table with, you might not scoff at the security and clarification a contract will bring you.
I'm sorry to say it, but it'll probably be only a matter of time until you realise that getting a contract written and signed is VERY important and, oftentimes, absolutely needed.
Best of luck.