Weird crease

Mr. Bean

Okay, so I'm making a low poly character. Now, before you say how bad the head looks, it's actually meant to be a very low poly real time character, with little or no facial animation (so topology is for the most part irrelevant), and the eyes are painted in. So it's more of a "background character" for a video game. Comments or critique are welcome.

However, I've got these two weird creases next to his nose:



I circled one. Since it's so low poly etc. it will most likely be viewed from a distance, but even from that distance the creases show.

I don't see anything in the topology that would cause that crease.

Any ideas?

~ Mr. B

Ben Apuna

Could be a smoothing group issue (Max) or soft/hard edge thing (Maya).

Could also be some bad baked ambient occlusion overlayed on your diffuse texture.

It might even just be the nature of polygonal shading. It's kind of hard to tell, a wireframe image might help.

What app are you using?

MoP

Yeah, post an image of the model without the texture. Given the nature of your question I assume it's not painted into the texture, but it's pretty hard to tell from that image.

As Ben Apuna says, it's most likely a dodgy smoothing group or hard edge. Equally likely is you have some duplicated vertices there (two vertices overlapping) so the smoothing is going crazy. In that case it'd be an easy fix just to merge/weld/collapse or otherwise remove the offending vertices.

EarthQuake

Just looks like an edge running the wrong way and creating a couple concave faces, i dont really see any "errors" here. Just a matter of tweaking your geometry, turning edges or adding a couple extra verts to give it some better smoothing. Its hard to say without seeing wires.

hijak

yeah that is a duplicate vert, duplicate edge, or one of those weird faces that are sharing 2 edges or something, if you where to smooth it you would prob start seing what the error actually is. Suggestion, merge verts in that area, or try to select and delete that edge, and if its a face try to delete it. If it wont let you what usually works for me (in maya) is select all faces an hit conform normals, i should select the offending faces, then reverse normal on these faces and the whole thing should look okay again. This happens quite often when your combining meshes but not noticing that one has normals facing the opposite way. but 90% likely its one of those 3 things, they can be a bitch to get rid of sometimes but its doable.

Mr. Bean

Really sorry everyone about not saying which app I use; I use 3ds Max. I did try welding verts but they were all welded properly. It turns out that it was a smoothing issue. It was being over smoothed in that one spot, even though that smoothing amount worked for the rest of the head. The only way I was able to fix it was by separating the head into two smoothing groups: one for the main head, and another for the problem area. That fixed it:







His left eye needs new edges cut, but that will be fixed.

I'd appreciate any comments, as I was wondering if this is a good character head model (for a low poly character that would undergo little if any facial animation, and would probably be viewed from a distance).

Thanks everyone for the help!

Eric Chadwick

The proportions are unnatural. Mesh detail is not evenly spread. Topology isn't great. It's a good start though, keep going!

Some topology reference
http://wiki.polycount.net/Face_Topology

MoP

You could optimise that head model a lot more if it's not going to animate and only be seen from a distance.

For example, why do you have such tight and detailed loops around the eyes?
Same with the lips... and as EricChadwick pointed out the edges aren't being used in very natural directions to complement the structure of the face. Especially around the cheeks and mouth.

Mr. Bean

Thanks guys.

I was aiming for something similar to these real-time character models; they are the style and type of model/topology that I was hoping mine was like:

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/real-people-male-3ds/512685

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3d-model-middle-east-characters/515924

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/world-war-german-soldier-3ds/285955

You don't think so?

EarthQuake

No. On top of that, striving for turbosquid quality is not something that will earn you a lot of praise around here, if you're here to learn and take critique seriously and improve your art you will do very well, if you're simply here to try and do some "good enough" models to throw on turbosquid and make a few bucks, you won't get much out of the community of polycount.

Mr. Bean

EarthQuake wrote: »

if you're here to learn and take critique seriously and improve your art you will do very well,

Yes.

EarthQuake wrote: »

if you're simply here to try and do some "good enough" models to throw on turbosquid and make a few bucks, you won't get much out of the community of polycount.

No.

Please don't judge me; that's a quick assumption that isn't true. I'm not tryiing to make something "good enough" to "throw on turbosquid and make a few bucks." I'm just trying learn, and the best place to show you what I meant by real time model was Turbosquid. I was striving for a low poly game model for a real time engine, and I wanted to make sure you knew what I meant by that term; I also thought that mine was similar to the models linked and was interested to know if you knew what it was that was different.

I'm not trying to make anybody angry, especially you, so please don't take what I'm saying the wrong way.

I'm trying to make a model a certain way, and I'm comparing it to professional models to try to learn, and I'm not trying to create a lame imitation of one.

I hope you will understand what I meant; I'm really sorry if I misphrased something in my previous post that misled anyone.

I'm sorry I gave you that impression.

All I ask is that you don't think I'm trying to be rude, or misinterpret what I'm trying to say. I edited the post so it sounds a little more logical.

Eric Chadwick

don't EVER piss off the EarthQuake

Might help to take a long look at the first link on the wiki page that I suggested...
Topology - Head thread on the SubDivisionModeling.com forums

EarthQuake

Its cool, maybe i was too harsh.

The way i read your response was something like "its as good as these, why do i need to listen to you guys". I'm sure i could have been over-reacting. Just keep listing to the guys giving you feedback and you'll be fine.

pior

Its not a "smoothing issue". Problem comes from that one long quad you have from the corner of the mouth to the nostril. Since its a quad it seems okay but when you'll look at it closely you'll see its very much twisted on itself, as in, not a planar quad at all. Once you fix that you'll be good to go. Making sure that whatever is in quad is effectively planar and not twisted, is a great habit to develop but unfortunately its overlooked very often.

rooster

pior: doesn't that kind of go out the window as soon as the mesh is animated?
i guess large chunks of a mesh are likely to stay the same though even when skinned, so I can see the benefit

Mr. Bean

EricChadwick wrote: »

don't EVER piss off the EarthQuake

Never on purpose; the last thing I want to do is offend someone. Thanks for the link; I will be using that and the first link you gave a lot for sure.

EarthQuake wrote: »

Its cool, maybe i was too harsh.

No, it's not your fault. Looking back I can totally see how you interpreted my post; I should have more clearly said what I meant. I do value everyone's feedback very much; what I meant by the links was "this is the level of detail/quality I was aiming for, I had originally thought that my head model was similar to these, but it sounds like it isn't. What can I do to make it like those heads?"

Is this head fixable, or should I scrap it and make a new one? I'm afraid I don't understand about the topology. For a low poly character that won't be animated facially, is topology still important?

@pior, thanks for the tip. I see what you mean about it not being planar. I'll fix that, for the sake of habit as well as topology.

Eric Chadwick

Yeah, topology still matters. It still has to light well.

If there are a lot of them on screen, then wasted detail (like the triangles inside your eyehole, or the extra edgeloops below the nose and around the mouth) may reduce rendering performance because those are extra vertices that have to be transformed & lit.

You proportions look odd to me. Are you working from reference? The 2nd page of this tut is applicable here.
The Making of Moff - High Polygon Realistic Character Creation

Mr. Bean

Yes, these are the references I was using.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a148/sunny304/blue%20prints/sahyamlalfront.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a148/sunny304/blue%20prints/sahyamlalside.jpg

I deleted the triangle edges on the eye, and that extra edge around the mouth:

Eric Chadwick

Put the reference behind your mesh, on planes in your viewport. Both front and side. Like the bottom of the 2nd page I linked. Does your mesh match up? Doesn't look like it.

pior

I dont want to sound arsh - you say you are using those references, but are you? It feels like you are loosely looking at them. The guy in the pictures has a very strong facial bone structure, indeed a very good material to work from for a 3d model. Yet none of his characteristics are present on your geo. I know you mentioned that the model will be seen from a distance, but that does not mean it shouldnt be good.

If anything, distance viewing requires more emphasis on what matters the most. A good counter example is how shitty meshes with some pores sculpted in and a photo slapped on can still look good in a Zbrush close-up render. Good striking models working at a distance ask for a very structured state of mind, a focus on what matters. (a skill very much overlooked in the current days of highres sculpting) A fantastic help is that, at very low polygon counts quite often you get : one facial plane = one or a few quads. It makes lowpoly stuff a real pleasure to work with.

Make a habit of unsmoothing your model to see the planes properly. Look at this, its an extreme exxample but you get the point :

http://www.benregimbal.com/pck_img.jpg

Note that even if the untextured version relies on smoothing groups to separate the brow plane, that does not mean it should be hard edged like that on the final asset. In this case, smoothing groups are a tool for facial structure visualization.

To sum it up : think of polygons and quads for what they are to a sculptor (planes oriented in space) rather than a mere consequence of a cg program joining points one after another.

Good luck!

Mr. Bean

Thanks!

Here's how it lines up with the reference (although I probably will start over):



Also, what do you think of this other head:



That one is meant to be more of a main character; more detailed.

pior

my honest suggestion would be to give this a good watch :
http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/store/product/419/Sculpting-Comic-Book-Style-with-John-Brown

http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/store/product/756/Sculpting-Expression-and-Fantasy-Characters-with-John-Brown

Unlike many CG dvds, this focus a lot on the artistic side of things, how the structure of the face works, the draft in facial planes ... That's the kind of subjects you really need to master.