3ds max baking rant thread
polycounter lvl 14
I am aware about the smoothing issue which as mentioned can be solved with subdivision very easily but what i would like to mention is that in fact almost everyone in our studio complains about normal maps baked from maya, even juniors and freshers and the way normals are displayed in maya's viewports and even maya artists bake their normal maps in 3dsmax and preview them there AND they have to bake their normal maps the way 3dsmax expects them to be in order to get them to show properly in maya. We are using 3 of the top game engines and all of them show better normal maps when they are created in 3dsmax.
This is a huge thread as i see and i don't think someone has come to a proper conclusion. Or proven something substantial here apart from a few normal artifacts of usually minuscule importance which can be easily fixed or need not be at all. I see the point, but in fact it is a very tiny one.
We have come to a conclusion though and i don't know how much this means to you but is quite the opposite of what your title mentions (which is why i was drawn to this discussion to find out what people think and improve our workflow if needed). That is why we are baking normal maps either in 3dsmax and in some cases external apps or even in the engine. But never Maya.
I also read somewhere that maya displays hardware shaders better in the viewport and that 3dsmax is not really WYSIWYG. This must be a joke, i hope. There was an issue with seams in the past agreed; but this was back to 3dsmax 9 (which still rendered better normal maps and AO than maya), and now 2010 is out and 2011 which is truly revolutionalizing workflows is coming and people still whistle their tunes.
Max shows you in the viewport around and over 90% of what your render will be and in some cases of simple shaders even 100%.
If you use mudbox, try baking your normal maps with 3dsmax compatible settings and you will see the difference. They look correct and better than with maya settings both in maya and max viewports as well ofc as the actual game itself.
Someone is performing that trick with the camel and the mosquito here i think
This is a huge thread as i see and i don't think someone has come to a proper conclusion. Or proven something substantial here apart from a few normal artifacts of usually minuscule importance which can be easily fixed or need not be at all. I see the point, but in fact it is a very tiny one.
We have come to a conclusion though and i don't know how much this means to you but is quite the opposite of what your title mentions (which is why i was drawn to this discussion to find out what people think and improve our workflow if needed). That is why we are baking normal maps either in 3dsmax and in some cases external apps or even in the engine. But never Maya.
I also read somewhere that maya displays hardware shaders better in the viewport and that 3dsmax is not really WYSIWYG. This must be a joke, i hope. There was an issue with seams in the past agreed; but this was back to 3dsmax 9 (which still rendered better normal maps and AO than maya), and now 2010 is out and 2011 which is truly revolutionalizing workflows is coming and people still whistle their tunes.
Max shows you in the viewport around and over 90% of what your render will be and in some cases of simple shaders even 100%.
If you use mudbox, try baking your normal maps with 3dsmax compatible settings and you will see the difference. They look correct and better than with maya settings both in maya and max viewports as well ofc as the actual game itself.
Someone is performing that trick with the camel and the mosquito here i think
Replies
Getting better results baked in max and displayed in maya? Maybe if you've got a custom maya shader synced up to max's tangents, or if you're simply forgetting to invert the green channel or something of that nature. Max can't even sync up tangents within itself, where maya can, which has been clearly shown in many examples in this thread.
Now, if the engines that you are using are expecting normals from max, and synced up properly to max, then you should be getting pretty good results, better results than if you baked in maya, simply because you shaders are tailored to max. This is the ideal workflow, and how most game engines should work(engine synced up to APP X or documented Method X). The problem is that this is rarely if ever the case, even when it is claimed to be, there are still issues.
"Better normals" is pretty vague, and could be due to a wide number of things, like not knowing how to set up the bake settings correctly. So until you can show some samples to back up your post, you're not really saying much.
If you want to settle for "good enough" that is fine with me, i've used engines that are terribly inaccurate, and i've used engines that are wonderfully synced up and give me results that look near exactly like the highpoly mesh. Neither ways are more work for the artist, so its only common sense to desire and expect things will be done correctly. There is little that bothers me more than spending days on a high-quality hard surface high, only to have to jump through hoops to get it to display correctly, or settle will a poor end results. I mean if my end result is going to look fucked, why spend so much time on the source content?
I think I've summed it up before, but just to be really really clear:
3ds Max:
Maya:
These are all facts, they are not opinions. They have been proven by various methods in this thread, by many different people on many different setups.
yiannisk: I would love to know what the people at your company are doing if they can't get a map to bake correctly in Maya.
It is a very simple operation, the only way it can go wrong is if you are trying to bake geometry that can never be displayed correctly through tangent space maps (eg. a cube with all soft edges).
Right now in most of your posts you are coming across as a 3ds Max-loving troll, who doesn't know much about other applications, yet claims to.
However that ups the tricount and thus the vert count, downing performance.
CONCLUSION: You should use the baking app that is synced with your engine, and that the Max team should sync their tangent basis calculators.
It's taken me a while to really get my head around the workings of this tech properly, and I never heard anything about camels or mosquitos before. Maybe that is the missing link!
For someone using max maya and 3 of the top game engines surely you can whisk up some screenshots or explanations of what it is that you do differently to everyone else? I'm not convinced you have it right, maybe there is some misunderstanding of what the exact problem is - have a real read back through the thread if you are really interested and you will understand.
cheers!
So i can see why people say they do not have issues with max, because the workflows and ways to work around the problems max/most apps have are so en-grained into what they do its no longer considered a problem, but simply taken at face value as to "what normal maps can do". The sad thing here is that this doesn't have to be the way things are done, these issues can all be fixed(as shown) and will make everyone's life easier when we have proper tools for dealing with a variety of different engines/bakers.
At the end of the day, i think most people are pretty miss-informed on exactly what normal maps can do. Sure, even with the best solutions you may not be able to have all averaged normals on a 12 tri cube. However i feel like most workflows being used to day are closer to about 80% accurate, and doing it properly you can deal with like 95% of issues without any special work arounds. Which in every day production, will save time, headaches and of course money on your project, not to mention increase the overall quality of your assets. The first thing to think about is how you can fix the major errors, but when those are fixed, you start to notice how much better the little things you may not even have considered as wrong look.
yiannisk: What sort of work are you involved in? Do you do mostly character/organic work? Character work by nature tends to be "softer" and have less extreme angles, thus less areas that will be problematic when baking. I'm curious to know what sort of work it is that you're referring to, or if you're commenting on a wider range, ie: weapons, props, vehicles, stuff that is very noticable when you've got smoothing errors.
Heres a fun excersize: Find obvious smoothing errors in epic's own promotional material for gears of war.
Notice the broken smoothing on the gun, pretty obvious. Does this ruin the game/image? No, is it something that could be avoided with synced up engine/baker? Yes.
it appears to be either lighting or shader issue, not a model issue.
I think i have the asset here as part of UE3 sample resource.
I will check it out and tell you if i do.
But i don't think epic would let it be like that
On the other hand wasting production time for things that nobody is going to notice unless after scrutiny of a still image for a while is generally avoided. Games are not still!
Yeah but you miss the point here, if these issues are fixed in code(relatively small amount of work) then ALL assets require less work. So you're ALREADY spending time on stuff that is debatable as to weather or not its noticable. Its a completely valid viewpoint to think this whole issue isn't worth dealing with, its one of my pet peeves so i see it as a very important matter, that my work which i spend so much time and energy is display correctly at the end of the day, but its perfectly reasonable to say maybe we're thinking about it a bit too much and maybe it isnt as noticeable as we care to think. However, simply saying it isn't an issue is just incorrect, as it has been proven time and time again. The issues in this thread are facts, not opinions.
I do a lot of weapons work, which means close-up in your face assets that are visible 99% of the game, and take up to 25% of your screen real-estate. In these situations, its simply not an option to ignore errors and hope the user doesn't care/wont notice. If you want a good looking game(shooter), you need to have great content for your FPV weapons.
[edit] This is what i mean in that shot btw, the thing on the front is obviously broken in some other way. You see how the specular is warped and reflecting on strange angles? Smoothing errors.
EQ have mercy
We are developing games for all platforms and various genres.
sports, RPG, casual, RTS, sci-fi, beat-em up...games..
games that have all sorts of assets in them. small large organic inorganic..
everything that exists in a game world they have.we make no exceptions
All engines we use proprietary or not, are compatible with "the broken" tool
I could write a book on how to get amazing, accurate bakes in Max, Maya, XN, you name it. But to sit and not question the various hacks and tricks that you need to do to actually get to that end result is foolish.
EQ. I think you are missing the point
personal satisfaction of the artist is one thing, production time is another.
as an artist i am totally with you. I will spend a lot of time to make sure my curves follow the proper flow and go crazy to achieve a nice pattern or fix a small thing on my textures or model. I have scrapped so many things of my personal art for reasons like that, that my friends and colleagues would question my sanity
but i have also one leg on the other side. so i see more than one point
There is often a lot of time wasted on really small issues. so much time in a production cycle, that would allow you to make a few more extra assets or take more care of the last ones that sometimes go out in a hurry. If this issue was a problem that derives from broken tools, shouldn't everything show similar issues? If they were all showing similar issues don't you think that the programemrs would have applied a fix for everything?
Mind you this is unreal that has a streaming channel specifically for weapons and a different one for characters.. and all that for every texture separate. that means that unreal actually after a certain distance stops showing certain textures (like normal maps or specular) and this applies individually on characters, weapons, world.. etc. Look at your streaming\LOD channels on udk or any Unreal mod editor and you will see that.
this could have easily been just a streaming glitch or something similar.
edit:
"nobody has ever said(outside of the thread title) that its impossible to create content in max."
also please.. stop undermining a tool that is responsible for a HUGE amount (in fact by far the largest sorry but it is true) of amazing games for well over a decade at least. It shows bias and your persistence on trying to find any possible thread to grab is obvious. You can find a huge amount of screenshots without that issue and you know it.
why use a tool/pipeline that introduces errors into your normalmap, use a different tool which doesnt, this does not mean adding production time to an asset it means changing your workflow slightly.
It makes quite a difference when there are no errors, a feeling of solidity etc and you get it for nothing, also as EQ has said this reduces production as it reduces the need for cleaning it up, you should be able to acheive a perfect bake absolutely no need for touching up.
Im totally biased against max, why, years of experience with the package, and knowing that it produces different normals compared to every other tool, that have included errors where as others dont.
its not going to undermine max, but hopefully should result in them improving their baker allowing it to be usefull for all tagents types, why the hell have they not done this?
i know the recession is an issue but chill.
as i said. glitches happen, this is one. it doesn't happen for everything you make. sure it is fine if they fix it we will all rejoice and sing a song.
READ THIS
Weird Maya normal map seam/artifact problem - Am I making a simple mistake?
Answers
"Low-poly cubes are surprisingly hard to normal map for (as far as beveled edges go). You'd probably be much better off just beveling the low-poly cube and using the normal map to create the recessed holes. "
"Having each face of the dice as a separate UV island will reduce this issue. If you look at your uv's the areas that are effected are where the uv's are merged."
http://www.game-artist.net/forums/support-tech-discussion/11924-weird-maya-normal-map-seam-artifact-problem-am-i-making-simple-mistake.html
and to XSI ...
http://www.game-artist.net/forums/support-tech-discussion/10503-xsi-normal-mapped-cube-looks-bad.html
it seems pretty common to me..
It's a really interesting point you make that the perception could be that max gives better results ( especially for less technically minded/anal folks) Because of the bits and bobs that are required for it to look decent within max.
I'm sure most of us will agree that it is not a question of whether great art can be made using max to bake or not, because the workarounds and bodges have become part of the normal mapping workflow that many/most/all people use at least in part. The end result is the prime important goal and everybody has been doing what they can to get the results they want.
For me right now it is probably where you have been for the past few years EQ (I'm guessing, please forgive me if i'm wrong) - I just know what is broken and it bothers me that it is that way! It seems unnecessary and just annoys me.
As for those gameartisans threads yiannisk, the problem sounds like there are different vertex normals/hard edges and no splits in uv shells = errors. This is not the same thing as the smoothing errors max creates which are caused by non-matching tangent basis/interpolators in renderer/viewport.
Thanks to everyone who is contributing, this is a really good direction and I am keen to see what comes next.
You are right and wrong.
when someone starts to make a graphics engine, he takes certain things into consideration one of the things is, which software would they prefer to attract.
So they design an engine which caters towards certain demographic and workflow.
Most engines will prefer either max or maya. Others (like source at a certain point) would benefit those who use XSI. Same goes for the proprietary engine the guys that made for God of War for PSP which clearly benefits a maya workflow.
and so on and so forth.
Wouldn't it be better if engines were following universal standards?
Yes it would.
But for certain things there are no universal standards. So they have to make a choice. Often based on software popularity or whatever reason may be.
Also independent engine that are created they are geared towards the software they were using to generate their test assets. usually it is one.
i.e. Torque used to benefit max some years ago.
i hear lately they do great with blender.
http://workstations.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=23699
Hello, once again you have failed to read something I just posted.
I have already made the point that no application in the world can correctly normal-map a smoothed 6-faced cube (12 triangles) using tangent-space interpolation.
It simply will not work.
This is not a bug in any application, it is simply something that is not mathematically possible with the way that tangent space interpolation works. You will find the same results in any application when trying to bake a single cube with smoothed edges and minimal UV seams.
This is a completely separate issue to the fact that 3ds Max's viewport display does not use the correct tangent space calculations for the maps that 3ds Max scanline renderer has baked. That is a bug, plain and simple.
It seems you are really quite set on demonstrating your ignorance of these issues.
In fact, the second link you posted has the correct solution at the end of the thread - http://www.game-artist.net/forums/99373-post9.html
That "normal map issue" was simply user error when baking, they were not casting rays far enough, so they had ray misses from the corners, resulting in a bad output. This could happen in any application, and in fact it was pretty obvious that it was the problem just by looking at the first image.
I'm not sure why you're so intent on trying to make other applications look bad by digging up unrelated threads which have nothing to do with the issue we're describing here?
Honestly, could you just write a summary of the issue that this thread is describing so we can be sure you actually understand it? Right now it seems like you have no idea what this thread is about.
http://rsaling.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/delta_01-1.jpg
http://scrawlfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/gears-2-achievements-partial.jpg
http://devron.files.wordpress.com/2006/11/gears-of-war-20060714024932572.jpg
http://www.gamesbasement.co.uk/userfiles/image/GOW2%202.jpg
http://robertoagudelo.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/wallpaper_gears_of_war_11_1600.jpg
http://tech2.in.com/media/images/img_5339_gow_wallpaper4.jpg
http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1167/full-res/1127159903.jpg
i doubt it, they would look at what the industry standard is, which i dont think is maxes weird tangent system (its not even maxes realtime solution FGS), they would read papers on how other games engines, open source etc, they would use their experience to create a system that works best, which i dont think would be max's as i beleive there is extra calculations that correct thier tangents.
and no i dont think most engines prefer max or maya, some are setup to interact with one and not the other but swapping app happens in companies quite alot. our engine still has y as up because that is the industry standard not because max uses z as up.
Y, chill out dude, take the time to read the thread.
also you are right. autodesk didn't invent normal maps in their first place.
3d software developers and major game engine developers work closely together if you guys are not aware of it, well... become... some are even strategic partners.
http://www.devmaster.net/news/index.php?storyid=2452
http://www.develop-online.net/news/30977/Autodesk-joins-Epics-IPP
What started out as a good discussion and very useful information pertaining to normal-mapping in a number of programs has now devolved into you ranting about how good 3ds Max is while ignoring everyone else and missing the point entirely.
Please stop posting in this thread until you have something useful and helpful to say. Currently you are just being an idiot.
The press releases you linked are useless. Fozi already pointed out in this thread (with supporting screenshot info) that the FBX tangent space is different to the 3ds Max viewport tangent space, so unless they've fixed that too, we're looking at even more chance of broken normal-maps now that a different exporter is added to the pipeline.
There is no reaching him, there is no making him see common sense or any way to reach common ground, just don't waste your time.
i simply said 3dsmax is not the only software with glitches. i said these problems are not major. and they are not.
which it seems for you and some other fanbois it is very difficult to accept.
You found the only problematic image on the internet and slapped it in people's face to prove exactly what? That the software you promote in a grey manner is the solution to their "problems" ?? and the tool that is by far the #1 preference in game development is not good enough?
I dare you to put one of the images i attached under yours and say "normal map done right by 3dsmax" if you have nothing to lose!!! i dare you!
as fo you sad dog Vig.. stop following your master and wiggling your tail.. and man up!
i will return your characterization as only this suits to people like you with such emblazoned fanaticism to their cerebral cortex, bad manners, disgusting hosts, and a disgrace of an admin throughout all the years i have been frequenting superb professional forums.
It is terribly sad that a renowned community like this with select members has a person like you as an administrator.
You give polycount a bad name.
Also there are other ways to support certain products that you slyly support. You can have banners. They pay decent clean and HONEST money.
Shot through the heart, and your to blame...
Sorry, couldn't help it :poly136:
Nobody is arguing that max can't create something which looks fine.
The problem is, because of the quirks (read: not bugs, not glitches, but actual consistent hardcoded quirks in the way max does things) present in max's operations, it takes a little bit more time or effort to iron out any issues which arise through these quirks.
Granted, a lot of the time they aren't noticable. And max is still an extremely capable (and in my opinion the best all-rounder) game art tool.
What this thread is trying to propose, is that these small errors are in fact avoidable with a little consideration from the tool programmers. If these issues in max could be resolved, it would take a whole step of cleanup or workaround out of the process of creating an asset within max. Yes, max can be used to make great art. But you have to acknowledge that if there's a relatively minor change made, which would increse productivity, then it should by all means be brought to attention... Do you disagree with that at all?
EQ sorry for spoiling your mood.
Harry,
I definitely understand what you say, and i agree.
This though is not what this thread has as it's title. It is a provocative title, and false. It insults the intelligence of all those who see amazing, not just fine, critically acclaimed games noted for their visual excellence made with that tool.
Now of course if i was a developer, with such a defaming biased thread floating in one of the most prestigious communities with acclaimed professionals in its gulfs i would come in and say we are looking into it and we are going to fix it. which they would anyway even without the provocation.
This is not the way to suggest a feature or submit a bug!!!! don't you agree?
There are specific channels and official forums to do that. Professionally!
Not like a goat herder.
And fine, let's say it is mentioned falsely that max normal maps shouldn't be used but the meaning was different. Regardless, the question that comes to a user's head after displays of cubes with issues (although a cube is a bad example) and images with engine artifacts as if the game came out like this or that "defect" was present in the entire game (which is far from the truth.. that game actually has been one of the most influential games visually with multiple awards etc. is "what should i use then?"
See who started the topic, and what happened when people said "well fine.. np i just paint them", "most people won't bother" that "I've thrown the straight Max normals into Source and Cryengine 2 and haven't once had any problems like this. Then again, I'm also mainly doing lots of hard surface and mechanical stuff." which supposedly give the most problems is it characters, mechanical surfaces or cubes that give the most problems??! Who dictated the questions they should keep in mind? It's all in the first page..
Who got pissed that one who develops all kinds of games for all consoles and has no major issue about it and is bad news by the time we had established.. max can't do normal maps. He deserves to be ridiculed, ignored etc. A fanboi. or a Witch! take your pick. Screw claims usability data and production reports..
That is as far as the topic itself is concerned.
Now the rest, is not much of a different story. I have been provoked for a couple of days now, because i actually had different point of view and opinion by this "administrator" and his puppy. I say that because when the "admin" posts he follows right behind him and starts barking, or the opposite.
I have been heavily insulted by both since my first post. They put words in my mouth saying that i claim max is perfect and all that unsubstantial rabble trying to create the image of a fanboy who is talking BS instead of a professional who says that yes the problem might be there, but it is not really a big one, and it doesn't certify saying "do not use max for your normal maps in games" now there is a lot more to say about their behaviour.. a behaviour that this "admin" is supposed to prevent.. not extend insults himself and behaving like a barbarian who is roaming in his feud and whoever is saying something that he doesn't agree, he calls, ignorant, stupid, etc. etc. etc. I think they got out of order a bit.
Participating in this community is not a right, yes; but insulting and harassing a user is nobody's right and definitely not a privilege ESPECIALLY NOT the "administrator's". I have grown to respect and think highly of administrators. I have met some of the best; and unfortunately here i met the worst. But i am tired of putting dirt in my mouth.
This is not the reason i joined here, nor what i expected by joining and ofc it is obvious that there are serious and respectful moderators here as well as serious, professional and respectful users. The reason i joined is because i believe that this was a good and open community where people feel free to have an opposite opinion or different point of view, exchange tips, help each other, and show their artwork offering and receiving constructive criticism. I still believe it is.
Here are my findings based on Max vs. Maya baking using the native tools and displaying the results in the viewport using the native tools.
Summary:
Unless your game engine is set up to use the same tangent basis as 3ds Max's renderer (not it's viewport), your normal-mapped models will never look 100% correct!"
And the summary is in bold.....
yannisk: Why fly off the handle in defense of 3dsmax's rep, do you own stock or something?
If anything this topic has helped AD identify a problem that will, if anything else, help improve he quality of 3dsmax.
thanks mop: (this thread once was part of this one http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=68173 )
http://boards.polycount.net/showpost.php?p=1093919&postcount=84
/trollfeed
heh heh, I like that analogy. I don't like the thread though. I don't mind montel. What's the overall meaning? I'm not 100% sure.
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=70877
If we were all Jelly Beans, he would be black licorice... You think its grape so you go to eat it and then you spend the next 3hrs scrubbing the inside of your mouth with gasoline.
It seems like everywhere he goes chaos is sure to follow, actually I think maybe that's just me...
UDK:
3DS Max:
It's hard to judge from those images, can you take a screenshot from the UDK model viewer with a single light source, no diffuse textures, and a flat specular? That'll make the normal-map clearer and easier to judge by itself.
fixd.
^ this
And I'd love to see the flats too. I haven't seen any seamless normal maps in Unreal yet, would love to hear about any workarounds.