A good starting point for low poly modelling?

rumblesushi

Hello,

I'm about to start making 3D models, and I thought this would be a good place to join.

I've developed my own 3D engine in AS3, for the sole purpose of making games. It has similar capabilities in raw poly pushing power to a DS or N64, so when I say low poly, I mean it

Scenes with around 2000 polygons total, so ideally, I'd like to make vehicles/characters etc with a polycount of around 100, with about 50/60 rendered at any one time. Which is incredibly low - but I think even Mario in Mario 64 is made of around 100 polys, and I would be surprised if the Goldeneye characters had any more than that.

I have a background in graphic art/illustration, but no experience at all of 3D modelling, I'm starting from scratch.

I've had a little play around with lightwave, and it does seem like it's going to take a lot of work to become proficient in 3D modelling.

So do you have any advice specific to low poly modelling? For starters, which program is the most suitable? I was thinking of lightwave, 3DS max or blender. I've heard lightwave and blender are easier to learn than Max, is there any truth to that?

And could you recommend any tutorials that cater to people making low poly models? Any any other advice you could give a total novice in modelling, in order to create some good looking low poly models.

I'm obviously going to be building people/cars/environments etc - I'd probably rather start with cars or people though, as I imagine they would be more challenging than basic geometry for low poly environments.

Here is the latest demo from my engine, to give you an idea of it's capabilities. Here are 150 buildings, 500 moving flowers, running at 60fps. Obviously the one advantage I do have over an N64 or DS is RAM, so higher res textures.

http://rumblesushi.com/city_F10.html

Cheers,
RumbleSushi

Richard Kain

Blender is easier to learn if you haven't already learned a different 3D package. Blender's interface is quite different from most of the other 3D packages, so its easier to pick up if you don't have any other 3D standards drilled into you. For the kind of low-poly work you are talking about, Blender should be just fine. You could also try using Wings3D, but of course it has no animation tools.

Low-poly modeling isn't as popular as it once was. But there are still several people around these boards who still dapple in it. Check the low-poly thred in the pimping and previews forums, that's a good place to see examples.

The most important things to consider in low-poly modeling are profiles, and textures. The profiles are everything in low poly, they are what will define the model. And the textures will bring the model to life. Properly optimizing the UV map on a low-poly model is important for taking advantage of as much of the texture as possible. If you're dealing with poly limits as low as you're talking about, animation isn't really something to worry about. You're going to get deformations and pinching whether you like it or not.

rumblesushi

Thanks for the reply Richard. I actually come from a graphic art background, so textures should be the easiest part of the process. I also have a graphic artist on board to do most of the texture work and character design etc.

Someone else mentioned Wings 3D actually. Which sounds like it would be good for basic static models, but of course, I'm going to need to use one of the packages that that DOES support animation, as most of the games are probably going to have animated characters.

What are profiles in 3D models? And what about pinching?

I saw that low poly sub forum actually, I'll check out some of the threads in it.

I remember reading about a technique which involved making a high poly model to start off with, applying lighting effects etc to the high poly model, then transferring that texture onto the low poly model to make it look more detailed than it really is. Is that a technique that would be useful in models with such a low poly count?

Also, do you happen to know of any good blender tutorials? I know they wouldn't exactly be hard to find on google, I just wondered if you happened to know of any in particular that would be good to start with.

I usually prefer to just teach myself software, read some documentation, and not rely on tutorials at all, but 3D packages are quite a bit more complex than graphic art packages, and I think I'll probably need to start off with some tutorials.

Cheers,
RumbleSushi

Richard Kain

Profiles are exactly what they sound like. If you render your model out with an all-black material, with zero shading, it will create a perfect "profile" rendering. It is the edge around your model, and the visual impression it creates. It is the models shape, when all lighting and texturing are taken away. Capturing the profile that you are wanting to convey is the first step in highly optimized low-poly modeling. If any polygon on your model doesn't directly effect the profile, then you can safely remove it.

The technique you are talking about is most likely normal mapping or bump mapping. And no, I don't really think it would be useful for you, especially not with such low-poly models. That's mainly used for some of the more advanced lighting features in modern 3D engines. But you would want to avoid that for a Flash game engine. It's just too performance intensive for the flash plugin. (it can be done, but it will rape your framerate) If you already know how to paint textures, you don't need to be sculpting for normal maps on such low-poly models.

For learning Blender, the best place to start is right here...
Blender User Manual Wiki
You should be able to learn all the basics. Pay attention to the user interface and some of the most common shortcut keys. Blender is a fairly deep and feature rich piece of software, and that can make it a bit daunting. But once you've learned the basics of how its structured, it becomes much easier to find any feature you want in it.

rumblesushi

Thanks again. Oh, and I wasn't talking about real time lighting effects, I know that isn't an option. Even basic lighting effects, you're talking about halving your framerate at best. More advanced lighting effects you'd be talking about being left with say a quarter of your unlit polygon budget. Even Pixel Bender, applying lighting effects to the frame buffer instead of at render stage, is an insane CPU hog.

I was thinking more in terms of normal mapping the high poly model (it was normal mapping I remember) - then baking the texture and using that on the low poly model, certainly not importing normal mapping to the engine and using it for real time lighting.

The main reason I developed my own 3D engine rather than using Papervision or one of the other commercially available 3D Flash engines is speed. They are far too slow to make proper 3D games.

Obviously every polygon or frame per second counts in a software 3D engine like this, and that's why I'm only going to use baked textures.

On a Core 2 Duo, I can get DS level performance, 2000 polys per frame at 60 frames a second, and obviously I don't want to do anything to lower that polygon budget even more (that's a realistic in game benchmark by the way, with decent sized textured polys, ie not a silly benchmark with tiny little flat shaded polys).

Mark Dygert

Silo, Modo, Max, Maya all great apps to model in. I've put my keyboard through someones face every time I subject my self to blender... Maybe its different if you're a blank slate, I dunno... best of luck if you go that route.

Silo is very easy to learn and sports a lot of features, some people complain about bugs but they just released a new version that looks like it took care of a lot of issues.

Modo is great, a lot like silo in that it's built from the ground up and focuses on ease of use and modeling.

Max is great, has some amazing tools but suffers from age and a "robust" set of legacy features and advanced junk you'll probably never use. It comes with some great tutorials and the help files are amazingly helpful.

Maya same thing only the modeling tools are a little crappier... The documentation is good but its going to require a heavy level of customization to actually bring it up to par with other apps, which isn't covered in the docs.

amotaf

Vig wrote: »

Maya same thing only the modeling tools are a little crappier... The documentation is good but its going to require a heavy level of customization to actually bring it up to par with other apps, which isn't covered in the docs.

I don't get it everywhere I go people are always having a dig at Maya it's a good program and not as "crappy" as people make out..... there's a reason why it's won an Academy Award "for scientific and technical achievement", citing use on loads of features using 3-D computer-generated images.

Mark Dygert

I'm comparing it to other apps for modeling, which is what the OP would be using it for.

Lets not turn this into;
"you hurt my feelings and besmirched the honor of my beloved program - Chris Crocker" type of discussion.

Have you used the other apps and can give some valuable insight into aspects of modeling in Maya I'm missing, or are you having an emotional reaction to something you perceive as a dig?

If you havn't, go try out Modo or Silo and take a look at polyboost before you go thinking Maya is king of ALL things. It does some things really really well, personally I like it for rigging and animation which is where most of its acclaim comes from. But for modeling, right out of the box its a pig. After some scripts and customization it can hold its own ok, but still falls a little short.

I think Maya's price tag mixed with that he would only being using one of its weaker features makes it a poor candidate.

DarthNater

I started on Maya, switched to Blender, now I have been using Max for the past 2 years. Maya is pretty easy to learn, although I feel a lot more... I don't know.... powerful? with Max. It just feels right to me, can't explain it really. But as Vig said, you'll probably only use about 5% of the program. I felt Maya had a ton of stuff I didn't use either (it comes with every app).

As far as Blender goes, its a great app once you can get over the interface. It took me a good 3 to 4 months to feel comfortable with it. I haven't used it since version 2.4, so they may have made some great improvements.

Calabi

Wings3D will probably get you off to the fastest start, once you've learned the ui which only takes a few minutes, you can get to experimenting, and figuring the modelling concepts, which apply to all packages, so then when you want to graduate to other less advanced programs, you can.

rumblesushi

I actually downloaded lightwave and Max trials, and Blender. Although it was hard to work out how to even texture map a cube, I slightly preferred lightwave's layout. A bit neater and cleaner.

I've heard good things about Max, but I can understand what you're saying about it, it did seem a bit too advanced and bloated for what I need.

Interestingly Blender's interface did seem a bit less intuitive than the others, but other people have told me it's easy to learn too, which is why I still have it in mind, and it's free.

I just read through the action models thread in the low poly forum, some very impressive models there, I think my favourite was DemonPrincess's, pretty flawless low poly model. I also saw bodypaint 3D mentioned, that looks like it could be very useful.

I haven't heard of Silo or Modo, I'll look them up.

Calabi

I think when people say Blender is easy to learn they are lying. With other software you can almost get the jist of things without looking into a manual. Blender you need manualsb tutorials, you need a personal trainer and you still, will forget and wont have a clue where that thing is that does that thing.

Thankfully they are fixing the madness in the 2.5 update although when that will be finished I dont know.

DarthNater

Calabi wrote: »

I think when people say Blender is easy to learn they are lying. With other software you can almost get the jist of things without looking into a manual. Blender you need manualsb tutorials, you need a personal trainer and you still, will forget and wont have a clue where that thing is that does that thing.

Thankfully they are fixing the madness in the 2.5 update although when that will be finished I dont know.

They still haven't released 2.5! Man, I thought they would be on like 4.0 or at least 3.0 by now.... Guess development has really slowed on that...

Honestly, it isn't THAT bad. It sucks, but if you can learn Zbrush, you can learn blender :P

Richard Kain

Calabi wrote: »

I think when people say Blender is easy to learn they are lying.

Call me a liar, will you?

Most 3D programs have fixed bars of icons, and various windows and panels that contain various functions. In order to utilize all of the software effectively, you have to memorize what all of the little icons mean, which bars and tabs they are all on, how to access all of the various panels, etc...

In Blender, there is one basic window object. There is one menu bar on that window object. On that menu bar, there is a single button that will let you change what "type" of window that the window object is. This button is your magic window to the features of Blender. By clicking on that button and selecting a different window type, you can reach any feature that Blender provides. You need to UV map? Pick a window, any open window, click on its window type button, and select the Image window type. That window is now your UV editing layout.

When you first fire Blender up, the default layout looks like it is comprised of a top menu bar, a 3D window, and a tools bar. This is not the case. What you are actually looking at is three basic Blender windows, one that is set to the information window type, one set to the 3D display window type, and one that is set to the controls window type. You can change any one of those windows to be a different type.

Calabi

Well, when I said liar, I meant everyone except you Richard.:poly122:

divi

go with blender. its free and will do everything you need and more. since you're a blank slate it should be just as easy to learn as any other package. work through the documentation and you'll have it mostly figured out. i did that once, it worked but i stopped using it and i forgot most of it again .
just dont become one of those weird people that call themselves blenderhead and worship it like a god (not referring to anyone specifically with that, just some of the blender fanboys)

rumblesushi

Thanks for the input everyone.

I am surprised nobody even mentioned lightwave though, whether it was a good or bad opinion, is it fairly unpopular?

I've got to implement some proper per poly collision detection in my engine, then I'll be ready to start focusing 100% on learning 3D modelling.

Here is an example of models being imported, just a model I downloaded...

http://rumblesushi.com/cars.html

And some fast 3D flock code...

http://rumblesushi.com/sea.html

http://rumblesushi.com/flock_01.html

Right now I'm only importing OBJs, because they are the easiest to parse. Obviously I'm going to need to implement collada imports, specifically for animation etc.

I'll post some practice runs of models when I start learning

Cheers,
RumbleSushi

ajr2764

Just wanted to say I mainly know how to use Maya because thats what they use in school. I recently started using Modo its really fast and efficient as far as workflow, I just havent had time to really learn it. Its hard when you have learned how to use one program for soo long. I need to take on a whole project using Modo so I can really learn how to use it.

I_R_Hopo

Blender is what I got started on. I felt that the interface just made perfect sense. Now, I DO learn computer programs extremely fast, but I still felt Blender would be easy to most people. In my grade 10 or 11 computer class, I already knew how to use the program so the teacher basically let me just walk around and check everything out others were doing, and everyone seemed to be picking it up quite quickly. I even taught a quick class on how to use the fluid and physics simulator, and everyone understood and used it perfect fine (And I'm probably the last person you want teaching a class, I'd confuse more than help due to my bad stage-fright type fears.) As far as being a free program though, Blender is amazing and easy to use, and will definately get you started with 3D. I just remember getting a LOT of nasty shading errors in it that I'd never get with Max (Which is the main reason I finally pushed myself to learn Max.)

I haven't used Maya, as I feel like learning Max perfectly before moving onto anything else (Kinda like Command and Conquer or Starcraft for me, gotta finish one campaign before moving on to the others :P ), but I still feel that Blender was the most intuitive. Not that I'd ever go back to it though. I mean, it's GOOD, but not Max good.

rumblesushi

Hey guys, just a quick update.

In between implementing some proper 3D collision detection in my engine, I've had a play around with Lightwave and Blender.

Somehow I prefer lightwave by far. The interface is so clean and simple, and the straight forward tab/menu layout makes it very easy to find what you need.

I've had a good look through some tutorials for lightwave and blender, and found them disappointing. The beginner tutorials seem to focus on editing a mesh, or just learning the interface. I haven't found a beginner tutorial for creating a simple model from scratch and applying a UV map to it.

So I've just been playing around myself.

Quick question for those of you who have some experience in lightwave.

How do you go about creating a low poly model FROM a high poly? Do you literally just delete points? I tested out the automated reduce polygons buttons, ie halving the polycount, and it seems fairly useless. Didn't seem that intelligent in it's poly selection, just seemed to delete them at random which lead to a model with polygons missing etc.

Also, what is the texture map method called, particularly for characters I've noticed, where the texture just looks like a sort of flattened face? Is that called a diffuse texture? Do you have any tips on creating them?

Also, this was annoying me yesterday - does anyone know how to continue a path with the pen tool? It was annoying in that if you added a Vertex you didn't want, pressing undo would delete the entire path, rather than the last point.

So I thought OK, no problem, just close the path, delete the unwanted Vertex, then just continue the path.

In AI/PS this is very easy, just delete an anchor, click an open anchor with the pen tool, and you continue the path. The problem is in lightwave, there are no openings to the path. The path always self completes, and I couldn't work out how to create an opening in the path and continue drawing.

Cyrael

GAH! stay away from lightwave if you've still got a choice this early in the game, honestly I learned on lightwave and made the conversion to maya and I havn't touched lightwave since I learned maya - it's got a steeper learning curve but so much more potential, on top of the the user interface of lightwave is dated, by like 10 years. 90 percent of the things I've done can be could be done easier in maya then in lightwave. The only plus side to lightwave is its renderer is fairly nice, but if you've got maya then you've got mental ray - which is a pretty standard renderer - regardless if you're doing game stuff it rendering doesn't matter bc it's going to be real time anyway. You will only find yourself limited and frustrated with lightwave. (granted it has made huge progress with the advent of 9.6 and its fairly cheap but still not alternative to a real 3d package.) - if you like it, you like it though. good luck!

rumblesushi

Cyrael, thanks for the input. Obviously I've only just started playing around, I'm a complete nub in regards to modelling, so I haven't actually made a choice yet. In fact I haven't even had a proper play around with Max.

I was wondering why no-one mentioned lightwave actually, as I mentioned before. Does it really have a bad rep in the 3D modelling community then?

You mentioned Maya, but people seem to be suggesting Maya's modelling isn't great, and it's excellent rep is derived from it's other components (animation/effects maybe?).

Honestly though, I haven't even used LW enough to know if I genuinely like it, I mainly just like the clean interface, which has made it easier for me to work out how to do basic tasks compared to some of the other programs, including Blender.

Bear in mind I'm going to be making DS level graphics, very simple, very low poly (but with a lot of effort on texturing to make up for the polycount). Bearing that in mind, do you still think Lightwave would be limiting to me?

Could you give me an example of things that can be done easier in Maya (or other programs) than Lightwave?


Cheers,
RumbleSushi

hardhat

There are more comprehensive tutorials for creating and texturing models in the wikibook Blender 3D: Noob to Pro which is incomplete (as most wikibooks are), but it has the content and techniques that you want.

The fact is that modeling a character and then texturing it is not considered to be a beginner task, it is more of an intermediate skill level task.

I have mostly used 3DS Max, Maya, Blender and I also liked Milkshape 3D and Misfit Model 3D for doing low poly work. Of Max, Maya and Blender, I like Blender the best for doing unwrapping and texture work, and Max the best for doing low poly mesh editing. In the end, it mostly doesn't matter which one you use, as long as you work on it long enough to get good at it.