To Degree or not to Degree, that is the question!
polycounter lvl 17
I know this has been talked about alot, but I want to share with you guys my completely changed perspective and hopefully share the reason why its changed and maybe save some of you from being in the same position I find myself in.
I used to believe that it was pointless for me to spend 3 - 4 years at an art school to get a degree, because I knew from the past experiences that I would learn much more from places such as polycount, than I would at school. I knew I would be a better character artist by spending that 4 years making characters, getting into a local studio and just going for it.
I spent 1 year at a Higher Education college and got a diploma, but to be honest i didnt learn much at all - I learned way more online, at home, and in the after school classes run by game artists.
It left me with a pretty bad taste for schooling, and I really couldnt stomach another year even though just 1 more year of compacted studies could have earned my degree.
One thing however noone ever mentioned or told me, or that never even occured to me was the fact that without that piece of paper - my ability to relocate and work in places I dream of working, are significantly reduced.
The bottom line is, most visas require professionals to have degrees or the equivalent relevant experience. 3 years of relevant experience per 1 year of lacking education. So even if your a great artist, if youve done 5 years of freelancing, or even 7 years inhouse at a local studio but you do not have a degree. Your chances to enter the USA for example, are greatly reduced for a standard H1B Visa.
So - Getting that piece of paper ? its a sacrifice for a few years that may not teach you too much about how to be a better environment artist or character artist, but if you hope to one day relocate from where you are, to the US or the UK and work for that company youve always wanted to - THINK SERIOUSLY before waving the option away so easily!!!
I used to believe that it was pointless for me to spend 3 - 4 years at an art school to get a degree, because I knew from the past experiences that I would learn much more from places such as polycount, than I would at school. I knew I would be a better character artist by spending that 4 years making characters, getting into a local studio and just going for it.
I spent 1 year at a Higher Education college and got a diploma, but to be honest i didnt learn much at all - I learned way more online, at home, and in the after school classes run by game artists.
It left me with a pretty bad taste for schooling, and I really couldnt stomach another year even though just 1 more year of compacted studies could have earned my degree.
One thing however noone ever mentioned or told me, or that never even occured to me was the fact that without that piece of paper - my ability to relocate and work in places I dream of working, are significantly reduced.
The bottom line is, most visas require professionals to have degrees or the equivalent relevant experience. 3 years of relevant experience per 1 year of lacking education. So even if your a great artist, if youve done 5 years of freelancing, or even 7 years inhouse at a local studio but you do not have a degree. Your chances to enter the USA for example, are greatly reduced for a standard H1B Visa.
So - Getting that piece of paper ? its a sacrifice for a few years that may not teach you too much about how to be a better environment artist or character artist, but if you hope to one day relocate from where you are, to the US or the UK and work for that company youve always wanted to - THINK SERIOUSLY before waving the option away so easily!!!
Replies
Good point too about the non official degree's, its another facet of the whole scheme. Ultimately its your choice, but folks out there like myself, who want to end up either in the US / Canada or the UK need to put a bit more thought into obtaining that piece of paper, or hunkering down and staying put for many years to proove their mettle first.
Might be different in Australia tho .
I think thats because you are already a European citizen or resident ?
For example, If I wanted to live and work anywhere in Europe, a degree will greatly increase my chances of securing a visa to be able to do so. The new points based Tier visa system that was put into place a couple years ago pretty much cemented that.
Dont get me wrong, there still remains hope for those that do not have degrees, but its a hassle for the both the company willing to hire you, as their lawyers fees to find a 'creative' way to get you there, skyrocket! and for yourself to dig up paperwork, track down references, and proof of employment documents from 7 - 10 years ago!
I have a question regarding this topic, though: what kind of a degree do you need? How lenient are they when you don't specifically have something geared towards game creation? I'm currently attending university doing History, and it's so much fun that I doubt I'd ever want to work in games, but if I should want to, would a History degree be as worthless as having no degree at all?
Anything below Bachelor is imho a waste of time for immigration purposes since most visa require a 4 year degree and many places don't even know how to handle such degrees (Associate degree? what is that?)
In the EU, be wary of private schools who take a lot of money for games education. I saw some places which really tried to appear like proper colleges and then handed out diplomas which were recognised "by their school" or "the industry" ...in contrast to being recongised by the state. So be alert and read the small print carefully!
How much State X values degree from state Y is of course another matter. People with degrees from non western countries sometimes have troubles getting them recognised in states who think their educational system is better.
Zwebbie: Whilst I cant give legal immigration advice, what i can reiterate what most visa websites state, which is that your degree must be relevant to the field your entering the country to work for, so your history degree for example, would probably not be relevant if you were heading to country X to be a vehicle artist on the next big racing car game.
As far as I know, there is no leniency at all. There are however special visas for exceptional and outstanding professionals, the proof of this are things like a nobel prize, books being written about you, publications and awards for oustanding achievements in your fielf of practice. ( 1st place in Dominance war ?!?! )
If some other folks would care to share their experiences it would be welcomed.
Artists should minimally have a Bachelors Degree in Fine Arts from an accredited school. And anything higher such as a masters or even a Doctorate will only make securing that visa for you easier.
Kwramm: You make excellent points,couldnt agree with you more.
Yeah, I really think alot of it comes down to how 'creative' the immigration lawyers can be in obtaining your visa - Your friend must have had relevant experience as a compositor to make up for the lack of relevant education, if not I would LOVE to talk with his or her lawyer!!!!
I had made a thread similar to this before, although it was aimed at Where to relocate in the US of A, but the thought process I went through was very concurrent with yours.
Hence I decided to do a BFA from an in-country Uni.
Yes, it is that necessary if you want to go to a foreign land to serve
That's part of the reason I'm going to school. Social contacts and connections. I've already got a few connections through mod teams but I'd feel like I missed out on some fun if I don't go to ANY college. I'm getting help paying for the first year or two anyway so why not try it out and stop if it's not right.
After recently getting through four years of "art school", during our graduation ceremony I had the privilege to walk across the stage with incredibly talented classmates who I knew had what it took to succeed. I had seen their ambition, seen them work late nights in the studio, and seen the wonderful quality they could produce. However, I also shared the graduation line with people who would complete the bare-minimum just to pass. They just wanted to slide by in class and earn that degree in the end, hoping for an easy intro job right outta school. In a such a highly competitive field, I don't know what they smoked in between classes, but I guarantee that diploma didn't grant that magic job!
Bottom line is, if you choose to go to University or College, you're at least going to get what you put in. If you work hard, it may be tough, but you'll enjoy the success of your labors. Also, there's a certain "experience" one gleans from college that most cant get any where else. The social environment can be a wonderful shock! You get to be tossed in with people from all walks of life, with all kinds of different experiences to learn from. So higher-learning isn't always just what you major in ^_~
Oi, and who knows- if you're single, you might find someone very special in your degree that you may have never met otherwise. That's how I met my sweet-heart...only problem is, now we're both poor-outta-college kids fighting for the same jobs!
Oh well, I hope that helps a lil'. Good luck in your decisions!
tbh it looks like it makes things infinitley easier witha degree. Unfortunatley (for the most part) i hated every moment of going to uni... was taking away time i tried to spend actually learning :poly141:
still got another 7 classes to do before i can graduate.
Oh and you should be fine in aus, we've got no shortage of good uni's... it's actually sitting through them for 3-4 years is the hard part
not having visa probs i hope haz :P
http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/ <---- USA
You'll want to check/ find a site like the one above for your country, which lists the accredited schools that will offer a degree that IS recognised by immigration.
I am still in the process of finding out wether QANTM ( the school in which I sat my diploma ) is in fact recognised internationally as an accredited educator in Australia.
Heres hoping!!!!! Otherwise.... what a kick in the ass for me!
This is a pretty hairy subject and the further I delve into it ( due to persuing my own relocation ) the more worms I seem to dig up.
Nizz: Its a pretty tough ride so far man, nothing comes easy though ! Its all about keeping at it!! Ill go down swinging thats for sure!
What I'm trying to figure out is it worth spending 3 years on a normal "high school"(we call it a gymnasium) education in order to gain acces to the art schools we have here in denmark, or should one just keep studying from home and build a portfolio?
However, if you wanted to gain some work experience here in the UK without a degree, you can apply for a Youth Mobility Visa, which allows you to work here for up to two years as long as you're under 31 years old. I think this replaced what they used to call the working holiday visa.
I've known loads of Aussies / Kiwis / Tazzies that have come to work in London on this system (and the Australian ex-pat community here is really strong), so it might be worth checking out.
http://www.workgateways.com/working-uk-visas.html
http://www.workgateways.com/working-visa-faqs.html
It kind of sucks, but governments seem to think that degrees always mean things. I wouldn't personally have the job I do now if I hadn't gone for a degree, plus it allowed me 4 years to figure myself out and get a much better portfolio together. It was kinda crap that it cost so much money, but I got some stuff out of the school at least. Some decent classes on figure drawing, illustration and anatomy. It was less about what the teachers said and more about having a place to actually do stuff and get my hands dirty. I'd do it again for sure.
Even for people who dont' think they'll ever leave their own country... you might think that now, but if you lose your job 5-6 years down the line and there's a fantastic opening in the UK, or Canada or Australia or the US, and you get a phone interview, you don't want to hear their voices fall when you confess to not having a degree. You don't want to be prevented from landing a job you otherwise would've got just because getting you a visa is too hard.
1. Standard liberal arts degree from an accredited University. For game development, you will either want a fine arts degree, probably with a focus on studio art, or a more technical computer science degree. These aren't strictly necessary, but they are good degrees that will provide you with a lot of the education necessary for good art, or good programming. They will also open up other job possibilities in case it takes you a while to get into a game company. A BA or BS from an accredited University is something almost any company will take into consideration.
2. Certification. With the highly technical nature of game development, it never hurts to get certified in some of the latest programs. A university degree provides no assurance that you are up-to-date on the latest software. But certification will convince a potential employer that you know the tools they use. For most of the crowd around here, being certified in 3D Max and/or Maya is your best bet. Getting certified in some of the standard Adobe packages is also a good idea. (Photoshop, Fireworks, Flash, etc...)
3. Portfolio. This is in many ways more important than any of the other factors. All of the education in the world won't mean dick if you can't prove that you know how to use what you've learned.
It' doesn't have to be waste of time. I'm having lots of fun so far - meeting new people, doing some lifedrawing, painting, composition, typography, expanding my interests e.t.c. - stuff that makes you better artist all-around.
This is great advice^^^
You should also seriously consider geting a BSC in architecture instead of fine arts or programming. Some game art jobs mention architecture as a desired qualification. And it's a versatile degree to have even if you're not going to be in the game industry.
That is a good idea. A lot of the fundamentals that you would learn in an architecture program would translate very well into level design. Not to mention that much of the CAD software you would learn to use in such a program has a lot in common with most level-editing software. And of course, contractors and architects usually make some good money, just in case game development doesn't work out.
Here comes my question to you.
If you have done 7 years of programming, 12 years of visual arts, 5 years of 3d modeling. 4 years of freelancing inhouse at a local studio but dont have a 3d animation diploma/degree dont have 3d game development degree / diploma yet you own 3ds max, Zbrush 3.5 R3, paintshop, VisualStudio.NET 08 Pro. Your computer is pretty high tech that is desgined for 3d modeling and game development.
....why would you want to work for someone else who is doubting your work (being a nut) and requires a piece of paper of some college which judged you on your art skills. Why not start on your own if you know all the stuff? (start-up business for software development and game development requires a very least $s, under 10k for setup)?
This proves that nut also that you were qualified for the job and he just rejected you. imo.
to Hazardous ,
where you want to work? united states?
i dont know much about US, but i think i had the sameprob too.
if you have 5-7 years experience ,,, whoa you d get accepted ...
just be patience, also now world economy is not in good shape.
little story from my experience :
I am from non commonwealth country, i have no family or friend in canada when i arrive here ....
back then i graduated in vfs (canada), my portfolio got exposure in cgtalk frontpage,
then i got some phone call or email from canada and US
i was excited , but after realizing that i dont have any work experience ( yes, none ) and degree or even university diploma, the opportunity light has been shed away ....
even more sad the place where i study is not admitted by government to issue graduate work permit. because its not a degree granting school. so i have to depend in work experience which is, zilch or impossible because i didnt have one ...
but i i didnt give up, i try to take another year , this time, i take course in degree granting school like BCIT , but not for degree, just 1 year certificate . and i made another demoreel.
this time, i can get my work permit/visa after graduated , also having fun with new portfolio.
but when i graduated ..., local economy went really bad, many studio closes ....
so i search other province for gig. and after several fail attempt , boom
here i am working in montreal.
i already spent so much time for study ( i studied 2.5 years in malaysia before i came to canada, and not even finished)
worthed or not just let it be one of my past ....
i still want degree, not for visa, but for real study in pure fine art.
hopefully one day
ps: sorry for my funny grammar
I think you got the wrong idea somewhere here, theres no problem with the company, and noone from the company is basing my work on any pieces of paper, they offered me a position knowing i have very little formal 'higher' education.
Its immigration that issues you with a visa in order to legally live and work at the chosen country/company, and its immigration which imposes the the rules.
In my situation, The job is there waiting for me, and the company is being very patient, im just being held up ( mostly ) because I do not have a degree and im walking a very fine line with regards to how many years of exp i have to make up the required difference in lack of education.
IF i did have a degree, I would be in California right now and have passed through the visa stage. Thats really what i wanted to start this thread about.
With regards to your suggestion about starting your own company instead...yeah you could look at it that way, but thats a whole new ballgame. Not one that im prepared to even think about really until ive got some solid experience and understanding under my belt!
xvampire: Thanks for writing that man, appreciate it! And dont worry, im not giving up in any way shape or form. Im hoping to eventually end up in the US, though I am a Canadian citizen already so it will be easier for me to settle in Canada at some point!
Its great to hear your eventual sucess after all those years of trying though!
!! I think I disregarded that part of your original post. Well, do not give up.
That kinda sucks
I had me into this very same confusion lately, although no ones offering me a job :P
After much fact finding about the US immigration system - which has the most strict regulations ever >.<, I finally decided to enroll for a BFA program from an accredited university. I don't know about you, but I know that I fall back at many times due to lack of traditional skills, so I would say go for a Fine Arts degree if you haven't decided already, it is going to be of huge plus for you.
Edit: Aaah, just checked out your folio.. had me cursing the US immigration laws. Yeah it sucks, they need a document which will take you four more years to get while you're already at a good skill level
Thanks for your post man, i made a large post in my blog about my lack of fundamental art knowledge and its impact on me, but polycount ISNT my blog :P
However, like your thinking, its made me look into securing one very seriously. Im considering a Fine Arts Degree at the Academy of Arts Uni in San Fran
I backed out from moving to states for studies because, well, they won't let me work for a year after I got there! Its pretty costly out there and I don't have enough chips xD
Anywho, go go go! The FA program at AA looks sweeeet!
Getting a work visa for commie china was easy compared to getting one for the land of the free
lol thats soo irony
Have you looked into the TN Visa? It's a work visa specifically for the United States that is issued to Canadian and Mexican citizens. I've heard it's possible to be issued one with just 3 years of professional experience and a 2 year college diploma (as opposed to a 4 year Uni degree for the HB VISA).
The tricky part is that they're issued at the port of entry (airports or borders) by Border Patrol Officials, and if you get someone who's clueless or is having a bad day, they have the power to deny you for any reason. :poly127: Another reason why the US needs to rehaul their work visa system.
By the way, because it's only granted to certain professions, you'd have to be listed as a Graphic Designer. I have read quite a few instances online of 3D Graphics professionals obtaining the TN Status via Graphic Designer so it IS possible...
Hope this helps : )
It has gotten a bit easier to get a H1-B visa in the last year or so. This is because a lot of IT companies that were using up the visa quota are no longer hiring due to the financial crisis.
You still have to meet the eligibility criteria though.
Thanks for your post man! the TN visa is the next stage in the process, so will be seeing how this pans out as well! At the moment the possibilities are the H1B the TN and even the J1 visa ( J1 requires ALOT of shenanigans on the part of the employer and more shenanigans for the immigration lawyers )
And regarding the 'Graphic Designer' profession - strangely enough almost my first 5 years of employment was as a graphic designer haha! So I should be ok!
sprunghunt & Justin_Meisse) : Interesting, food for thought comments for sure!
My back story is pretty much identical yours hazardous (yea, I'm even from NZ). It always seemed illogical to spend 4 years working on a degree, so I just jumped in and started working. It sucks that your having troubles, hopefully they can still get you over there soon.
Personally visas have been a real fuck-around for me thus far. It was about 8-9 months in between first being approached by the last company i was working for here in the Netherlands, till I actually arrived (not all of that time was waiting on visas, but it took a few months at least). That wasnt really to do with my lack of a degree, mainly my nationality. Plus when that company went bankrupt, my visa was void, so next week I will be heading back to NZ.
America seem particularly fucked as far as visas are concerned. I wish you all the best, and I'm sure you'll have a great time in Cali... eventually :S. If it doesn't work out for you, there is alway Europe and Canada.
yeah, I heard that too. I still think it's quite an investment of work, time and money for a company to hire someone from outside the US. That's the other hurdle. To actually be good enough to be considered worth of all this effort. I don't really have that much of inside knowledge, but I think for a US company it's much easier to hire an american than a foreigner. This is true for every other country though, but I think the hurdles to hire foreigners may not be that high for a company in other countries.
Awesome, after this thread got my interest, I looked it up and was curious whether my 2 year diploma thing would count towards a TN. I absolutely would not have the time or money to do another 4 years... Good, my faith is restored in one day being able to work/live in the states.:)
Also, Good Luck Hazardous!