Borderlands and Codehunters- Too Close?
This is starting to get some traction around the internet, and people are split between: 'They're both cell shaded, so what?' and 'Holy Crap they just slapped a new name on it and screwed Ben Hibon'.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IeaC3Y8aac&feature=player_embedded[/ame]
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmeP1YkaeTo&feature=player_embedded[/ame]
I figured Polycount would be the place to get an opinion on this:
Kotaku posted this statement from Randy Pitchford at Gearbox:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IeaC3Y8aac&feature=player_embedded[/ame][ame]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmeP1YkaeTo&feature=player_embedded[/ame]I figured Polycount would be the place to get an opinion on this:
Kotaku posted this statement from Randy Pitchford at Gearbox:
"I would like to thank news sites who chose to share the awesome work in Code Hunters with their readers. It's great content and one can no doubt imagine that a number of artists and designers at Gearbox were inspired and influenced by it. It was inspiring to me when "The Incredibles" was clearly a big source of influence for titles like Battlefield Heroes and Team Fortress 2 (and other amazing games and media). Perhaps with more attention from gaming news sites and other sources, Code Hunters can be more respected and honored for their innovation and leadership in CG as well. Maybe I'm too optimistic to believe that Code Hunters can get as much attention as Pixar (with due respect I believe they deserve), but with the help of gaming news sites and others who care about great content, maybe more people can notice and recognize and, perhaps, be inspired by it."
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I laughed at Randy's comment, that guy never stops putting a smile on my face. Though he does have a point. If Codehunters was better known nobody would think of Borderlands as of plagarism.
Anyway...
Looking like an art style is one thing (TF2/Heroes vs. Incredbiles) but "borrowing" art style, setting, rendering methods, character design (a stretch here, but a slim dude, a chick and a large brute? c'mon) and an intro sequence is FAR beyond 'being inspired'.
Meh, both have cel shading.
Codehunters is one of those things i see and think "thats fucking cool, i wouldnt mind an 'x' in that kind of style". Perhaps its a bit too close for comfort and at first I actually wanted to see if ben holden had any involvement in gearbox - if he had, i think that would of made the whole thing feel a lot better.
Still, It does feel like a bit of a cop out to just draw that much inspiration from one place - I totally love what SD are doing with shit like Brink, unless ofc they have something to tell us too about an unknown video? :P
The thing is that Code Hunters isn't the first to do these things either. Like crazyfingers I have also made the connection to Gorillaz videos. It's pretty much a mash-up of different techniques that have been around for some time; I don't mean to bash Gearbox, nor the creators of Code Hunters but none of them has the right to put an "original-idea-do not-steal" sticker.
and Randy's comments are just entertaining
CodeHunters reminds me more of Trigun with brown cell shading-ness with some Fantasy but not quite Final in there..
After the bus intro, the two really do not match much at all.
Setting, I dunno... CodeHunters seemed more post-apoc whereas Borderlands is run-down corporate hell.
You're missing my point. Gorillaz videos, while "toon" (fucking hate using this word, btw), does not look anything like this particular style of cartoon rendering. Whereas Borderlands AND Codehunters have very similar methods of cartoon rendering.
By your comparison, I could say I see a little bit of Gorillaz in Team-Fortress 2 which would then mean Borderlands looks like TF2, which it does not. "Toon" comparisons are far too general for this particular situation.
Borderlands and max payne both use EXACTLY the same type of 32 BIT COLOR TEXTURES.
Anyway, no one is saying they're identical. Clearly they are not.
to clarify, the differences i see are palette is nothing similar (and the palette in code hunters is, i'd say, a distinct trait) details are nothing similar, borderlands is very plane-y and chiseled and codehunders is pretty muddy, setting is superficially similar (in so far as they're dusty deserts with manly shit in them) but doesnt seem to have much in common, lighting style is similar but not enough to be suspicious, some character designs are pretty similar... I honestly can't see how you would think this was outright derivative. Influenced by, but not in so far as that it permeates its every essence.
Sorry, didn't make myself clear - by mentioning Gorillaz I had mainly character designs in mind and some other design choices. The style reminds me more of Asian comics and animation mixed with western stuff.
*edit- just watched the code hunters vid. I forgot it in fine detail, and that bus is pretty one to one.
Has any artist ever created anything without using that method, applied to one thing or another?
Well, yes. I didn't see any gunship trains shooting 20m bullets in Borderlands.
I'd be curious as to what your definition of 'high level artsy shit' is and how the one has it while the other does not.
I'll wager that if you took movies from both and inter spliced them, your average joe wouldn't be able to tell where one stops and another begins. Beyond the shot to shots of the intro, ass cam, etc. I think BL takes their inspiration a bit too far.
Which isn't to say that you can't take inspiration, but TF2 at least combines Incredibles style with '30s illustration style. They've been pretty clear on their inspiration of the latter, anyway. Battlefield Heroes doesn't nearly rip anyone off as blatantly.
Not saying it's a bad art style, because Borderlands is probably the prettiest game of 2009 - but it owes so much that it's pretty ridiculous not to have mentioned it previously... reading Randy Pitchford's reaction, I'm amazed Gearbox didn't.
Yeah not to mention the 3 lead devs for WoW all met over everquest.
This is something people just have to learn to accept i guess, just like the satch vs. coldplay etc.
Even Cliffy B admits lifting pretty much all the gameplay in gears of war from killswitch.
On the topic-- the Borderlands style was obviously inspired by Code Hunters. Many of the shots were borrowed. I don't think it is really wrong, and I certainly enjoyed the game, but then it does reduce my respect a little for the art direction on Borderlands. But when I think about the stuff I liked best in the game, they were things like the funny robots, and the character designs, so maybe they do deserve my full respect.
But overall, it's similar, yeah. But I wouldn't say it's "too" similar. Daffy and Donald Duck are similar too, and they're drawn in a similar style even. But they're still totally different in plenty of other ways. When Max Payne first came out, I remember everyone saying they ripped off the Matrix. There are dozens of games with time-slowing now and it's not a big deal.
If you weren't already familiar with their differences, how many games would it look like there are in this picture? But no one would say any of them copied their style from the others, because there are lots of games with those similarities, so only the execution and the differences matter. After a handful more games with outlines and desaturated colors, the same will be true for those.
Also, Viewtiful Joe did that oversized bullet deflection thing years ago.
AZ, we should hang out with you some time.
No reason to get all upset, Borderlands is a fun and original game let's just be happy about that, instead of having some cliche halo-like sci-fi shooter.
while with borderlands it was all "so one day the art team took a daring move and totally changed it" and there has been no mention of codehunters ever never.
be gentlemen, mention your obvious influences, especially when your artstyle has been discussed quite alot.
http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=3620
You need to find his weak spot! What on earth could it beeee?
And that other four legged bigboss before him! Rediculous!
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/
I think if you're going to ape someone's rendering style (original or not) nearly 99% you should at least steer clear from the same setting, monster style, character style (and even character classing)...let alone recreate exact scenes at nearly the exact same time in the opening 10 minutes of the game and source.
To me that's just a little bit too far, kind of takes it out of homage and into "couldn't think of anything better so just take theirs."
Yeah that last boss was horrible,
"omg what should I shoot at, maybe that glowing ball thing?"
I'm glad, since if Borderlands didn't exist and I just watched this video I would have said the same thing!
Jet Set Radio Future is more cell shading, while borderlands is more of a comic book style. (Such as Crackdown, a friend of mine thinks crackdown has the "Best Cell Shading Ever" but hates the graphics in games such as Jet Set Radio and LOZ:The windwaker, not to mention windwaker doesnt even have cartoon outlines, just the shading.)
(also i think it's funny how many people didnt pay any attention to borderlands until they changed their art style)
I recall everyone flipping their lids when the September 2007 issue of Game Informer came out announcing Borderlands.
Everyone as in the internet, funny guy.
Went back and watched an old trailer. Seems more than the art changed.