What i dont get here is, ok you guys believe that global warming is crap, its a scam real etc. Honestly what negative side-effects are there to causing less pollution as a whole? We may find out in 500 years that we had nothing to do with it, but what is so threatening and scary about simply producing less pollution?
Snow is beautiful. But girls in bikinis more so. Nuff said.
true true
I feel the cold with 10ºC. Here, where we live, we aren't customed to the cold, but winters are very warm (5-12ºC) compared to other parts of my country. The worse thing here is the humidity, the sensation of cold is higher. I have to have a radiator in my room becuse all the papers i use to draw are like wet.
BTW, cold can be fought, but the heat not much without AC. We reached this past summer 48ºC!!, it was go out from home, and get fried as a chicken. You can get totally naked than you could never do anything, the unique solution is to be all the day in a room with AC.
We have had torrential rains weeks ago, with 1000+ liters per square meter. The city of Jerez was flooded by waters and our water reservoirs, in drought weeks ago, have almost replenish all the capacity in a few days. It's incredible, we also saw snow in places where the snow is something like impossible to see. Don't know if it something related to the climatic change, but the old people didn't remenber things like what we have seen on these days.
Errr.. we expect a summer with more heat, like 1 or 3 ºC more.
What i dont get here is, ok you guys believe that global warming is crap, its a scam real etc. Honestly what negative side-effects are there to causing less pollution as a whole? We may find out in 500 years that we had nothing to do with it, but what is so threatening and scary about simply producing less pollution?
I think people understand that co2 in itself isnt bad but infact vital, but think that excess co2 can infact be quite harmful, and we are producing it at a record pace.
I'm all for taxing pollutants if it equates to better air quality and and less disease related to smog etc. I know it may sound crazy, but this air stuff is actually pretty important to me.
To me it seems like the concern is that a bunch of people are going to profit off of any fundamental switch, which i would never argue with. Clever people are always going to find ways to make money, and i'm all for people making money actually helping to reduce pollution, and taking away some of that market from the people making INSANE money off of the oil industry and destroying the environment wherever there is financial gain.
How would you feel if in 500 years (lets say you lived that long) you found out that one of the reasons you were being taxed to death was bacause of a lie?
Probably a little better than being taxed to fund a bunch of programs I currently don't agree with. If I'm going to be taxed for something it would be nice to know at least part of it isn't a huge waste.
If you want to get your panties in a twist about taxes. You'll see taxes go up not because anyone raises them but because tax breaks enacted in 2000-2003 are about to expire. Wait no... this all started Jan 09!
Just because it might cost a little more doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. Sometimes doing whats right isn't always the cheapest. "But it costs" isn't a good excuse to kick it down the road when it will cost more and there will be less time to pay for it... Maybe we should have tackled this back when the gas shortages of the 70's where in full swing, maybe we would have already had it paid for?
It's always cheaper to abuse things rather than properly maintain them.
See the great dust bowl.
See the Aral Sea.
See deforestation everywhere.
See over fishing everywhere.
There has to be a distinction made between harmful chemicles and pollutants and co2. I think a lot of people equate co2 with being bad.
The chemicals and heavy metals I listed are pollutants. Arsenic: Used heavily in mining, washed right into rivers, steams and ground water. Also ends up in the huge piles of dirt waste they dump after they're done extracting the tiny amount of stuff they want. Lead: Was in gas, yea as in little lead particles being pushed into the air. It's still in a lot of gas sold across the globe. 60 years of leaded gas and its still not gone. It also comes from lead smelters, metal processing plants and incinerators. Mercury: Used in chemical manufacturing. Coal is also naturally contaminated with mercury. which we don't do much to get rid of it before we burn it. Guess where it goes... Yep its not just co2 being pumped out.
When there is more o2 than co2, it kills humans... I wouldn't get all warm and cuddly with excess amounts of co2. Sure we need some, but do we need more than what naturally occurs? Probably not.
Even if we need more its not like we don't know how to make it. Lets figure out how to live with out making more... its like a puzzle...
What i dont get here is, ok you guys believe that global warming is crap, its a scam real etc. Honestly what negative side-effects are there to causing less pollution as a whole? We may find out in 500 years that we had nothing to do with it, but what is so threatening and scary about simply producing less pollution?
My energy bills are already high enough. Research Cap & Trade. They want to charge/force companies to buy carbon credits if they emit CO2. This cost will be filtered down to the consumers. The bogus thing about this is, okay if CO2 is bad, why will you let companies continue to emit the same amount into the air as long as they pay for it?
The whole thing smells of a money making scam to make certain individuals rich in an all new carbon credit trading industry.
EricV who u making a bet with? and does he she have to pay you if they dont: can support a claim between climate change and other pollutants? (time limit?)
Im just showing that there are people that disagree and that there is much room for debate.
Why not say that, then?
Why not say 'while plausible, man-made climate change (and especially the ties to co2) is certainly not definitely proven, and we should maintain an open mind.' ? What you're doing right now is saying that this theory is not completely valid, so everybody should assume your even more asinine theory is DEFINITELY TRUE.
What everyone else is arguing (even vig, albeit with a heftier dose of dogma):
-We can say with some confidence the climate is PROBABLY changing. Climate change is a concern.
-We can logically say it is WORTH INVESTIGATING the possibility of man made causes.
You're contesting these things as if just because al gore is a politician and produced a documentary with some spin the whole angle of thought is absolutely invalid.
But you're missing the point I'm trying to make. This whole thing is based on data thats trying to tell us that co2 is the cause for global warming. Thats what this is all riding on. there is no data or cases made for the effect of arsenic and lead pumped into the atmosphere vs temperature change. Im sure there could be if someone was paid enough to find out, but presently how often do you hear about that in the news? Co2 is being thrown around like its this crazy cancer inducing substance.
Arsenic, lead and mercury all come out of the ground with coal, are not separated out and burned to make energy (its cost effective to leave it in and pollutes more if you try to take it out). It's taken out of the ground where its relatively safe and put into the air we breath and water we drink. If it was just co2 coming out of a coal plant we'd probably figure out a cool use for it but there's a lot more junk coming out.
Co2, ok its naturally occurring and it seems to spike all on its own even without human influence. So what happens when it spikes naturally and we've already spiked it?
What about the other crap we're burning and breathing right along with the coal?
You dont know what effects arsenic and lead have on climate change. It could be very little to none for all we know. It might not be good but the point is taxing people on polluting wont stop them. Its just going to generate more revenue for whatever government is enforcing this.
I could care less what lead mercury and arsenic do to climate change I know what they do to humans. Are you seriously saying that because they don't impact climate change that they have no other effects? Read up on that sh!t...
Also the crude we get out of the ground has to be refined which has its own by-products. Some oil comes from oil sands in Canada and Venezuela. Which is highly controversial as it costs more to extract and has a heavy environmental impact. But hey its all good, we don't need other cleaner renewable sources of energy. I could use a 4th arm and a set of eyes on my ass just because it I might pay $20 more in yearly taxes...
taxes are just one thing on the table. I can't say they'll fix the problem or that its the best solution but its better than doing jack dick nothing and just getting sicker and sicker.
Arsenic, lead and mercury all come out of the ground with coal, are not separated out and burned to make energy (its cost effective to leave it in and pollutes more if you try to take it out). It's taken out of the ground where its relatively safe and put into the air we breath and water we drink. If it was just co2 coming out of a coal plant we'd probably figure out a cool use for it but there's a lot more junk coming out.
Co2, ok its naturally occurring and it seems to spike all on its own even without human influence. So what happens when it spikes naturally and we've already spiked it?
What about the other crap we're burning and breathing right along with the coal?
I could care less what lead mercury and arsenic do to climate change I know what they do to humans. Are you seriously saying that because they don't impact climate change that they have no other effects? Read up on that sh!t...
Also the crude we get out of the ground has to be refined which has its own by-products. Some oil comes from oil sands in Canada and Venezuela. Which is highly controversial as it costs more to extract and has a heavy environmental impact. But hey its all good, we don't need other cleaner renewable sources of energy. I could use a 4th arm and a set of eyes on my ass just because it I might pay $20 more in yearly taxes...
taxes are just one thing on the table. I can't say they'll fix the problem or that its the best solution but its better than doing jack dick nothing and just getting sicker and sicker.
No I just said they probably have no impact on climate change. they probably arent good, and I dont doubt they have adverse affects on your health. Again I just dont think taxing companies is going to change a whole lot...which will then be passed down to the consumer, you and me. At least not initially. eventually I'm sure when enough people are out of jobs and demand goes down because people cant afford energy or gas then yeah we'll see a decrease in burned fossil fuels and so forth! Woo! lol
Since A(cap and trade?) isn't your cup of tea? Come up with something that works instead of killing what you think might not.
It's as if we pay enough in taxes already and its being sucked into a huge black hole of mismanagement. If only there was a way to get that money back...
Since A(cap and trade?) isn't your cup of tea? Come up with something that works instead of killing what you think might not.
It's as if we pay enough in taxes already and its being sucked into a huge black hole of mismanagement. If only there was a way to get that money back...
There only needs to be a plan B if you think CO2 is harmful. I don't think it is.
As for mercury and everything else, local state governments make sure that stuff isn't leaked into the water anyway.
btw I agree entirely with you on bringing the troops home around the world. Big waste to continue having troops sit around in Japan & Germany still with troops in 170 bases in all the other various countries too.
The only time the US military should be used is if Canada attacked Montana. Although I think with the high % of gun owners in that state I think they could take care of themselves...lol I envy countries like Switzerland. They mind their own friggin business and people are wealthier there because of it. Never attacked another country and never been attacked themselves if I recall.
There only needs to be a plan B if you think CO2 is harmful. I don't think it is.
That's only the solution, if you think co2 is the cause of global warming.
If co2 isn't the cause you still have global warming to deal with. So far the leading theory is co2. If they're wrong then we need to figure out whats causing it.
But that's only if you think global warming is behind the ice melt. If global warming isn't behind the ice melt what is? The ice melt is well documented. If its natural and can't be stopped, we need to figure out what its going to do and work around it the best we can as soon as possible.
So if its not co2 and its not global warming whats causing the ice melt?
But you only believe the ice is melting if you choose to look at the well documented practical observations by many different sources.
As for mercury and everything else, local state governments make sure that stuff isn't leaked into the water anyway.
Thats the job of the EPA. They are charged to protect human health and the environment, by writing and enforcing regulations based on laws passed by Congress.
The problem is we're all raised to believe that one person will raise up in the 11th hour and save everyone with one grand gesture. Every movie and story pitched to western culture is that way. Someone will save us, but it won't be me so I don't have to do anything. We can't accept that making small changes over time can have the same effect.
So if its not co2 and its not global warming whats causing the ice melt?
The natural warming and cooling periods the Earth has always gone through.
You're being really alarmist over this IMO. People are funny..."gotta do something now!" "gotta do something now!" "zomg look what our children are inheriting...etc."
I'm gonna go outside and breathe some fresh air. In 20,000 days from now when most of us are dead, things will still be the same.
People seem to have this idea in their head that we'll all be living off the grid and independent in some sort of future utopia. I guarantee you that will never happen. The two most profitable industries in the world are energy and transportation and our masters will make sure it stays that way till you die.
As for green jobs...pffft. A job that requires taking more from people via taxes to be created isn't a job...that is called "expanding government".
anywho, yeah this topic has probably run its course.
I dunno, it seems we're doing a pretty good job in scandinavia to keep things "green", only to be counterworked by all the bigger countries that spews out too much crap in the world.
I'm not looking for a world where everyone lives on planet full of blue people while sticking our tentacles into every animal there is, I'm just hoping every consumer in the world can stop being so goddamn lazy all the time, yes, you people, you know who you are.
Replies
I feel the cold with 10ºC. Here, where we live, we aren't customed to the cold, but winters are very warm (5-12ºC) compared to other parts of my country. The worse thing here is the humidity, the sensation of cold is higher. I have to have a radiator in my room becuse all the papers i use to draw are like wet.
BTW, cold can be fought, but the heat not much without AC. We reached this past summer 48ºC!!, it was go out from home, and get fried as a chicken. You can get totally naked than you could never do anything, the unique solution is to be all the day in a room with AC.
We have had torrential rains weeks ago, with 1000+ liters per square meter. The city of Jerez was flooded by waters and our water reservoirs, in drought weeks ago, have almost replenish all the capacity in a few days. It's incredible, we also saw snow in places where the snow is something like impossible to see. Don't know if it something related to the climatic change, but the old people didn't remenber things like what we have seen on these days.
Errr.. we expect a summer with more heat, like 1 or 3 ºC more.
life in a bubble man!
their everyday comfort?
I'm all for taxing pollutants if it equates to better air quality and and less disease related to smog etc. I know it may sound crazy, but this air stuff is actually pretty important to me.
To me it seems like the concern is that a bunch of people are going to profit off of any fundamental switch, which i would never argue with. Clever people are always going to find ways to make money, and i'm all for people making money actually helping to reduce pollution, and taking away some of that market from the people making INSANE money off of the oil industry and destroying the environment wherever there is financial gain.
If you want to get your panties in a twist about taxes. You'll see taxes go up not because anyone raises them but because tax breaks enacted in 2000-2003 are about to expire. Wait no... this all started Jan 09!
Just because it might cost a little more doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. Sometimes doing whats right isn't always the cheapest. "But it costs" isn't a good excuse to kick it down the road when it will cost more and there will be less time to pay for it... Maybe we should have tackled this back when the gas shortages of the 70's where in full swing, maybe we would have already had it paid for?
It's always cheaper to abuse things rather than properly maintain them.
See the great dust bowl.
See the Aral Sea.
See deforestation everywhere.
See over fishing everywhere.
The chemicals and heavy metals I listed are pollutants.
Arsenic: Used heavily in mining, washed right into rivers, steams and ground water. Also ends up in the huge piles of dirt waste they dump after they're done extracting the tiny amount of stuff they want.
Lead: Was in gas, yea as in little lead particles being pushed into the air. It's still in a lot of gas sold across the globe. 60 years of leaded gas and its still not gone. It also comes from lead smelters, metal processing plants and incinerators.
Mercury: Used in chemical manufacturing. Coal is also naturally contaminated with mercury. which we don't do much to get rid of it before we burn it. Guess where it goes... Yep its not just co2 being pumped out.
When there is more o2 than co2, it kills humans... I wouldn't get all warm and cuddly with excess amounts of co2. Sure we need some, but do we need more than what naturally occurs? Probably not.
Even if we need more its not like we don't know how to make it. Lets figure out how to live with out making more... its like a puzzle...
Click me.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123655590609066021.html
My energy bills are already high enough. Research Cap & Trade. They want to charge/force companies to buy carbon credits if they emit CO2. This cost will be filtered down to the consumers. The bogus thing about this is, okay if CO2 is bad, why will you let companies continue to emit the same amount into the air as long as they pay for it?
The whole thing smells of a money making scam to make certain individuals rich in an all new carbon credit trading industry.
"DATA CAN BE MANIPULATED. LOOK, I HAVE DATA THAT PROVES IT"
?___?
Why not say that, then?
Why not say 'while plausible, man-made climate change (and especially the ties to co2) is certainly not definitely proven, and we should maintain an open mind.' ? What you're doing right now is saying that this theory is not completely valid, so everybody should assume your even more asinine theory is DEFINITELY TRUE.
What everyone else is arguing (even vig, albeit with a heftier dose of dogma):
-We can say with some confidence the climate is PROBABLY changing. Climate change is a concern.
-We can logically say it is WORTH INVESTIGATING the possibility of man made causes.
You're contesting these things as if just because al gore is a politician and produced a documentary with some spin the whole angle of thought is absolutely invalid.
Co2, ok its naturally occurring and it seems to spike all on its own even without human influence. So what happens when it spikes naturally and we've already spiked it?
What about the other crap we're burning and breathing right along with the coal? I could care less what lead mercury and arsenic do to climate change I know what they do to humans. Are you seriously saying that because they don't impact climate change that they have no other effects? Read up on that sh!t...
Also the crude we get out of the ground has to be refined which has its own by-products. Some oil comes from oil sands in Canada and Venezuela. Which is highly controversial as it costs more to extract and has a heavy environmental impact. But hey its all good, we don't need other cleaner renewable sources of energy. I could use a 4th arm and a set of eyes on my ass just because it I might pay $20 more in yearly taxes...
taxes are just one thing on the table. I can't say they'll fix the problem or that its the best solution but its better than doing jack dick nothing and just getting sicker and sicker.
I'll hug a tree instead of a smoke stack any day.
No I just said they probably have no impact on climate change. they probably arent good, and I dont doubt they have adverse affects on your health. Again I just dont think taxing companies is going to change a whole lot...which will then be passed down to the consumer, you and me. At least not initially. eventually I'm sure when enough people are out of jobs and demand goes down because people cant afford energy or gas then yeah we'll see a decrease in burned fossil fuels and so forth! Woo! lol
Since A(cap and trade?) isn't your cup of tea? Come up with something that works instead of killing what you think might not.
It's as if we pay enough in taxes already and its being sucked into a huge black hole of mismanagement. If only there was a way to get that money back...
There only needs to be a plan B if you think CO2 is harmful. I don't think it is.
As for mercury and everything else, local state governments make sure that stuff isn't leaked into the water anyway.
btw I agree entirely with you on bringing the troops home around the world. Big waste to continue having troops sit around in Japan & Germany still with troops in 170 bases in all the other various countries too.
The only time the US military should be used is if Canada attacked Montana. Although I think with the high % of gun owners in that state I think they could take care of themselves...lol I envy countries like Switzerland. They mind their own friggin business and people are wealthier there because of it. Never attacked another country and never been attacked themselves if I recall.
If co2 isn't the cause you still have global warming to deal with. So far the leading theory is co2. If they're wrong then we need to figure out whats causing it.
But that's only if you think global warming is behind the ice melt. If global warming isn't behind the ice melt what is? The ice melt is well documented. If its natural and can't be stopped, we need to figure out what its going to do and work around it the best we can as soon as possible.
So if its not co2 and its not global warming whats causing the ice melt?
But you only believe the ice is melting if you choose to look at the well documented practical observations by many different sources.
Thats the job of the EPA. They are charged to protect human health and the environment, by writing and enforcing regulations based on laws passed by Congress.
The problem is we're all raised to believe that one person will raise up in the 11th hour and save everyone with one grand gesture. Every movie and story pitched to western culture is that way. Someone will save us, but it won't be me so I don't have to do anything. We can't accept that making small changes over time can have the same effect.
The natural warming and cooling periods the Earth has always gone through.
You're being really alarmist over this IMO. People are funny..."gotta do something now!" "gotta do something now!" "zomg look what our children are inheriting...etc."
I'm gonna go outside and breathe some fresh air. In 20,000 days from now when most of us are dead, things will still be the same.
List of glaciers growing...
http://www.iceagenow.com/List_of_Expanding_Glaciers.htm
People seem to have this idea in their head that we'll all be living off the grid and independent in some sort of future utopia. I guarantee you that will never happen. The two most profitable industries in the world are energy and transportation and our masters will make sure it stays that way till you die.
As for green jobs...pffft. A job that requires taking more from people via taxes to be created isn't a job...that is called "expanding government".
anywho, yeah this topic has probably run its course.
I'm not looking for a world where everyone lives on planet full of blue people while sticking our tentacles into every animal there is, I'm just hoping every consumer in the world can stop being so goddamn lazy all the time, yes, you people, you know who you are.
We can still live normal lives.