Freelance advice needed please:
interpolator
Okay, I have learned the hard way much about how to approach the payment side of things when working freelance.
One of the major issues I have however is that people contact me about work, and they have no idea how much time actually goes into 3d art. It's often people with low budgets who think they can make a game demo cheap, then get funds from investors.
So I tell them I will work 50 hours a week, and how much I charge for 1 weeks worth of work. Then I go on to explain how much time it takes to create a specific character, weapon, or asset.
My hourly rate is actually way lower than it should probably be, and I imagine my time approximations are average in length.
But what ends up happening is a lot of back and forth explaining workflow, and development time, and in the end they learn game development is more expensive then they imagined, and I never hear from them again.
Basically it's a huge waste of my time, and I find it really difficult to cut to the chase and find out if they know what they are talking about and serious about game development, and hiring me as a freelance artist.
[/lengthy explanation]
Does anyone know of a article I could possibly point them to that explains how much time it actually takes to create a next gen game character?
How do you guys manage to find serious freelance contracts, and weed through the garbage?
I mean, if you have a decent amount of people contacting you, it can become a full time job just answering and sorting through the emails.
Thanks in advance!
One of the major issues I have however is that people contact me about work, and they have no idea how much time actually goes into 3d art. It's often people with low budgets who think they can make a game demo cheap, then get funds from investors.
So I tell them I will work 50 hours a week, and how much I charge for 1 weeks worth of work. Then I go on to explain how much time it takes to create a specific character, weapon, or asset.
My hourly rate is actually way lower than it should probably be, and I imagine my time approximations are average in length.
But what ends up happening is a lot of back and forth explaining workflow, and development time, and in the end they learn game development is more expensive then they imagined, and I never hear from them again.
Basically it's a huge waste of my time, and I find it really difficult to cut to the chase and find out if they know what they are talking about and serious about game development, and hiring me as a freelance artist.
[/lengthy explanation]
Does anyone know of a article I could possibly point them to that explains how much time it actually takes to create a next gen game character?
How do you guys manage to find serious freelance contracts, and weed through the garbage?
I mean, if you have a decent amount of people contacting you, it can become a full time job just answering and sorting through the emails.
Thanks in advance!
Replies
watch out for folks who quote turbosquid at you:)
Best explain up front your pricing structure, saves wasting yours and their time.
never work for promised future rewards ie when they get funding etc
re the time taken, I did a next gen footballer, zbrush/low poly/ texures etc plus renders in 5 days, but i was awake most of the time.
That included a detailed pair of football boots.
I have been paid anything from 150 - 250 pounds sterling a day for my work if that helps.
just depends on the company and the job.
sometimes you just agree a set price for the whole job, but I still go by 5 day schedules to work out the price ie 5 days a week@ 8 hours a day
always try and get a buy out , so if either party at some point isn't happy , you can agree a fee for the work completed until they became unhappy:)
They could just get near the end and insist that the works not up to scratch otherwise and not pay you.
I had one big company who were real buggers for the payments, they just would not get back to me re the payments and it caused so much friction they pulled out.
The work was coming along fine too and I was left with half completed work. They just never got back to me in the end which was a real disgrace.
majority of companies are reasonable though from my point of view and I have only 'not' been paid on one occasion on 25 contracts so far.
All I try to do to those people is a quick breakdown showing hours i need to create something like that divide by their budget, giving me an hourly rate and point out that working at macdonalds will pay me 10 - 20 times as much as they are offering.
Otherwise, I Do know of seasoned pro's who have been around the block much longer than I have and they to still have to deal with those kinds of people.
So I dont think youll ever weed them out Theyll always be there no matter who you are or where you work!
I have been burned heavily in one contract before, which left me out of pocket $30,000 US as I had to pay my guys out of my own pocket when the money wasnt forthcoming from my client.
From that point onwards, I'll never start working until money arrives in my bank.
I lay down my terms clearly from the get go, and usually that gets rid of the timewasters and the serious ones really have no problem moving onto further negotiations / details.
I dont think what your doing is wrong, if anything Im pretty sure thats just the nature of being fulltime freelance
I know sometimes its difficult for you to say how hard or how much of your time it will take at once to do "that" project.
My guess is, try better companies to work with, no amateur companies, see the titles that the company already worked with. I'm sure you can find better clients. But also, remember that even in the best clients, with the best credits, there are always someone behind it that is really bad, and you will still have to lead with that.
For a nextgen character usually it takes from 2-4 weeks to be done. I already saw a character take 3 months with friends of mine because of the back and forth of the client and also lack of briefing. If the client dont send every info you need, ASK them, always better to know what they really want instead of them concepting your character in between you are modeling, which is sometimes normal, but I know, takes time.
Usually, for a character there are some steps I consider on delivering, and most of the clients are very good on that, many are not of course:
- base mesh
- high mesh
- low
- uvs
- bakes
- base texture color
- details texture diffuse
- spec color and normal map overlays.
In-between these steps, there are ALWAYS changes. There were already clients that asked me after the bake to change the low and uvs, and etc. Which is terrible!!! I know...
As for getting better clients? Having good work on your portfolio is the way to go. Also good communication skills.
^ Listen to this guy. I do the same thing, although most of the freelance stuff I do these days is web-based, it definitely helps to be up front w/ your pricing like someone said earlier. You have to realize that most of these people are clueless as to the amount of work that actually goes into some of this stuff..in fact, them being clueless about it is exactly why theyre hiring you in the first place probably
That said, I find its great to first ask them exactly what they want, then figure how long that would take you, quote them and break it down hourly. Be professional and tactful, and if they can't afford you, refer them to places like Turbosquid.
Also, I always request a 50% deposit on the quoted price prior to the commencement of any work, and the balance before any usable assets are delivered.
The first time I did a job for a new client I made a few mistakes. We had a meeting where they outlined the project and the style they were looking for. And I had to give an overview of time and money I'd be needing.
I thought I clearly understood what they wanted. I told them the days I'd be needing and the money I ask for a day, but I completely underestimated the time it took for the concepts to be approved by them.
Communicating is a delicate issue. And one obvious fact isn't always the same for two people. In the end I needed around 9-10 days for the whole project, of which roughly 2/3 of the time I didn't get paid. That was the time I send in concept after concept, waiting for them to agree on it. In the end the amount of money I earned was less then what I could have earned washing dishes.
The good thing is, the company offered a full time position after a few freelance jobs. Which is what I was after as I never wanted to work freelance in the first place.
I guess in your situation I would make an offer, outlining the time (plus a bit of extra time) and money you need and the steps (concepts, approval, prototypes etc) you do. If they don't agree tell them in a polite way to look for somebody else. And, as somebody else suggested, ask for some money in advance. I guess this only applies for bigger projects though.
P.S.: That leads me to a question of my own. Just out of curiosity and without judgement, what do you guys enjoy about freelance?
For me freelance clearly isn't the way to go as I can't negotiate and sell my skills well I'm afraid. I prefer to agree on a fixed income once, and then don't worry about contracts/money anymore for the next year or so.
But I can also see some great things about it. Like working from home (with kitchen in range) and the possibility to define my own work-rhythm.
However I also felt the danger of neglecting my personal free time, working at "impossible" hours (late at night and on the weekend).
I prefer when my boss can see me work hard at the regular work times. Even if the work doesn't get finished in time, he can still see me trying. While when working freelance I always had the feeling I'm not working enough.
I recently graduated from college and I have a regular job (2 now), but when I had just 1 job it was one that I hated very much and the freelance not only gave me a break from that, but I also made more money in a shorter amount of time
Hazardous: Yeah, I was getting paid so little in my first freelance job, that if I simply worked for food, I would essentially be getting paid a lot more! I learned to work for an hourly rate after that, and if it was by the project, I have to over shoot my time estimates if anything.
I think it's difficult at times to lay down your terms right off the bat and not come off as rude, but I guess it's the only way to quickly find out if the client is serious.
bugo: I agree with the no amateur companies idea, that would probably eliminate all the non-sense. Although most of the people who contact me at this point are amateur companies and I try to make it work. I guess that's my first problem. Thanks for the advice.
fiveway, ScoobyDoofus, serialkiler: All good points you guys make thanks.
Joe Lemonade: Honestly the only reason I am doing freelance work at this point is that freelance is a way I can make money and continue to grow as an artist. I'm actively trying to get into a game studio somewhere and freelance is a nice way for me to pay the bills and work towards an in-studio job.
I do believe that once you get some good contacts, build a reputation, and high skill/speed level, freelance work could be a lot better than working in a studio. You could make more money and work only on projects you are really interested in.
Its not so much of an enjoyment thing. I'd much rather work a nine to five simply because I know how much money I'm making, and when, and I too am not that great at advertising myself and skills.
Freelancing does have its benefits though. It's a way to improve my work speed, learn what I can and can't do in a certain time range, gain experience about working for someone else, and hopefully get paid while doing it.
I find most of my really good freelance work comes from contacts I've made within the industry. I'm working on a freelance contract right now that will last for 4 months. I got it through someone I know in the industry. On the other hand there are times when I have nothing lined up for months.
I honestly prefer working full-time for a studio because I find it less stressful. It's terrifying to finish up some freelance work only to find you have nothing lined up but you do have bills to pay and a family to feed.
I'm working on a casual game right now and I'm using freelance work to pay for that. I charge enough for freelance work that I can do that part-time and work on my own games the other half of the time. Never sell yourself short, charge what you are worth and you deserve. They aren't paying you solely for the work, they are paying you for the years it took you to learn how to do the work.
http://www.27bslash6.com/p2p.html
skylebones: Yeah, I have felt that getting contacts in the games industry first by working at a studio was the way to go and it sounds like you are living proof. Fortunately after about 2 years of being out of school and working my ass off on portfolio stuff, I think I now have some studio job opportunities.
gavku: lol ... that was really entertaining, thanks man! I like the pie chart about chances of him making 40 million, ha ha.
Most important is to be up front about what you want to be paid, and how long it will take you. Always shoot for an hourly rate, unless the lump sum is very nice. And it may sound strange but quote more hours than you think it will take, to compensate for any revisions that are going to come your way. At a fix price you could get stuck revising something repeatedly just to get paid. If the client knows those revisions will cost them more hours then they will to get you paid and move onto to something else.
For pay rate i tend to go with $30 an hour for project that will take a good amount of time, and flat rates for things that wont take a lot of time. 30 an hour is fair as most freelance is not exactly full time, so a higher pay rate will help compensate the lack of hours. To put it in perspective a friend of mine made $22 an hour as a contract worker for R&H it seems low but with 15 hour days it adds up quick. So for a freelance job 30 an hour is pretty decent if your getting 8 hours a day.
Find that studio job if you can but keep the freelance up you never know when you'll find a company that compensates its contract workers better than its salaried workers.
I'd just like to say that this isnt necessarily true either - a contract IS a legally binding document, but unless you as the the freelance artist are in the habit of taking EVERY new contract to be looked over by a lawyer to ensure it is sealed tighter than a nuns box - in the case of a showdown, the company issuing the contract can / will pull out all the stops to win.
Compound this with the fact that the issuer of the contract is usually based overseas, meaning the case / law / facts need to be reviewed by overseas lawyers - you need to ask yourself do you really think you have the money to go chasing someone who hasnt paid you in the first place ?
This is what happened to me, I'm based in Australia, client was in the US - I performed a service, didnt get paid. Tried to get it sorted, lawyers and whatnot to no effect. It needed to be sorted in the US - got in touch with some reputable US lawyers and stopped when they looked over my case and told me how much money i needed to put forward as a retainer to even begin the case - i just didnt have that kind of money floating about at that time.
End result $30,000 US out of pocket for me.
So I would go officially on record and say that even when you have a contract - it doesnt gaurantee you a monetary result. Despite whats written inside it. You can take my word on that one!