Modelling the hands - how??
Hey guys, new guy here.
For the last few years hands (and organic shapes in general but that's for another thread XD) have been my biggest problem - because I just can't find any good tutorials on them! I have completely no idea how to model a good, anatomicaly-correct hand and my latest attempt ended up like this:
Right now I'm working on a mod and need a pair of hands to hold the guns so I really, really have to learn how to model them. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spots but I've looked through the entire internet and didn't find a good tutorial on that.
So could you guys please enlighten me, give me some links to the tutorials you know, perhaps some hints? Please? I really can't find anything on the subject.
For the last few years hands (and organic shapes in general but that's for another thread XD) have been my biggest problem - because I just can't find any good tutorials on them! I have completely no idea how to model a good, anatomicaly-correct hand and my latest attempt ended up like this:
Right now I'm working on a mod and need a pair of hands to hold the guns so I really, really have to learn how to model them. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spots but I've looked through the entire internet and didn't find a good tutorial on that.
So could you guys please enlighten me, give me some links to the tutorials you know, perhaps some hints? Please? I really can't find anything on the subject.
Replies
http://www.cgarena.com/freestuff/tutorials/max/handmodeling/hand_modeling.html
http://plissken.fatalunity.com/tutorials/subdiv/
Oh, and welcome to PC
2 - draw some more,
3 - start a new hand model from scratch
Done! No tuts needed!
[Edit : not to sound like an ass, but you say that this is your last attempt at an anatomically correct hand. You really didn't notice that your middle finger is longer than the others? No tutorial would cover that for you...]
Good luck!
@jocose
All those tuts you posted except the middle one from cgarena seem to be really tricky for a game model plus they're all tailored mainly for sub-d. Is this really how you guys do things? Or do you use other techniques?
@pior again:
I can't really 'draw hands on paper'. Well, I can but they won't look like hands XD. The problem is I totally suck at drawing.
What is your technique for doing hands, guys?
Btw. thanks for such a quick reply.
Also pior is right about drawing a hand. Using your hands to draw something really helps you visualize the shapes. You don't need to draw the hand well you just need to draw it so you have the shapes and the loops in your head before you jump into a 3D app. Also, unless you have the anatomy memorized, I would rotoscope a photo of a hand. It's a a good way to learn the shapes.
You should practice more man, learning to draw will go hand in hand with your 3d, propelling it to new heights alot quicker than continuing to suck at drawing will,
Youve got 2 hands (hopefully) take alook at them and compare them right next door to your model, put your hand up on the screen, and make adjustments that you see.
http://www.androidblues.com/handtut.html
Same with the model, the topology shouldn't be terribly difficult, but you've got to know what a hand looks like, and that's not something a tutorial can tell you. Only analysing hands and practicing drawing them can do that.
I'm of the mind that an organic object it should be done in an organic manner as in a modelling app like zbrush/mudbox/3dcoat etc. But whatever.
What you need is a good ref, luckily you have one a perfect one right on you. Just look at your own hand hold it steady in a relaxed position. Then move the models verts etc to form roughly the shape of the hand. Focus on bits at a time say getting the palm width shape, then the palm length shape, then the positioning of the fingers etc. When you do this just do your best guess dont worry about getting it spot on. After that start trying to get the rough shapes of the fingers and palms etc. Placing the geometry down to get the rough fingers, hand shapes etc.. Keep going through the model getting it roughly similar to your hand and stop when you want to.
edit : Personally I dont think it matters whether you know how to draw, you just need to observe.
http://wiki.polycount.net/Limb_Topology
Though I agree with the advice above about drawing hands, drawing is still the best way to develop an understanding of the human form.
http://www.asepulveda.com/2008/07/topologies-in-production/
The topology works really really well as you can see from this link:
http://igorstefanovic.com/projects/character-development/human-hand-study.html
The hand in the second link is the same as in the first so you should be able to mimic the topology pretty easily. If all else fails i can show show you the one i made as a result of looking at this.
there that is your reference. (if you have no hands i apologize. your first image has all the fingers flat across, which tells me you have never actualy looked at your hands. the second your 2 outer fingers are the same length and the 2 inner are the same length.. so you still have never looked at your hands you just read where pior said the middle finger is longer. and i guess you didnt realize which middle one he meant (i mean not counting the thumb theres 4 fingers! that makes 2 middle ones so may as well make them both longer.
you should not wory about sub d or game rez model or tech stuff like that untill you at least have some idea what a hand looks like and how it moves.
http://anatomy.med.umich.edu/radiology/xray/images/wrist_hand_x_ray.gif
really i dont how you can post a thread asking about this before you at least look at your hands. get a ruler measure your fingers the width of your hands . (again i apologize profusely if you are some flipper baby)
Oh well, it takes all sorts :-/
yes.
yes he is.
*backs out slowly*
Btw. if it was as easy as looking at my hands there wouldn't be any tutorials for it, right?
i apologize in retrospect, i think what you have done looks great! keep up the good work!
I strongly suggest actually rigging up whatever hand you make and see how it deforms. You'll learn more than you'll ever need by doing that.
Here is a paint over I did a while back that helped someone who had the same trouble.
Does the gif mean I should model my hands with fingers apart, though? Explain pls?
Btw. love your avatar ^^
@Rhinokey:
Your sarcasm doesn't work on me. You fail, again. The fingers on my second picture are not of the same length. And even if their length isn't ideal, who cares? I've got bigger problems when it comes to the hand modelling and a symbolic finger length difference is already on my model.
I don't know if you are trying to help me or make yourself feel better, I honestly don't. But if you really are trying to help me, this is really not the way, thx.
Edit:
I have a growing desire for a timelapse of modelling a hand. Ofc. I can probably manage by looking up all the stuff you guys linked me to but I'm just putting it out there. If one of you has got some free time then I'd be more than happy to help you waste it :P Please don't flame me for 'being lazy', I'm just putting the idea out.
Seems like you are still searching for tutorials, topology references and whatnot.
So : where is the screenshot of your hand model, with a reference plane in the backgroud textured with a nice picture of a hand that you either found somewhere (or drew YOURSELF), overlapped with your model ?
Once you'll get better at anatomy you can go without that kind of helper. But at the moment it's pointless to continue asking for tuts if you don't show us that. Your model and a reference image, inside your 3D app.
Do it!
Like it or not, Rhinokey is being very helpful here.
Also, careful with that :
So ... you want to model hands, but don't want to model hands hehe.
I think what we are trying to say is that, hands are a very subtle thing (as you might have realized already - since now you know that modelling them is hard). If you start being selective about them, like, "I want to make them good enough but I don't care much about relative finger lengths", it's bound to fail. ("You fail, again." hehe) For instance, in order to understand the relative lengths of fingers you want to see where they end ... as much as where they start. Oh and then ... wait, there's bones in there? ... oh wait there's tendon stuff aswell! ... oh and flesh under the hand! But not much on top? < see? It's all connected. Ask yourself questions and solve them all.
OR! Maybe you are going for a completely different kind of hand, like, cartoon Mickey Mouse hands? In that case that's a whole different business, so please tell us.
Pior, it's not that I'm 'still searching for tutorials'. It's that I'm open to any and all additional suggestions. Btw. what do you think is best for me? A hand-drawn hand or a photo as a reference image?
Dandi, I think doing anything you can to deepen your knowledge of hand anatomy is going to help. You need to marinate in hands for a good long while. If you didn't have and hand fetish before its time to start one. Draw them, dream about them find out what makes them do what they do, really dig into. When you start to learn about all those little things and how and why they move and do what they do you can't help but think about when you model it.
For me I would start with the skeleton. Build, draw and study every bone in the hand, then study how all those bones are held together with the tendons and muscles. Once you have a full understanding of those you can then add skin.
Right now you might just want to focus on the hands, but keep in mind that you should be trying to improve your knowledge in general!
There's already many threads about how to effectively study anatomy and other aspects of art, so I suggest you look those up as well. Good luck!
Also, in my opinion, if you can't "draw hands on paper" I don't think you should be attempting modeling. You should be getting better at drawing on paper first. You don't have to be a fantastic traditional artist to be good at 3d but you have to have at least SOME skill otherwise it will NEVER happen, or at least you'll never be any good.
considering my goal was to help you learn how to look at reference and grow to be a more skilled modeler..
yes you are right i seem to have completely failed. i'm sorry you dont like the way i present my help, and god forbid you ever get a job where your art dir comes over and says "nah this is terrible make it better" what are you just going to go cry in a corner or something? in the real world you should not expect to be coddled like some toddler in preschool making finger paintings. if you dont have the metle to read what i said and take the advice in it without getting all pissy and offended, then theres not much hope for you. taking crits is the biggest thing a production artist has to learn to do.
and considering the number one thing that i have noticed with a first glance, also the number one thing others have mentioned is finger length, then obviously among the millions and millions of problems you have with hand modeling, none are bigger than your finger placement and lengths claiming to already have "a symbolic finger length difference" does not help if that symbolic finger length is completely wrong.
i've got bigger problems with drawing zebras than their legs! besudes i already have a symbolic zebra legs drawn!"
WTF?
and on the second part of the quote here,, you really expect some poor guy here to make you a time lapse of modeling a hand? what the hell were those tutorials ppl posted earlier, if not time lapsed hands being modeled
[ame]
and then several websites with step by step..
why should someone here model you a step by step timelapse when you dont even give enough of a shit to look at your hand and arange your fingers properly.
i'm not your mommy i'm not here to hold your hand and make you feel good, i'm here to hopefuly make you realize you are being a lazy twat and expecting someone else to give you something that automagicaly makes it where you can model a hand. thats not going to happen,, not a thing anyone can show you or you can find on any website is more important than just looking at your damn hand. its right there.. when you are typing your whiney "i'm all offended" posts at me, take a second and just kinda glance down.. !!HOLY SHIT!! HANDS whne they are on home row notice how some have to bend up more? those fingers are infact longer than the others .
next thing you know you will be asking people to come to your house and model a hand for you.
While his comments were a bit rough around the edges Rhinokey was actually being very helpful.
The fact that you want him to sugar coat his words makes me think you don't really want honest feedback.
Just read between the lines, theres good practical shit there. :P
I can imagine you sitting down for months watching tutorials then doing a model and it looks exactly the same as post 1.
"WTF, these tutorials are shit!!! I watched every one and I'm no better!!"
If you want to improve do this:
Find some good reference and...
practice.....practice......practice...
if you are still into it after 12 months of that shit, then you're an artist.
You have to understand that what you do is not C&C in any way. It's just insulting other ppl.
FYI the 'symbolic hand length' is wrong because of the way XSI smooths things. They were fine for my eye before I smoothed the mesh. I don't blame the software. I just say that for one of my first hand models, saying 'your finger length is wrong' and offering no advice isn't advice at all.
Timelapse by definition isn't 'step by step', at least not in the way I know it. All timelapses I've seen are no-audio recordings of how someone usually models stuff, sometimes even sped up a few times.
@Malus (darnit it's hard answering several posts XD):
I see no 'good practical shit' there, that's the problem. The dude's just saying 'don't come to the forums if you can't figure it out yourself'.
And now think about it. Do I ask YOU to sugar-coat your words? No. Why? Because your post is more or less normal, written like a normal person would write it.
His posts are as if he had some problems with his self-esteem, trying to make himself feel better by dissing others. Oddly enough, all the other members of this forum seem quite normal to me. Magic, eh?
The fact that I came to this forum is that I look down at my hands and can't seem to realize how they work. I got my advice - draw some hands on paper. Were several posts by Rhinokey about how I'm a whiny kid that can't model hands really necessary?
I half expect another post by Rhinokey now
Tons of people have offered you all kinds of great help, and you've apparently ignored it all or said its not good help or not what you want/need. AND then had a hissy fit about it.
I don't think you're going to find much/any better help here so maybe consider moving onto another forum more suited to your tastes/needs.
yes another post and i will keep on till i get it thru your thick skull or you stop being dumb on my forums!
let me break it down like M.C. Teacher
your first post contained
For the last few years hands (and organic shapes in general but that's for another thread XD) have been my biggest problem
your last post contained.
I just say that for one of my first hand models, saying 'your finger length is wrong' and offering no advice isn't advice at all.
so hands have bothered you for YEARS.. and this is one of the first hand models you have done,, no wonder they bother you.
I have offered a ton of real world advice. even the fact that i have offered good advice has been pointed out by several other people in this thread.
your last post contained
FYI the 'symbolic hand length' is wrong because of the way XSI smooths things. They were fine for my eye before I smoothed the mesh.
i have meshsmoothed more than my fair share of models and never have i had any smoothing algorythm normalize my finger lengths to be wrong. at the most it would blobed them all down, evenly unles you put a lot of extra edges on some and not others. now the big thing in that statement is you said they were fine to your eyes. that is the while point. i'm asking you to learn to use your eyes, this is not an insult, i went thru it, almost everyone here went thru it. humans have a tendancy to use memory rather than reference
here is an exercise,
the top shelf of your fridge without opening it. write down a list of all things that are on the shelf. now go open the door and see how manythings you missed. unless you are workin with a verry empty fridge then you probably missed some stuff.
the same works with your hands you may be able to rember how many fingers you have, and the basic shape. but you have not yet memorized enough of it to be able to just make one..
and despite what you say you have not seriously looked at your hands, or seriously looked at the refs and images and videos posted in this thread. (and i still maintain that nothing posted in this thread is more important than the advice "look at your hand"
here is another exercise get a pen, preferably one you can wash off. draw polygon lines on your hand. like this, LOOK AT THIS I FUCKING DREW LINES ON MY HAND THATS HOW MUCH I WANT TO HELP YOU!! MY HAND LOOKS LIKE A RETARD BECAUSE I CARE SO MUCH.
bet none of those "nice guys" are drawin shit on their hands for you.
have you ever watched any kung fu movies, where the wise master is training the scrub and he's all mean and he's like "climb to top of mountain and fetch me a tigers balls!" i'm not saying i'm the wise master here,, but you get your ass up that mountain and fetch me some tiger balls now!
You apparently ignored all I've said earlier and decided to create your own story out of it o.O
I mean, dude...
I kindly accepted all the (great) help everyone's been giving me here. My only problem was that Rhinokey was coming here trolling about how I'm no good at stuff.
@Rhinokey:
"yes another post and i will keep on till i get it thru your thick skull or you stop being dumb on my forums!"
k, I'll stop now.
The smoothing came out wrong because my original mesh structure wasn't for smoothing.
"and despite what you say you have not seriously looked at your hands, or seriously looked at the refs and images and videos posted in this thread."
I never said 'I seriously looked at the refs and images...' because I haven't yet read through all of them. Well, I have but I need to do it several more times and way more thoroughly than I did.
"LOOK AT THIS I FUCKING DREW LINES ON MY HAND THATS HOW MUCH I WANT TO HELP YOU!! MY HAND LOOKS LIKE A RETARD BECAUSE I CARE SO MUCH."
Well, that's... odd but thanks.
Seriously? The second part of your last post is helpful. It is.
What you did before (apparently) was assume that I read through the all the tutorials thoroughly and (because I asked for more advice) didn't understand any of that stuff and all that I said about how I looked at my hands and didn't see the solution was lies (because I was so lazy that I didn't even try to understand the tutorials).
Perhaps there was some good advice in the posts you wrote before this one but I couldn't get to it through all the insults ('if you have no hands i apologize. your first image has all the fingers flat across, which tells me you have never actualy looked at your hands', 'really i dont how you can post a thread asking about this before you at least look at your hands', 'again i apologize profusely if you are some flipper baby').
Please do notice that everyone else managed to give me advice without all the bad stuff.
Again, thank you for your help, I'm certainly going to make use of it but please (please!) don't assume straight up that somebody's a moron. I certainly am not.
For me the topic is closed (until I get some hand-experience) and the whole arguing was based on a misunderstanding.
...I hate writing long posts.
One of my tips is that you model them in a relaxed pose like in the pictures i posted yesterday, before mine always got stiff and flat like in your first pictures(far from everybody likes this way thou, but maybe your one of them so try it out a couple of times).
yes odd cause i've wasted so much of my time trying to help you but i'm past that, so you just think it was odd i drew on my hand,, its completley went right over your idiotic head the point i was making, the fact that it is a way to study and improve your work.
i did not start of this thread asuming you were a moron like you seem to think, but i have over several wasted atempts at getting thru to you have come to the final conclusion you are a moron. and unless you have a major change in attitude you will never be worth anything as an artist. the fact that you are not even able to read the preceding sentence as anything besides an insult is proof. it is completely not an insult. it is a true statement. much akin to, "if you dont start eating healthy you could gain weight or develop health issues. its not an insult its advice. and good advice at that.
It seems the tigers balls will forever be out of your reach. you are not going to find a magical timelaps or tutorial that is going to fix your number one problem with art, and that is having a thick skull that is jammed completly up your ass.
you get no more comments from me until i get an apology from you for being so rude and ill receptive of my valuable time.
I like my polycounts rough and honest. I would rather people speak their mind and be an asshole than smile and pat people on the head. It takes some getting used but it does help the sensitive artists grow some thicker skin and listen to critique from others and in a round about way help them critique themselves. Very valuable skills when working alone or in a group.
It's time to start applying some of the great info that's been dropped.
but guys, why do you still feed him?
Dandi8, use THIS as avatar, please
Alright, move along. Great job. The insult crits are my favorite. Think of it as a noob tax, Dandi8. The easiest way to get around it is to just realize the ones doing it are dicks and they can't help it. Breaking their quotes in thirds and commenting and explaining yourself won't make you create better hands in 3d. People like Rhinokey can't help it, they're old, bitter, and burnt from working a job they love.