Need a Paintover
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This isn't something I usually do, but it will eternally bug me if I don't. While it never really seems to occur here, every time I post something in an art community, it seems like I get a great many individuals calling out anatomy and suggesting various terms to type into google image search.
But most of the time, I don't really know what in the hell they're talking about, to be completely honest. And if I were also to be honest, I would say that they couldn't paintover and show me what they were talking about. And so I would like to ask the wonderful artists here at polycount, what was my first artistic community in my life, to do a paintover of the image below - correcting any impactful anatomy flaws.
Admittedly, I didn't look at any references of bodybuilders to try and get every muscle or mighty ab lump exactly where it was supposed to be - my main goals were silhouette, basic structure, and showing volume. It was a painting test, done to improve my skills, as always.
And so I ask of anyone who can scribble, please paintover this painting, quickly, thoroughly, anything - and teach me what I can do to drastically improve my anatomy.
Thanks and cheers!
But most of the time, I don't really know what in the hell they're talking about, to be completely honest. And if I were also to be honest, I would say that they couldn't paintover and show me what they were talking about. And so I would like to ask the wonderful artists here at polycount, what was my first artistic community in my life, to do a paintover of the image below - correcting any impactful anatomy flaws.
Admittedly, I didn't look at any references of bodybuilders to try and get every muscle or mighty ab lump exactly where it was supposed to be - my main goals were silhouette, basic structure, and showing volume. It was a painting test, done to improve my skills, as always.
And so I ask of anyone who can scribble, please paintover this painting, quickly, thoroughly, anything - and teach me what I can do to drastically improve my anatomy.
Thanks and cheers!
Replies
pay attention to structure! It doesnt just matter where a muscle is, it matters how it shapes, how it stretches, what bones it's attatched to. Where are his ribs? Where are his hips? Where is his spine? The muscles flow off of the internal structure. Your figure looks elastic and boneless, he's bending and built in a way that doesnt seem to be a humanlike shape. His shoulder, for example, is floating way outside of where it'd attach to the rest of his torso, and the muscles are stretching to reach it.
red line to show implementation -- it doesnt look like you need any help with the rendering, you did a great job with lighting and materials.
edit: failed to communicate clearly in my paintover, the head and bellybutton should both be a bit higher -- i moved the head up and added the neck in the red lines, and there's a small dot on the abdomen showing about where the navel should be. Chin should be close to where the mouth is now, his head is really jammed low into his shoulders in your painting.
SupRore - Thanks for the comments - you're definately right about his head/neck and navel, though concerning the rest of it I don't really see what is impossibly wrong. Your lines for the torso and general silhouette run almost directly over my painting. It is a little bit thinner - but the man is meant to be huge, if you enlarge your lines a little bit, they will fall almost exactly along my shape (with obvious exception to head and neck). With respective muscles, I believe, falling where they would need to be.
I suppose I operate under the the assumption that I don't like sticking to "perfect". I don't want wrong! Definately not. But people are not flawless, they are not all the same. You can have two 32 year old white guys of the exact same weight, say 245lbs, same height, following extremely similar exercise routines, and their own personal body structure will change the way their muscles look or lay over their different proportions. You've got same basic human structure and ground rules, but they'll stress certain muscles more than others, some will be bigger boned, some will have smaller waists, some will have more body fat.
Keep it coming guys! I want to learn as much as I can. What I'm looking for right now isn't necessarily "How do I make this guy the perfect bodybuilder, assuming flawless human form", rather "How can I make this guy look possible, without having any blatant anatomical flaws."
In addition to head and neck, I also had trouble with his collarbone and how it relates to his shoulder. I feel like I lost connection there, but wasn't quite sure how to execute it.
Both the shoulder blades and the collarbones would have to disconnect from their natural place on the body and float in the air to support the placement of the shoulder in your figure, and then off of this original mistake the arm is coming out of an impossible place, and the trapezius and lats are terminating at an impossible place. That's mainly what i changed to make my version slimmer.
I also widened his hips slightly for similar reasons -- think about where his legs are right now. His hipbones would have to be inside of his thighs, he's just too narrow. Try and sketch the skeleton on a new layer over your figure -- ribs and pelvis first, and then the collar/hips/arms relative to those central points, i think you'll see what i mean and why i made the changes i did.
Don't think I'm claiming "I have perfect anatomy skillz", I know I don't - hence the thread, but if I fucked up in this one it's because I misunderstood something. And to avoid misunderstanding in the future, I need to ask, and ask again.
And part of my reason for making this thread is because I can outline a skeleton for his current position, hence confusion, resulting in question.
One thing I think might make it look so wrong now, is lack of distinct dip or transition between his right pectoral and shoulder muscle - resulting in his right pectoral muscle looking unusually bulbous and practically being his shoulder as well. That, though, was mostly just attributed to being obscured in shadow.
Just to confirm, we are talking about his right shoulder, right?
Good deal! Thanks a bunch guys, I'm learning a lot from this. And it is interesting, yes? Seeing the different takes people will have on the anatomy of the same person, same painting?
If anyone else has any other takes or advice, feel free. Whether I get 3 or 20 paintovers from this thread, it's all really helpful.
Though, next time, remind me to do a skinny guy.
jokes aside yeah I wanted to define the shapes so that you can see whats going on, as you can see by hulk version here its easy to add extra flesh and mass on top once youve got the anatomy to play with. also just make his head 25% smaller and he looks huge haha.
Thanks a bunch GED. I appreciate the time you've taken on this. It's really interesting and really helpful.
It seems like, largely, I could define my anatomy much more accurately - disregarding whether or not its technically possible now - by simply adding a few more shadows to seperate existing shapes - very slight shadows, but just enough to hint a little bit more at whats underneath. Seperation of pectoral muscle/shoulder seems pretty key, slight seperation of abs from surrounding ribcage (mostly on the sides), and a tiny bit off the lats around where they come into contact with where his arms are.
It seems like largely that, his proportions seem for the most part just fine, looking at more references, I've seen guys with shoulders twice as wide as their hips. It is the slight variations in definition that I'd missed over.
I'll probably see if I can do a quick paintover and touch up a few things later tonight, and then, move on. Many cheers and thanks to all.
Nice paintover, SupRore
Balance your perspective so your anatomy will looks accurate. Your proportions need to follow the basic rules of perspective for an angle like the one you're using. It frames the muscular composition.
Green A & B are nice torso reference I found online. These serve as what a chest really looks like (even though it's a slightly idealized sculpt - still something that would look good for a painting)
Red A serves as an example of what you've done with your torso. To create it, I've used the left of Green A and right of Green B and combined them at their center line, so that the left is using an extreme perspective and the right is using a different plane, which creates a confusing result. I've also warped sections to quickly match the larger forms in yours to show how strange it is.
Blue A & B serve as examples of what the forms and perspective should, in my opinion look like. Note one is at a 3/4ths view and one is straight on.. The red example is expressing my opinion that half the torso is following one rule of persepctive while the other is following another.
So, more than just anatomy issues, I think that you're having perspective problems.
General observations in the order I saw them:
A - collar bone is too thin
B - Shoulder form lacks definition and is fusing together with the peck muscle; appears as one large unnatural massive muscle.
C - distance too short
D - Abdominal anatomy is wrong, go to reference for aid.
On another note, I don't feel it matters if someone can draw better than you or not. This bothered me in college when artists wouldn't take advice from lesser talented artists. They can still give very valid feedback. I think it's most important for them, of all, to be giving critiques, as that is where I learn the most, a an artist.
Concerning perspective, the painting is not intended to be from a 3/4ths perspective. It is only slightly supposed to be turned from a face-on perspective.
And I do admit, as a result, the red A in the second image had me confused as a result.
Concerning my taking advice from anyone who can't draw "as good" as me, this I have never been concerned with. My problem only is with the mass of individuals who, in the other more massive artistic communities, will scream "anatomy", but are then unable to provide me with any specific information or examples in how to correct my mistakes. There is a HUGE difference in worth between "That's wrong" and "That's wrong, because of ______. The following example should help in rectifying the problem...", as comments. And the simple truth of the matter, as you have noted, is that we must be open minded to improve. My open mindedness told me that in this instance, if I wanted specific assistance, I would need to go somewhere I knew I could get it more...efficiently?
And I am extremely glad that I did. I normally just skulk around and post in my sketchbooks, but decided that another thing about improving as an artist is tearing yourself apart time and time again, so that you can figure all about your own mistakes, and improve upon them. Rinse, repeat.
Thanks a bunch for your help, saved the scuplt for future reference, will start working on at least fleshing out the basics of what I've learned.
expectation #1: i don't know you, i don't know how good you are, so it's hard for me to tell what's intentionally stylized or you have done "incorrectly." if i know someone that consistently produces awesome work, i can expect that any variation to what i'm looking for is completely intentional.
expectation #2: this painting looks like a humanoid. this looks even more specifically like a human. that brings expectations to the brain that tend to get the viewer looking for some familiar things. what we expect is a human that looks like a human. HOWEVER, you can change it in any way you want, and if you execute it well enough, you can get most viewers to follow along with what you're trying to do. that being said, you have exaggerated this character's form enough for me to be satisfied with the proportions. i understand that this is a superhuman drawing, however it looks like you are going for exaggerated but semicorrect muscle placement
that leads to
expectation #3: i am at this point expecting a certain level of consistency. you have, for the most part, the major muscles showing. they are in the right general area, but have very exaggerated scale. like your abdominals scaling way off to the side, while technically "wrong," seems consistent as an artistic decision, and therefore doesn't bother me. however, what DOES bother me a lot is the pectoral stretching over the shoulder. that looks inconsistent, because it's not the simply muscles being stretched or exaggerated, it's a huge "fictional" muscle that is not human or consistent with the rest of your painting.
take that with a grain of salt, because it is just MY opinion of the painting. just always remember that it's "right" if YOU think it is, you just have to consider who you're trying to satisfy.
anatomy is overrated, people go nuts over it. just make sure to be consistent and confident. i like this guy how he is, just fix his shoulder please
Unfortunately, I am not so badass as to be able to pull that off. Probably going to be...well maybe never, but let's not think that way. As a whole, what is "right" to me, is what looks cool as hell, and gets my general idea across. I am always willing to acknowledge that people will view it in their own way. In fact, it is a requisite of mine, that to succeed in the art world - you have to post, and keep working, regardless of whether everyone tells you shit you don't want to hear. Because its your work, and if it does what its supposed to do, then by all means it counts well enough.
In this instance though, what I was looking for was not simply something to look cool, but also for me to learn as much as possible in the meantime. I'm 20, married, and working a tech support job. I've got a future to think about it and days count. Hence, my sparking this thread and wanting input.
And input did I recieve!
And...
Paintover.
Edit: Actually, two paintovers.
A:
B:
Difference between the two being the ab area, not sure which is technically more accurate. B?
I wasn't able to get the lighting quite right, but I am hoping that in this instance, the community at large feels either to be an improvement...?
Cheers as always.
much better
EDIT: actually looking at this a little more, one more thing i might adjust is just the bicep. the top of it tucks in under the armpit, so it's not just flush across with the shoulder. it's not a huge deal, it still looks fine, just might consider adjusting it.
here's a reference (sorry it's random as fuck, i just googled it and his arm position kind of matched yours)