I was talking about this the other day with a friend and I couldn't believe that there wouldn't be some 'protection' for the employee and he could not believe that I expected it to be a standard for every employee. I live in Europe and he lives in the US as you may have guessed.
Sorry for derailing a bit, but can anyone give some info on how this stuff is in Canada, compared to Europe and/or US?
Welcome to why unemployment in the US is at 17.5% using the u-6 method (which is honest). Despite a select few of .01% having billions.
I am in favour of unions personally. The way some employers treat their employees is nothing short of a disgrace.
Might be worth joining some kind of association anyway, in case their are some legal issues need dealing with.
I'm more or less in favor of unions. However, if a 'game artist' union appeared in the U.S. I'm afraid it would only accelerate the outsourcing of art jobs overseas. Artists in the U.S. are just in a bad position in some ways.
If U.S. publishers were not allowed to outsource the work on games that are primarily to be sold in the U.S. the situation would be very different, and a union could really help things. Of course that doesn't seem likely at all, as long as the rich are in control of the country.
That'd be dope to see Obama pull something out of left field saying "The United States will no longer allow Outsourcing for it's companies of the motherland. If you choose to outsource, you will need to leave the country with you're business".
I'm not sure if I would favor a Union. Sounds more like I sign my life away for a branch in the military or my social life for some illiterate gang in some popular city.
I'd like to see that as well, CrazyMatt. The pres has his head up his ass in a lot of areas.
That's a damn shame to see Pandemic close down though, Peppi. They've made some damn fine games and was one of the studios I really wanted to work for.
All of the recent bad news, brings one thought to mind - the corporation. Its all corp. nowadays, "I deserve $6m dollars and bonuses, `cos I'm part of the corp" Its all bullshit, just as bad as the banks. They're all probably in on it I tell thee, its the era of the corporation. Rant over.
EA CEO, "hmmmm we didn't make as many games this year so we didn't make as much money as last year. The stocks will go down if we don't do something! Quick let go of a crap load of the people and kill half the in development projects for next year! That will make up for the lost revenue, and will keep the stocks up!"
EA employee, "wouldn't that mean that you make even less money then next year leading to the need for the same move every year until the company has no employees?"
EA CEO, "Stop whining and think about the stock prices!!!! We loose the stock holders and everyone is out of a job!"
EA employee, "So then your doing this so that you can keep getting your bonus's until the company is about to go under then jump ship?"
It has a lot to do with over-projecting their numbers, not hitting the ridiculous target, then justifying to the stock holders what it is that went wrong (it's why these EA layoffs tend to hit after the quarterly fiscal earnings reports.... most notably before Christmas).
Then some mumbo jumbo about re-aligning and consolidating their___________, shifting to a tighter focus on _______.
Then justify the layoffs, as a necessary cost cutting measure to help them with the re-alignment of their global vision.
For all the haters of Bobby Kotick and Activision, you don't hear about them putting 1500 people through the ringer every year or 2. EA is still the big bad machine as far as I'm concerned.
Sorry Ark, but that article is total 'silver lining' BS. It's nicer 'wording' than simply saying Pandemic is shut down, but that's pretty much exactly what happened.
Man, I really hope there are studios for all the talented artists out there. Hope you all land some jobs!
As a student trying to set a foot inside this industry, while living in Denmark, has me thinking I should get another job for some time and go over to do 3d as a little side hobby of mine... Hope won't pay the bills I'm afraid
These sack anytime laws are ridiculous, so they would fire productive employee's just because someone in upper management takes a disliking to them? Glad I live in the UK although your immigration laws are so much better in the US.
In British Columbia, there are provisions of the Employment Standards Regulation which apply specifically to the high technology sector.
High technology professional
A high technology professional is an employee who:
Analyzes, designs or develops information systems based on computer or other technologies;
Analyzes, designs or develops scientific or technological products, materials, devices or processes;
Carries out scientific research and experimental development; or
Is engaged as a sales or marketing professional in relation to the above services, systems, products or research.
An employee of a high technology company who is engaged in the retail sale of any of these things is not a high technology professional.
Hours of work and overtime
The hours of work provisions of the Act, including those governing meal breaks, split shifts, minimum daily pay and hours free from work each week, as well as the overtime and statutory holiday provisions, do not apply to high technology professionals.
Employees in high technology companies who are not high technology professionals are covered by the hours of work, overtime and statutory holiday provisions of the Act.
Averaging agreements in the high technology sector differ from other averaging agreements as follows:
Employees and employers can agree that the work schedule does not have to be specified for each day covered by the agreement. This agreement must be in writing;
A written request is not required to adjust the work schedule under an averaging agreement;
The work schedule can average more than 40 hours per week; and
Daily overtime is only payable after 12 hours worked.
Been looking at/for jobs today. (I'm not an EA / Pandemic person). Shit looks grim but look on the bright side! The odds are probably better for you americans. You can go aaaaanywheeeeeere
There needs to be laws in place that put people like him in jail.
Anyways, there's a really cool discussion on TheChaosEngine about how to fix EA. if you guys are members, I'd highly recommend perusing that thread. Some really interesting perspectives.
Anyways, there's a really cool discussion on TheChaosEngine about how to fix EA. if you guys are members, I'd highly recommend perusing that thread. Some really interesting perspectives.
840 million! Crazy... I'm left wondering how many games EA could have developed and published with it's already existing studios at that time had they not made that purchase.
Who exactly made that 840 million anyway? They should be opening up some new studios with all that cash. Hopefully they didn't just turn around and throw it away in the market crash last year.
According to SEC documents, Mr. Riccitello pocketed up to 4.9 million on that deal, and no doubt helped his fellow co-founders of Elevation Partners walk away making a nice profit on that deal. EAs shareholders have been left with the bill - and a stock that has fallen 70% since that deal was completed.
Well, purely from a business perspective, how long can it be before the shareholders demand an emergency general meeting to discuss Riccitello's position? The real question is whether his replacement will act as cavalier with people's money and futures.
Well, purely from a business perspective, how long can it be before the shareholders demand an emergency general meeting to discuss Riccitello's position? The real question is whether his replacement will act as cavalier with people's money and futures.
Considering both Riccitello and whoever his replacement will be will both have golden parachutes the size of both of our entire lifetime earnings put together, accountability is doubtful.
Shit looks grim but look on the bright side! The odds are probably better for you americans. You can go aaaaanywheeeeeere
Getting a visa as an american in other countries isn't quite a cake walk. I couldn't get a Canadian one, not without learning French or finishing my Bachelors, or having 4 more years industry experience. In Germany I have my visa through marriage, and BlueByte told me they probably wouldn't have pursued my employment if they had to sponsor my visa here.
I'm more jealous of people with Shengen passports, that's some serious door openage.
Trigger. You got one. It's a EU (+ others) thing. Enjoy your super awesomeness. You can basically travel around wherever, whenever to other countries without really needing your passport (But it's good to have). Contrary to our socialist beliefs you can't do that everywhere.
Speaking of travelling. Going to china was crazy. You had to be invited by a chinese company. You had to get a visa. You had to write your contact info and where you would stay etc etc.
thing is, every time there's a mass layoff, the same threads come up, same people getting shafted etc.
it's never going to change until people fight for that change.
"People need to stand up and fight!" "So I can knife them in the back and steal their job".
Then get laid off 6mo later after the game ships. But hey I get to take credit for their hard work and I can use it in my portfolio!
The thing is, if "people" and by people I guess you mean the people trying to hold onto their jobs? If they ever did that, they would quickly be replaced by people willing to work for a case of Ramen. When you have an excess of workers its easy to abuse them and the workers themselves actually enable it. You need a handful of skilled labor that is in demand and can't be replaced, before you can grab the company by the balls. Not going to happen anytime soon.
"Fuck the group if it gets me ahead".
The same mindset that exists at the top, also permeates the middle, bottom and even people outside looking to get in. So you're asking people without jobs to not take offers and remain jobless?
Bigger companies implode, smaller ones use the rubble to create new ones.
That's what will save the industry right?
People who give a shit about their employees because they've seen what the greed does first hand, those are the leaders we need right?
That will balance out the system won't it?
You can only make so much with rubble before it falls apart.
Yea but with that rubble people can rebuild right?
Building something from pieces that have twice fallen apart is inviting disaster.
It's a bit like expecting McDonalds workers to raise up and open up their own hamburger shop. Ronald makes sure they aren't paid enough for that to ever happen. As long as the money is always flowing up, we'll have a vacume of jobs.
The thing is, if "people" and by people I guess you mean the people trying to hold onto their jobs? If they ever did that, they would quickly be replaced by people willing to work for a case of Ramen. When you have an excess of workers its easy to abuse them and the workers themselves actually enable it. You need a handful of skilled labor that is in demand and can't be replaced, before you can grab the company by the balls. Not going to happen anytime soon.
This is exactly why I think more people need to begin trying to break into independent development. With small studios and small teams, there is usually a level of profit sharing among all the team members. Everyone is invested in the company's success. When a game hits big, everyone benefits from it. (not just upper managament) Individual workers are far more costly to replace.
The expanded scope of game development allows for much more impressive projects. But it comes at the cost of becoming big business. (which is definitely where we are right now) This industry needs a viable indie scene.
what are the benefits of having a schengen passport over a regular european union one?
Like NOtorious said. There are countries that are part of Shengen not in the EU labor agreement. Iceland for example, and I believe Switzerland. It really is like EU+
Making game art isn't moving boxes or sewing blue jeans. There is some 3d asset making or coding that can be replicated anywhere, but the truly skilled have always risen to the top in all economic models in all times. Even during feudalism and the middle ages the masters were able to secure employment for their art.
Will low skill crate makers lose their jobs if unionization comes around, but no other foreign/domestic protection laws? Maybe. Will the really good artists? Not hardly.
I remember a guy from a past employer quoting the manager once:
Manager, "If you don't do this (abusive thing), there is a line of people outside the door willing to do it for half your wage".
Artist, "I've seen their portfolios, I'm not worried".
You think Hollywood wouldn't love to cram their movies full of cheaper labor as apposed to highly paid SAG actors? If they tried, they couldn't use any of the name brand actors. The ideas of unions have problems, but successful ones even the leverage between management and workers, not lessen. If you can't get a single super good artist on your project to make main characters and key set pieces because you tried to outsource everything else to the east, your going to have a really really crappy looking game. If 3d art unions worked like the screen actors guild, things like this EA story would be a lot fewer and more infrequent, and maybe we wouldn't be reading about so many upper management people who's former jobs were in unrelated fields getting 10 million dollar bonuses.
These downsizings are a bit depressing, and yes good employees get the shaft at times, but i'm inclined to agree with poopinmymouth. I really think job security is at a low and about to get better.
This industry is going through growing pains. Gaming companies are still figuring out what works and what's profitable. Mistakes will be made but it's bound to get better. If you look at most consistently profitable companies they treat their employees very well without random mass firings.
With the recent release of the UDK among other things, change seems to be in the air and there are thousands of minds around the globe figuring out how to make smaller teams profitable. It's not all bad.
This is game art, one of the coolest jobs on the planet. Do you really think it'd be sunshine and rainbows the whole way through? There's going to be lots of competition and trials along the way to stay or break into this industry, but it's worth it. You frickin' make games for a living.
"People need to stand up and fight!" "So I can knife them in the back and steal their job".
Then get laid off 6mo later after the game ships. But hey I get to take credit for their hard work and I can use it in my portfolio!
The thing is, if "people" and by people I guess you mean the people trying to hold onto their jobs? If they ever did that, they would quickly be replaced by people willing to work for a case of Ramen. When you have an excess of workers its easy to abuse them and the workers themselves actually enable it. You need a handful of skilled labor that is in demand and can't be replaced, before you can grab the company by the balls. Not going to happen anytime soon.
"Fuck the group if it gets me ahead".
The same mindset that exists at the top, also permeates the middle, bottom and even people outside looking to get in. So you're asking people without jobs to not take offers and remain jobless?
Bigger companies implode, smaller ones use the rubble to create new ones.
That's what will save the industry right?
People who give a shit about their employees because they've seen what the greed does first hand, those are the leaders we need right?
That will balance out the system won't it?
You can only make so much with rubble before it falls apart.
Yea but with that rubble people can rebuild right?
Building something from pieces that have twice fallen apart is inviting disaster.
It's a bit like expecting McDonalds workers to raise up and open up their own hamburger shop. Ronald makes sure they aren't paid enough for that to ever happen. As long as the money is always flowing up, we'll have a vacume of jobs.
then again... mythic always said they were in the latter catagory. that they cared about their employees, and that they weren't part of the corporate wheel.
A bit off topic, but a lot of the discussion on TCE about "company culture". Kind of an interesting coincidence this article was published by Gamasutra today:
Really makes you kind of evaluate yourself as an artist, and where you think you might be the best fit for yourself in a professional level.
I think it's pretty obvious where EA falls, and the culture they LOVE to force onto their studios, and retrospectively dissecting the post mortem of studios like Pandemic.
Mythic had a commitment culture, I don't know if any other style was forced on them or not. My only regret is that I never got to organize the office Pinewood Derby.
Mythic had a commitment culture, I don't know if any other style was forced on them or not. My only regret is that I never got to organize the office Pinewood Derby.
did you recently sabotage the LHC as an act of vengeance?
what are the benefits of having a schengen passport over a regular european union one?
there's no schengen passports. schengen treaty just means that countries which participate have no passport and border controls when you travel between them.
When tou travel between schengen and non-schengen countries there are passport controls, regardless where you are from.
schengen also has nothing to do where you can or cannot work. With the exception of a few eastern european countries, you as EU citizen can work anywhere in the EU. With some minor restrictions (nothing compared to trying to get to the US,Canada,Australie, etc) you can also easily work in associated countries, such as Switzerland, Norway or Iceland.
However if you're not European, you can only work and live in the country where your visa is valid. However you can still travel freely within the union. Schengen rules apply for you just the same as for EU citizens, because they're just about travel only and not residence/work.
Replies
Welcome to why unemployment in the US is at 17.5% using the u-6 method (which is honest). Despite a select few of .01% having billions.
Might be worth joining some kind of association anyway, in case their are some legal issues need dealing with.
http://kotaku.com/5406449/rumor-rip-pandemic-studios-1998+2009
Crap times indeed. Good luck everyone
If U.S. publishers were not allowed to outsource the work on games that are primarily to be sold in the U.S. the situation would be very different, and a union could really help things. Of course that doesn't seem likely at all, as long as the rich are in control of the country.
I'm not sure if I would favor a Union. Sounds more like I sign my life away for a branch in the military or my social life for some illiterate gang in some popular city.
That's a damn shame to see Pandemic close down though, Peppi. They've made some damn fine games and was one of the studios I really wanted to work for.
Anybody need a UI artist?
That sucks big time!
Talented UI artists are tough to find and a number of companies always seem to have a spot open for them.
Here's a job posting that I came across by Nihilistic Software for a UI Artist: http://jobs.gamasutra.com/jobseekerx/viewjobrss.asp?cjid=20196&accountno=287
I wish you all the best and I hope that you and your former co-workers land on their feet.
All of the recent bad news, brings one thought to mind - the corporation. Its all corp. nowadays, "I deserve $6m dollars and bonuses, `cos I'm part of the corp" Its all bullshit, just as bad as the banks. They're all probably in on it I tell thee, its the era of the corporation. Rant over.
At the same time though, many companies have been formed in the wake of those that shut down.
EA employee, "wouldn't that mean that you make even less money then next year leading to the need for the same move every year until the company has no employees?"
EA CEO, "Stop whining and think about the stock prices!!!! We loose the stock holders and everyone is out of a job!"
EA employee, "So then your doing this so that you can keep getting your bonus's until the company is about to go under then jump ship?"
EA CEO, "Your fired!"
Close.
It has a lot to do with over-projecting their numbers, not hitting the ridiculous target, then justifying to the stock holders what it is that went wrong (it's why these EA layoffs tend to hit after the quarterly fiscal earnings reports.... most notably before Christmas).
Then some mumbo jumbo about re-aligning and consolidating their___________, shifting to a tighter focus on _______.
Then justify the layoffs, as a necessary cost cutting measure to help them with the re-alignment of their global vision.
For all the haters of Bobby Kotick and Activision, you don't hear about them putting 1500 people through the ringer every year or 2. EA is still the big bad machine as far as I'm concerned.
Sorry Ark, but that article is total 'silver lining' BS. It's nicer 'wording' than simply saying Pandemic is shut down, but that's pretty much exactly what happened.
As a student trying to set a foot inside this industry, while living in Denmark, has me thinking I should get another job for some time and go over to do 3d as a little side hobby of mine... Hope won't pay the bills I'm afraid
Check this out:
http://www.labour.gov.bc.ca/esb/facshts/high_tech.htm
In British Columbia, there are provisions of the Employment Standards Regulation which apply specifically to the high technology sector.
High technology professional
A high technology professional is an employee who:
- Analyzes, designs or develops information systems based on computer or other technologies;
- Analyzes, designs or develops scientific or technological products, materials, devices or processes;
- Carries out scientific research and experimental development; or
- Is engaged as a sales or marketing professional in relation to the above services, systems, products or research.
An employee of a high technology company who is engaged in the retail sale of any of these things is not a high technology professional.Hours of work and overtime
The hours of work provisions of the Act, including those governing meal breaks, split shifts, minimum daily pay and hours free from work each week, as well as the overtime and statutory holiday provisions, do not apply to high technology professionals.
Employees in high technology companies who are not high technology professionals are covered by the hours of work, overtime and statutory holiday provisions of the Act.
Averaging agreements in the high technology sector differ from other averaging agreements as follows:
- Employees and employers can agree that the work schedule does not have to be specified for each day covered by the agreement. This agreement must be in writing;
- A written request is not required to adjust the work schedule under an averaging agreement;
- The work schedule can average more than 40 hours per week; and
- Daily overtime is only payable after 12 hours worked.
Pretty sweet eh!...If you consider 15 people out of 200+ not that bad.
http://www.marketrap.com/article/view_article/91171/outrageous-electronic-arts-inc-ceo-riccitello-buys-his-own-company-and-closes-it-down-two-years-later
Crazy stuff going on at EA. There should be some seriously pissed off investors.
There needs to be laws in place that put people like him in jail.
Anyways, there's a really cool discussion on TheChaosEngine about how to fix EA. if you guys are members, I'd highly recommend perusing that thread. Some really interesting perspectives.
They still haven't validated my account
Who exactly made that 840 million anyway? They should be opening up some new studios with all that cash. Hopefully they didn't just turn around and throw it away in the market crash last year.
Well, purely from a business perspective, how long can it be before the shareholders demand an emergency general meeting to discuss Riccitello's position? The real question is whether his replacement will act as cavalier with people's money and futures.
it's never going to change until people fight for that change.
Considering both Riccitello and whoever his replacement will be will both have golden parachutes the size of both of our entire lifetime earnings put together, accountability is doubtful.
Getting a visa as an american in other countries isn't quite a cake walk. I couldn't get a Canadian one, not without learning French or finishing my Bachelors, or having 4 more years industry experience. In Germany I have my visa through marriage, and BlueByte told me they probably wouldn't have pursued my employment if they had to sponsor my visa here.
I'm more jealous of people with Shengen passports, that's some serious door openage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement
and this is for you specifically.
http://www.eu-upplysningen.se/Amnesomraden/Schengen/Fri-rorlighet-inom-Schengen/
Speaking of travelling. Going to china was crazy. You had to be invited by a chinese company. You had to get a visa. You had to write your contact info and where you would stay etc etc.
"So I can knife them in the back and steal their job".
Then get laid off 6mo later after the game ships. But hey I get to take credit for their hard work and I can use it in my portfolio!
The thing is, if "people" and by people I guess you mean the people trying to hold onto their jobs? If they ever did that, they would quickly be replaced by people willing to work for a case of Ramen. When you have an excess of workers its easy to abuse them and the workers themselves actually enable it. You need a handful of skilled labor that is in demand and can't be replaced, before you can grab the company by the balls. Not going to happen anytime soon.
"Fuck the group if it gets me ahead".
The same mindset that exists at the top, also permeates the middle, bottom and even people outside looking to get in. So you're asking people without jobs to not take offers and remain jobless?
Bigger companies implode, smaller ones use the rubble to create new ones.
That's what will save the industry right?
People who give a shit about their employees because they've seen what the greed does first hand, those are the leaders we need right?
That will balance out the system won't it?
You can only make so much with rubble before it falls apart.
Yea but with that rubble people can rebuild right?
Building something from pieces that have twice fallen apart is inviting disaster.
It's a bit like expecting McDonalds workers to raise up and open up their own hamburger shop. Ronald makes sure they aren't paid enough for that to ever happen. As long as the money is always flowing up, we'll have a vacume of jobs.
QFT.
This is exactly why I think more people need to begin trying to break into independent development. With small studios and small teams, there is usually a level of profit sharing among all the team members. Everyone is invested in the company's success. When a game hits big, everyone benefits from it. (not just upper managament) Individual workers are far more costly to replace.
The expanded scope of game development allows for much more impressive projects. But it comes at the cost of becoming big business. (which is definitely where we are right now) This industry needs a viable indie scene.
Like NOtorious said. There are countries that are part of Shengen not in the EU labor agreement. Iceland for example, and I believe Switzerland. It really is like EU+
Will low skill crate makers lose their jobs if unionization comes around, but no other foreign/domestic protection laws? Maybe. Will the really good artists? Not hardly.
I remember a guy from a past employer quoting the manager once:
Manager, "If you don't do this (abusive thing), there is a line of people outside the door willing to do it for half your wage".
Artist, "I've seen their portfolios, I'm not worried".
You think Hollywood wouldn't love to cram their movies full of cheaper labor as apposed to highly paid SAG actors? If they tried, they couldn't use any of the name brand actors. The ideas of unions have problems, but successful ones even the leverage between management and workers, not lessen. If you can't get a single super good artist on your project to make main characters and key set pieces because you tried to outsource everything else to the east, your going to have a really really crappy looking game. If 3d art unions worked like the screen actors guild, things like this EA story would be a lot fewer and more infrequent, and maybe we wouldn't be reading about so many upper management people who's former jobs were in unrelated fields getting 10 million dollar bonuses.
This industry is going through growing pains. Gaming companies are still figuring out what works and what's profitable. Mistakes will be made but it's bound to get better. If you look at most consistently profitable companies they treat their employees very well without random mass firings.
With the recent release of the UDK among other things, change seems to be in the air and there are thousands of minds around the globe figuring out how to make smaller teams profitable. It's not all bad.
This is game art, one of the coolest jobs on the planet. Do you really think it'd be sunshine and rainbows the whole way through? There's going to be lots of competition and trials along the way to stay or break into this industry, but it's worth it. You frickin' make games for a living.
then again... mythic always said they were in the latter catagory. that they cared about their employees, and that they weren't part of the corporate wheel.
and then they sold out to EA.
WEEEEEEEE
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=26108
Really makes you kind of evaluate yourself as an artist, and where you think you might be the best fit for yourself in a professional level.
I think it's pretty obvious where EA falls, and the culture they LOVE to force onto their studios, and retrospectively dissecting the post mortem of studios like Pandemic.
did you recently sabotage the LHC as an act of vengeance?
i found this one, my friend said they are looking for some.
http://www.unitedfrontgames.com/
there's no schengen passports. schengen treaty just means that countries which participate have no passport and border controls when you travel between them.
When tou travel between schengen and non-schengen countries there are passport controls, regardless where you are from.
schengen also has nothing to do where you can or cannot work. With the exception of a few eastern european countries, you as EU citizen can work anywhere in the EU. With some minor restrictions (nothing compared to trying to get to the US,Canada,Australie, etc) you can also easily work in associated countries, such as Switzerland, Norway or Iceland.
However if you're not European, you can only work and live in the country where your visa is valid. However you can still travel freely within the union. Schengen rules apply for you just the same as for EU citizens, because they're just about travel only and not residence/work.
SO MUCH PORK!