Call of Duty MW2
polycounter lvl 10
Surprised someone hasn't brought this up yet.
Warning Spoilers
http://news.spong.com/article/19606/Activision-Confirms-Civilian-Slaughter-Scene-in-Modern-Warfare-2
Anyone got opinions on this? Reading kotaku comments has fried my brain...
Now I'm not the biggest fan of CoD4 and didn't find it that enjoyable but I have absolutely no problems with this level. I don't understand what all the cries of anger are about.
The gaming community constantly begs for games to be taken seriously and defend GTA to their last breath. Then when we get something that seems to attempt to push a more mature theme everyone gets upset.
Its ok when its done in Postal, its ok when its done in Hitman, Its ok when its done in GTA, but now its taking itself seriously..... heaven forbid it attempt to evoke an emotion out of us.
And what I don't understand is how people can look at this and not see what they are attempting to do, then get all upset because it made them sick. Is that not the point of this level? To provoke an emotion from the player that will affect their views for the rest of the game?
Anyways this is all speculation on my part as I haven't' played the game so I have no definitive answer on what they are trying to achieve. Now considering I found CoD4 pretty run of the mill and totally "Action movie" oriented more than "thought provoking" like someone people did I'll have to wait and see.
Warning Spoilers
http://news.spong.com/article/19606/Activision-Confirms-Civilian-Slaughter-Scene-in-Modern-Warfare-2
Anyone got opinions on this? Reading kotaku comments has fried my brain...
Now I'm not the biggest fan of CoD4 and didn't find it that enjoyable but I have absolutely no problems with this level. I don't understand what all the cries of anger are about.
The gaming community constantly begs for games to be taken seriously and defend GTA to their last breath. Then when we get something that seems to attempt to push a more mature theme everyone gets upset.
Its ok when its done in Postal, its ok when its done in Hitman, Its ok when its done in GTA, but now its taking itself seriously..... heaven forbid it attempt to evoke an emotion out of us.
And what I don't understand is how people can look at this and not see what they are attempting to do, then get all upset because it made them sick. Is that not the point of this level? To provoke an emotion from the player that will affect their views for the rest of the game?
Anyways this is all speculation on my part as I haven't' played the game so I have no definitive answer on what they are trying to achieve. Now considering I found CoD4 pretty run of the mill and totally "Action movie" oriented more than "thought provoking" like someone people did I'll have to wait and see.
Replies
What's your opinion on action movies?
Now maybe you also find movies with similar scenes of blatant violence offending idk. However, I don't understand how no one had issues with previous CoD imagery yet now that its flipped it is suddenly "taboo".
And yes, I also feel a few action movies are also in "bad taste" during certain scenes, oh noes...
edit: I'll add that I really don't care what perspective the killing of innocents is from, I just don't care for it. Fighting against actual enemies with bad intentions is what I prefer.
http://www.vg247.com/2009/10/28/confirmed-leaked-mw2-civilians-vid-as-real-skippable-through-checkpoints/
I loooveeeee they show how real and ridiculous the war is,
thanks MW2 for being step ahead from hollywood
Honestly, same with me. I don't doubt for one second that Infinity Ward would do something tasteless just to get some press. Honestly, from following these guys and playing all their games, I'm glad its them that is taking this step and blurring the lines a bit more, good on them, and I'm happy they had the balls to do it.
Anyways...if you can't handle what's in a "M" rated game...then you just shouldn't be playing them.
I'm assuming those who have issue with it won't be purchasing and that is totally acceptable.
This is how I initially felt but I'm trying to hold off due to my views of CoD4. I know some people thought CoD was amazing and had some things to say, but as I said before I felt it was more just an action movie.
So I'm a little hesitant to declare this as part of pushing the boundaries until I know how it fits with the rest of the game. Although I would like to see a game that attempted that with mature themes instead of the normal its mature cause its got "Gore and boobs" scenario.
Also I find it interesting that making light of utter violence and destruction is so widely accepted yet taking that and adding meaning / emotion is not. As long as were smiling doing it its ok. And I'm not referring to CoD as I stated idk how this will play out but just in general entertainment whether its books, film or games.
Also I think they did this to get people talking about the game again just before launch, but lets be serious nothing is going to stop this game from coming out in two weeks.
I think the issue with six days in Falluja is that people could consider it exploitive of the the very real death and destruction that happened there. Call of duty is fiction. not the same.
It's already gotten people in this thread feeling uncomfortable, as well as the people in the linked article in uproar. If it makes you feel uncomfortable *playing it*, I'd say that was a positive thing and part of the intended experience; The reaction of a reasonable amount of people to be kneejerk disgust without actually playing through that scene yourself is premature, leaning towards ignorance, at best.
Movies, books, tv have all explored the darker sides of humanity, including
rape (Irr
My gut reaction to the video was "Wow, that's pretty fucked up." I've never had that strong a reaction to a game when playing an evil character, so to me it was a nice reminder that games can actually provoke a visceral reaction that doesn't rely entirely on graphic realism. Most games that feature this kind of violence fly under the radar because of how absurd they are, so context is everything here.
So yeah, the game industry will definitely be under fire again.
same for me, probably because you don't get that squishy feeling when something cuts into flesh in games yet.
If you're not 18, you shouldn't be playing this game.
Fiction vs recent reality.
First person experience of 9/11? Poor taste. That would be the same in movie form too (can you imagine the reaction to a big-budget movie about that? staring shia labeuff or someone equally awful?).
First person experience of WWI? Acceptable.
Iraq war? Bad taste.
Fiction that's well-grounded? Acceptable (see: every tom clancy book/movie adaptation).
JDinges: No need for the 'oh noes'. I just wondered what your position was on a similar medium.
Innocents being killed by the enemy as graphicaly as you like = awesome
Just a little point though:
Life = bad taste most of the time.
I like playing the good guy and killing kittens isn't my thing. I like thought provoking, I love when a game draws you in to the atmosphere and alters your perspective but I don't like being the heartless SOB that kills the kid on the street. I am all for mature content in games, hell, most gamers I know are over 18 at least. Time to give us old fuckers something we can wow at and enjoy as adults. I haven't played this but I might give it a look. Sounds like it could be a nice break from the norm.
hell yeah.
I look forward to playing it...in Australia...where by some amazing accident, it passed classification as an MA15+ title, unlike L4D2 which was censored. Apparently in my country, droves of innocent civilians have less rights than a garden variety zombie. Yet more proof that our lack of an R18+ rating for video games hurts both sides of the argument, not that the conservative douchbags blocking the change would ever make that connection...
uproar? and they havent even played the game through yet.. so they react to a segment completely disproportionately and completely out of context.. gogo internet .. fookin eejits..
As for MW2 cant frickin wait and Im going to upgrade my rig just to play it
Where do you draw the line? "He´s already dead!" Yeah but its still a brain flying out the back of his skull. Looks the same as a living human in my mind. So yeah, I think they judge mostly on the gore/visuals not the political/morale behind it all. Should they?
Also in L4D2 - YOU CAN CHOP OF LIMBS AND CUT HUGE OPEN WOUNDS IN THEM WITH A MACHETE. Guts and blood everywhere... (I love this though, I use the machete all the time and do my jason-impersonation). Very visual, Very gory. Tremendously fun.
I doubt you can do that in MW2 to the civilians. Might be wrong though. Besides, Mw2 isnt the first game you can kill civilians.
How about grand theft auto?
How about prototype?
How about the numerous rpgs out there?
Fuck, HOW ABOUT THE SIMS!? That´s a freaking torture game if anything
Bring on the civilians I say. I will gladly shoot them down. After all. It´s only a game.
and my first thought was, oh fuck hope nothing like this can happen in real life...
but damn ill play it and ill giggle like a girl while doing it, everyones got a wicked side:)
As games become more and more realistic, this kind of stuff becomes more and more disturbing. I will buy this game, and I will more than likely play this part just out of morbid curiosity, but right now I feel like it could have been handled in a cut scene and would have gotten the point across just the same.
I always chose Horde over Alliance. In counterstrike I always played Terrorist. When I was a kid, I was always the robber, never the cop.
Does this mean I have violent tendencies and I'm a cruel person?
I wouldn't call this absurd or impossible. GTA was a cartoon compared to this.
I think "games" and "play" are becoming a misnomer with titles like this coming out, and soon aren't going to cut it.
True. I'm not saying the event is absurd or impossible, I'm saying that it's absurd and impossible that I (and hopefully anyone on this board) would ever be a part of a russian terrorist group slaughtering civilians in an airport.
Also just in general I'm all for pushing for new ways of storytelling as I'm getting bored with the 30 mins of gameplay - 5 min cutscene. Its like going to an action movie and between explosions they pause and put text on the screen to fill you in on the story. With that said i still think cut scenes can be useful and effective I just feel they are used too much.
that looks genuinely horrible
when i play the game, i'm choosing the "skip" option
i just want some dual wielding action. that's all i ask. can't be a terrorist without that shit. you just can't. and l33t shades.
Lets face it games were always heading this way since the first FPS and we will see much worse in the future. A lot of the audience these days are well to put it loosely emotionally dead to things on screens, we yawn these days if you watch an action movie and don't see someone walking around looking for their blown off arm... People would have been horrified watching shit like that 20 years ago.
Most of you must remember Carmagedon... I was pritty young when I played that and I never felt like that made me want to get in a car and run as many people down as I could.
Speak for yourself, comrade.
So you're saying if it was handled as a cutscene so it didnt disturb you so much it'd get across the point (being disturbing) just the same?
Look, you're all grown ups, this is absolutely silly. You're okay with cod4 representing killing a bunch of innocent people with GUNS and political justification on your side, but once it's having you kill innocent people WITHOUT guns and being vilified for it this repulses you?
The playable sequence gets something very strong across. Aside from the planning concerns and consequences, someone like this firing a gun into a crowd of innocent people at an airport would be easy. Almost fun, if the man was appropriately sadistic. That's scary, that's disturbing, that sets the stage for a dramatic action thriller perfectly.
Aren't most of you the same guys who complain that shooters are juvenile fantasies with no real maturity or emotional impact? Infinity ward is making a strong, powerful statement with this sequence. Obviously, seeing sa how just the video makes you not want to play it, it had as much or more of an emotional impact on all of you as it did me. This is, if anything, a ridiculously effective, unexpected leap forward in the 'games as art' pursuit.
Since this is a game deveoopment related forum, maybe a more design oriented/productive question:
Does anyone recall any other games that made them feel uncomfortable about killing in a shooter? Deus Ex kinda did to me, but that's all that comes to mind.
Now to go all 'Alex Jones' on people...lol...I wonder if the CIA had ever considered doing something like this against Americans. False flag terror op document locked away in the basement of the CIA building. I tend to think the CIA has a scenario thought up from just about every angle possible to accomplish any goal desired...whether it is in Americans best interest or not.
The purpose?...I'm always viewing things from the perspective of "what would it take to scare Americans enough into going along with stripping them of their 2nd amendment right to bare arms?" Something like this happening in real-life would probably do it.
Look how much that 9/11 truth crap can get into your head...lol
I still think you're an insane concpsiracy theorist but;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
yes, they've done that.
huh? what rock have you been living under? airport, high school, university, immigration office... what's the difference? and 3 out of 4 of those HAVE happened... the 2nd amendment has been beaten to death and is still around... so i don't think Americans will cough it up just because another slaughter house happened in an airport.... i may be totally missing your point here though....
Yep. Operation Northwoods is very interesting stuff to read about.
Yes I'll admit. I'm probably more on the fringe then most...lol Never trust anyone or anything and always be skeptical is my motto. You learn to get used to it.
You probably right. But watch the video if you can find it. It's like Columbine or Virginia Tech x 100. Intense. We have yet to see something like that happen.
I am saying I would get the point that this russian villain is an awful guy without having to play as one of his comrades killing innocent women and children. In the video it shows someone pulling their lifeless friend or family member across the airport floor with a blood trail only to have the player come and unload a clip into both bodies. Also, a crippled from gunfire person limping away from the action that you can go shoot in the back of the head. All while amazingly good sounding screams and chaos goes on around you.
No one is shooting back at you, they are all running. Gross. Just my opinion.
However, when I hear about this idea being implemented in such mainstream title as COD, I can't help but think "meh".
For a little while, I've been annoyed with the way Infinity Ward tries to push their game (that relates to MW1 as well) as something that has a special meaning attached to it. The storyline in the previous Modern Warfare, was pretty forgettable in my opinion. It was a mixed bag of anti-war imaginary and typical overblown Hollywoodish pathos.
I found all, supposedly dramatic events to be rather laughable, due to their cheesy execution. But scrap that, even if we leave all the content alone, it's just impossible to treat this idea seriously in a game which gameplay relies solely on killing things. This divide between the storyline and gameplay is rather comedic. After all, how can I treat it seriously when gameplay makes killing people fairly entertaining and enjoyable?
The reason why I will always say ICO is one of the most brilliant games ever made, is because it got rid of that divide. The storyline and gameplay are not following different paths. They supplement each other and work towards the same goal creating an experience. While it did achieve it thanks to its relative simplicity and this effect will be harder to reproduce in a more complex game, it's something that all developers bothering with the storyline should be striving for.
Furthermore, this whole idea seems more like a marketing ploy to create more buzz around the game and give it a taste of controversy. Making something that could potentially improve the storyline and make a huge impact on the player optional is a terrible move.
It ruins the purpose of storytelling. If you can skip such a crucial thing, then how can we even talk about creating a consistent storyline? Character development? Toying with the feelings of your audience? What about getting your point across or giving players similar experience? You can't get these things without offending at least some people. Giving them an option to turn their heads away, whenever something bad happens, removes any artistic impact that the game could have.
Of course, from the publisher's point of view it's a fine decision, maximizes the profits and all. But then I will have to call it kitsch and I would be really saddened by the fact games industry has already reached this point.
To summarize it all. I remain sceptical when it comes to implementing such features in mainstream titles. Not that I hate popular things, as they can be entertaining for what they are. However, if they pretend to be something that they are not, then as a potential customer I cannot help myself but feel offended.
I HOPE I will be proved wrong, because I was longing to see this kind of stuff in games. Interactive media gives us too many artistic opportunities to let them go to waste.