[discussion] The L4D2 Boycott
mod
It just 'ended' like this:
http://www.joystiq.com/2009/10/14/left-4-dead-2-boycott-abandoned-4-demise/
and I'm sitting here wondering.. that's great and all, but how the fuck does something like this happen? Would ANY other company have done something like this? This isn't about praising valve, as awesome as they are - it's about customer expectations..
Why is it 'okay' for people to bitch about wanting more content in a game, like it's a given? so many people joined the boycott and went crazy against L4D, like it owed them something. Did valve promise them 2x the content? I know I got my moneys worth with the campaigns that were included.
I'm just trying to imagine this happening to other games.
Why don't people who play madden bitch at EA for having a new copy with indistinguishable differences every year? why don't people go nutshit on EA and Activision for not providing the RB/GH DLC for free for the Guitar Hero/Rock Band games? What about boycotting Modern Warfare 2 because it's coming out - we want more stages on the first one! it's not like the game was that long.
etc. etc. you catch my drift.
Why did something like the L4D2 boycott happen, and why is it so widely accepted? All the new maps Valve is doing take time and money, just like any other kind of game content, and yet people expect them to release it for free? to 'keep supporting' the game, when no other companies do this (ok, maybe one or two, but not to this level)?
I realize the DLC cost money on consoles but anyone who's playing L4D on consoles deserves that anyway
. it's the point of people expecting it like valve owes them.
just throwing this out there if anyone wants to contribute, because this bothers me.
http://www.joystiq.com/2009/10/14/left-4-dead-2-boycott-abandoned-4-demise/
and I'm sitting here wondering.. that's great and all, but how the fuck does something like this happen? Would ANY other company have done something like this? This isn't about praising valve, as awesome as they are - it's about customer expectations..
Why is it 'okay' for people to bitch about wanting more content in a game, like it's a given? so many people joined the boycott and went crazy against L4D, like it owed them something. Did valve promise them 2x the content? I know I got my moneys worth with the campaigns that were included.
I'm just trying to imagine this happening to other games.
Why don't people who play madden bitch at EA for having a new copy with indistinguishable differences every year? why don't people go nutshit on EA and Activision for not providing the RB/GH DLC for free for the Guitar Hero/Rock Band games? What about boycotting Modern Warfare 2 because it's coming out - we want more stages on the first one! it's not like the game was that long.
etc. etc. you catch my drift.
Why did something like the L4D2 boycott happen, and why is it so widely accepted? All the new maps Valve is doing take time and money, just like any other kind of game content, and yet people expect them to release it for free? to 'keep supporting' the game, when no other companies do this (ok, maybe one or two, but not to this level)?
I realize the DLC cost money on consoles but anyone who's playing L4D on consoles deserves that anyway
. it's the point of people expecting it like valve owes them.just throwing this out there if anyone wants to contribute, because this bothers me.
Replies
actually
http://www.petitiononline.com/gr4onPC/petition.html
yes. Almost every game franchise has 'fans' who spout this kind of bullshit, that any sequel is BAD because it's not what they wouldve made.
Its valves self produced bogus.
Every time i play tf2 i get some hat or weapon.
L4d simply wasnt that much of a long term game and i dont i think its the contents
fault its the games.
Slaughering zomby hordes in a team of 4 or playing 4vs4 is only fun for some time
regardless the maps.
Playing 32 ppl servers in tf2 or css or dod is simply more fun as u get to know
players and servers ,chat along ,flame along etc...
As for 360 games its 360´s fault.
Seriously, i would never pay just to play online.
Thats what my internet connection and the games costs are there for.
now after seeing more stuff it all comes together nicely
Love or hate your audience, they pay your bills. And gamers are by and large are an anonymous online mass to game developers so you can't really expect more. Whining and crying is the norm, the less you hear the better you're doing. If there's a lot of whining going on, i think it's safe to say you could have done something better. Maybe not game developement itself, but maybe they shouldn't have released sequel information prematurely.
In the end who f*cking cares, they're gamers they'll deal with it and like it like they always have
but you guys are saying it's because valve promised there would be more? or did people just expect that? personally I think L4D has plenty of content since it was designed to be replayed multiple times, and it works fine that way, but I can see it both ways..
I would like two Ferrari's.
But you only bought one?
I know but I'm starting to get bored with this one. See its red and I want a black one.
I think I should warn you the cops are on their way...
Personally I think the whiners should shut the hell up a long time ago and gone off to make more L4D content...
Because they bought into those games already knowing that was the business model. Because it reflects a business model that is already accepted for other types of music distribution. Because... a bunch of people did complain, as people do for all DLC. Again, what rock have you been hiding under?
If I thought it was going to be the same game with a few new guns, some new enemies, and some new maps then I wouldn't be excited for it either. That's called an "expansion" and it's what L4D2 is: Same game with some tweaks and extras. Nothing is fundamentally changing, as opposed to MW2 which is going to be a completely different story/campaign/cinematic experience.
I've already bought L4D2, because I happened to have three friends who wanted to buy into the totally reasonably expansion-priced 4 pack, but without that I was planning to give it a pass.
I am quite aware of the fact that people have complained about it in the past, I was using it as an example. people bitch, but it still sells shitloads every year, thus the bitching didn't really do much. valve however, is listening to its fans, which I think is great - but I don't think it would have hurt L4D2 sales if they didn't continue to support it.. besides, L4D supports custom content which madden does not.
yeah, I mean, theres a '2' at the end of both games, but one counts as an expansion and the other isn't? interesting. I realize MW2 is going to have a lot of differences, but essentially in the same ways L4D2 is. MW2 has what.. new locations, characters, enemies, and guns? wow, afaik that's exactly what L4D2 has as well, but apparently that's an expansion and they screwed us on the first game by making a sequel to a game we enjoy already! BOYCOTT!
'Craziness.'
I just thought this was a very interesting situation overall and it's cool to hear what others have to say.
For example the L4D2 shotgun appears to be the exact same asset as from L4D. Lots of games wouldn't have got away with this in the past, or at least if something was released that way it'd be more likely to be an expansion.
Not saying this is a bad thing, like I say it's good for developers and especially publishers - more mileage for your money, and surely it's good for the gamer too; not a 100% totally new game, but more like extra content (maps, characters, weapons, game modes) for your favourite game. More than you'd have historically got from most expansions.
They let pretty much everyone at the conference come to their company party and get absolutely shit faced on their dollar, it was great. Big thanks to the valve dudes, kinda victims of their own success. A lot of gamers think they owe 'em something for nothing because of prior free content.
But lets not feel to bad for valve, they sure make a shitton of money!
Edit: As for left for dead i have mixed feelings. They tried some really innovative things and for that i give them props, but the director ended up being a bit of a letdown. There's simply not enough random gameplay dymamics to make it exciting. Only one tier of weapons, so you never get any kind of rare uber weapon, and hordes of zombies is the norm everywhere. The only real random event that made any difference was the tank.
Vs mode was tits for a while though, it got a bit stale after a while though, too rock paper scissory. But L4D was a breath of fresh air, a unique multiplayer and single player experience, worth every penny. I remember playing it the first time on a friday night, had a couple forties lined up and had just watched a zombie movie or two, it was EPIC.
Those 1000 people that wont buy it will be replaced by a whole new generation
that has just come into the age of playing these games.
Then 1 friend of each l4d fanatic with a will to boycott will buy it and will
write yo dudeee zomfg its crazy and theyll buy it also.
In the end its paper printed by monkeys on a rotating sphere.
Yeah its getting very atheistic at the end but you get the idea.
L4d was and still is an awesome game worth every penny. I am certain that atleast 90% of the boycotters will by L4D2, they just want to cry about something. But i'm not sure if this kind of event was avoidable. you go visit the l4d forums and its all a bunch of cry babies yelling at each other.
I don't know, i rant. I hate kids that complain about not getting enough FREE shit. go get a fucking job and life while your at it. assholes.
Here's the info page. This is also just known info, not a full picture: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=884519
The only thing that makes people want or think it should be an "expansion" is because it's a PC game and more specifically a Valve game. Valve has continued to support its other products (for free) in the past, so fan A expects the same treatment for his game as Fan B gets. If it was console exclusive, or if that was its largest market (like MW2's), no one would be bitching because another installment would be the natural conclusion.
Originally, I was kind of annoyed too that they were going ahead with L4d2 right away, but for different reasons. My reason was that it would kill anyone working on mods right now, but they've made it possible to take your l4d maps and put them right into l4d2. So they have covered their bases there.
Maybe I sound like a fanboy, but I think people are just being too touchy about this. And based on misinformation no less.
Frump, I don't think you can say "they replaced the L4D weapons with new ones", especially since the post you linked as proof of this actually states "Some old weapons from Left 4 Dead 1 may be included in the new game". Sure, they've added some, but leaving the old ones in lends a bit more of the "expansion pack" feel to it.
In fact using the same models & textures for the smoker/boomer/hunter etc. leads to the same feeling too - I appreciate that they need to keep the same characters recognisable but they could at least give them an art pass. Last video I saw they were literally identical.
Oh well, I'm not complaining too loudly - I've already pre-ordered L4D2 and I'm sure I'll play it a ton, because Versus mode is the most fun I've had in a while (even if it is often frustrating due to lobby/friends/server bugs).
which bugs if i may ask?
and also, if they are reproducible and you know HOW to make them happen.. just .. don't do those things? I've yet to have any issue finding/joining a game with friends, and I played the game quite a bit
People expect too much for free i think, while i do agree there are some bug fixes (mostly what MoP pointed out) that should have been addressed, i still have little to no problem playing the game. Bottom line, Valve=Quality, I've never seen any other developer have so much support and free content post release, and that's the reason i'l buy pretty much anything they put out.
The first video they threw out for l4d2 looked really early in terms new content, but the last month or two have really started shaping up.
Already pre-ordered, cant wait.
if by 'got old quick' you mean the fact that people still play it today, then sure.
It's just so uninspired. They've essentially just given it a reskin, and charging full price at that. What I want is some new features!
Maybe like a vehicle section where you get in a slow moving bus and shoot your way through a long road defending the bus from attacks, payload style.
2 survivor teams racing their way to the one escape vehicle/safehouse/whatever. And the one that doesn't make it is omdom'd by an endless hoarde.
Sections of maps where the survivors (and infected) are forced to split in two.
I could come up with some new ideas all day.
That said, I'll probably end up buying it...
There has been a solution to this for years, release madden, and charge a sub fee, 5 bucks a month= 60 the same that people play, but then every year at more often intervals there can be updates to purely statistical information, or uniforms, facial additions, small patches, and it will sound the same as paying 60 bucks to a customer. But it would actually make them more money because the only middleman becomes microsoft, not the publisher, printer, manufacturer, gamestop etc.
if you're not interested in the game, don't buy it.
I'm sure Valve will make a game that is in line with their values. either respect those values or don't.
I loved L4D, we played it consistently every lunch and every Friday night at beer o'clock for ages. But I personally wasn't all that impressed with the new L4D2 stuff when I saw it a while back (I haven't seen anything recently), primarily because I don't think there was real need for a sequel that soon.
It feels like an expansion and should probably be marketed as an expansion, but if when the game is released, it still looks fun and costs the same as the first one (I paid approx US$30 for it, and that was within the first few weeks of release), I'll probably pick it up and play the shit out of it.
Like John Warner said, if you're not interested in it, don't buy it. It's really plain and simple.
There will always be someone out there that will bitch, boycott, demand more for their money. Valve have always done a great job with releasing tonnes of free shit, constantly patching and fixing things (not always the right things, like MoP mentioned about the matchmaking/server/friends stuff).
I dunno, I see that in a different way. They definitely intended to have the new weapons as the primaries, there are the same amount new as there was for L4D. Iit would be strange and wasteful not to include the old ones as well when they already exist. I know I wouldn't want to have a game with all new ones excluding the old ones. They're in as a fan service rather than laziness or lack of content. But I can see what you are saying.
I worry more about whether I will like the new survivors than I do about amount of content.
Achievements have been posted, showing some of the new content. http://www.xbox360achievements.org/game/left-4-dead-2/achievements/
New scavenge mode looks really interesting, and the defibrillator will definitely be interesting during Versus. Don't really think the user base will be split once it comes out, just take awhile for people to get back to the first (hype dies down).
Like John said, people will bitch, just don't buy it. It is annoying to read about it in the news but so is everything else 'gamers' say. Can't wait for more stuff to come out for both games.
L4D is a weird game though, and the first thing that comes to mind when I want to dismiss it is that "more of the same" argument - but it just doesn't sit right with me, because im going to buy Modwar2 pretty much just for the multiplayer and that IS more of the same. Perks/weapons/maps - while new and nice aren't where the interest really is as most of that gets stripped down fairly quick when you play it seriously.
I can't quite word the difference between the more direct versus multiplayer and L4D's multiplayer that suddenly makes that whole "more of the same" thing work out, its annoying. Perhaps its that L4D really is a well disguised singleplayer game and that the campaigns tire quickly? Once me and my friends cleared the game on expert - after a fortnight or so - we never really returned to the 4player version, there just wasn't any real pull to do so. Hell, most of my versus games were played out with 7 other friends on vent/comms and it became more about having a laugh than the game itself.
I can still go back and enjoy playing TFC on maps ive probably played nigh on a thousand times, but l4d just doesnt have that charm about it for me, even though i loved it to pieces to start!
I agree the content gets old pretty quick. But playing with my friends never does. There's always more funny moments, new tactics and spots to try out on infected and survivors and there's always a new challenge when playing against a new team.
L4D2 will also have a lot more content and some good custom campaigns are coming out soon. Most of the custom content now is pretty boring or low quality in gameplay and aesthetics. A few of the projects coming out soon are much higher quality and should have more refined gameplay from the experience of the designers making them and the amount of time they've had for testing.
Only game I play now is TF2! Valve keeps adding annoying new weapons, but I still keep comin back.
I was surprised about L4D2 coming so quickly, but I don't mind paying full price cause I played the hell out of L4D, and I know I'll play L4D2 for quite a while.
Hopefully the match-making will be fixed (L4D didn't have any at all really), one of the achievements for L4D2 is something like "Form a 4 player team, and defeat another team", I'm hoping that means proper team-vs-team match-making, like on battlenet with blizzard RTS games.
AND I´LL LIKE IT!
it's repetitive, but it's always different depending on who you're playing with or against, and you're getting better in this game as a team, you can't get better and win alone, and that's cool.
Comparing to the time i played this game, it was a lot more worth paying it than most game. It's rare to play one game for a year.
I preordered L4D2.
I love left 4 dead, so what's the problem? the same but a bit better?. I paid more for expansions for games such as quake 2 ¬¬
signed !
Steam is awesome, as a consumer device and as a way of generating income for developers, I just wish it wasn't a bloaty ugly app
If you're not happy with something do what any consumer would do and vote with your wallet by not buying it. End of story.
Plus they announced it when they should have actually been announcing Episode 3 :P
Amen.
B
ah, no, not quite, though I wish
I think you missed what I tried to say, or maybe I'm expressing it incorrectly.. my entire point was basically why is it acceptable in this case vs just about every other game ever made? and I was curious what others thought, I brought the other games in as examples to attempt to illustrate my point, but ya :P
though it seems the 'conclusion' so far is that a lot of people feel that the amount of content included in the game was insufficient, whereas others thought it got old too fast (which is subjective), and some believed valve promised more support when the game was first announced.
Oh Please, I'm going to be the troll/counter point here and say. Petitions are needed. Customers are our base, and we need to listen to them as well versus a tier down method where we force feed them what we think they want. Who do we think we are? Hollywood? Congress? Valve has exceeded at this IMO (listening).
This probably wouldn't have happened, but the thing is Valve had originally made commitments for more updates and content. Then later announced L4d2. So, naturally this is out of character with how Valve acted in the past, and did make more than a few players jaded.
They had and have every right to complain. We have people complain about our game, and instead of calling them a bunch a whiners, take it as constructive criticism for improvement in future releases/patches.
BTW I have no inherent bias in this matter one way or the other swaying me. I have never played L4d.
so true
I do understand why people are bothered by Valve's move, but I can also understand why they've done it - It's almost an addon, but not quite. It's almost a reskin, but not quite - They've added more gametypes and different types of the various infected, but people see original L4D1 content and no major overhaul in graphic fidelity, and they see that £30 pricepoint.
I think that's what the majority of people are having a problem with.
What I think'd squash both sides of the beef is to release it as another episodic-style delivery system; Halflife 2, Ep1 & Ep2 saw significant under-the-hood changes with each iteration, as well as new enemies, etc. This is essentially what L4D2, is, right?
If they've pushed the episodic thing onto us, with steam - both of which have considerably changed the landscape of games release and games distribution - they should absolutely carry on with that in this instance. Lower the price slightly, to reflect the episodic/DLC value. Bish bash bosh.