is it possible to have a kitchen full of cooks in this industry?
polycounter lvl 18
hey guys.. a little while ago someone posted a video about motivation, and how the carrot and the stick doesn't work., and that the thing that does motivate people is autonomy, creativity, etc. awesome talk, and totally true.
I found that when i was going to school, i was TOTALLY motivated to do art.. because it was more of an autonomous creative thing. getting a job really killed the whole thing for me. in that sense, i'm REALLY autonomous.
now that i'm doing stuff for myself, i'm back feeling a lot more inspiration in my life again. I feel.. resourceful.. and competent.. like I might be using a lot more of my potential.
I want to work with people who feel like this. I dont want to hire employees that do what i tell em. I want to know if it's possible to work with a group of people who feel autonomous in the creative sense... but in my experience, this is always judged as a negative.. and people say that there are "too many cooks in the kitchen"
I just love the idea of tapping into people's creativity, drive, passion.. and being an organizer for awesome people to get together and do what they do... awesomely. I think Google has found a piece of this, in letting people spend time every week on their own projects..
so the question is -- is it possible to create a creative environment for everyone? if so, what would that project look like? is it possible for people to have REAL ownership and autonomy. to go their own way.. but to actually have everyone's work fit together somehow...
edit -- btw, one more thing.. for a long while now i've had this fantasy of making a small casual game with everyone here.. kinda like the polycount bathroom stalls. but with a little programming to back it all up.. non profit, of course..
I found that when i was going to school, i was TOTALLY motivated to do art.. because it was more of an autonomous creative thing. getting a job really killed the whole thing for me. in that sense, i'm REALLY autonomous.
now that i'm doing stuff for myself, i'm back feeling a lot more inspiration in my life again. I feel.. resourceful.. and competent.. like I might be using a lot more of my potential.
I want to work with people who feel like this. I dont want to hire employees that do what i tell em. I want to know if it's possible to work with a group of people who feel autonomous in the creative sense... but in my experience, this is always judged as a negative.. and people say that there are "too many cooks in the kitchen"
I just love the idea of tapping into people's creativity, drive, passion.. and being an organizer for awesome people to get together and do what they do... awesomely. I think Google has found a piece of this, in letting people spend time every week on their own projects..
so the question is -- is it possible to create a creative environment for everyone? if so, what would that project look like? is it possible for people to have REAL ownership and autonomy. to go their own way.. but to actually have everyone's work fit together somehow...
edit -- btw, one more thing.. for a long while now i've had this fantasy of making a small casual game with everyone here.. kinda like the polycount bathroom stalls. but with a little programming to back it all up.. non profit, of course..
Replies
having an environment like that would be phenominal if it worked, but unfortunately it would never work with more than 2 or 3 people. i can tell you from presonal experience in this exact situation that no matter how much everyone gets along sooner or latter somebody won't want to do a project/idea/whatever they way the group wants to. and even if they go along with it anyway the disagreements will just continue from there.
let me tell you the brief history of Waking Games. a few years ago a few friends from school and I, already jadded from school (A.I. before VFS) and the Generic sequal factory (EA) had the bright idea that the only way we'd get to make the games we actually wanted to make was to make them ourselves. so working part-time and pooling whatever money we could, we incorporated, licensed Torque3D and set out to revitalize the industry.......
now the first thing you have to keep in mind is that like everything else, different gamers like different games, so while i'm always up for some instant gratification fps or hack'n slash, one of us only liked obscure puzzle games and the 2 Justins both liked to mix they're jrpgs with some adventure platforming, and our first programmer only cared if it looked good. mind you we all enjoyed some avp2 multiplayer and smash bros.
that being said deciding on our first project was actually the easiest part (it's available on the website linked above) and except for an initial misunderstanding all was right with the world. Where things started to turn south was where the always do: money.
no idea, no matter how original or amazing can survive in todays market without the means to support it's development/developers. in order to fund this part-time project we needed full-time jobs, which also how to fund ourselves to different capacities. for some of us this meant food and bus fare, for others it meant rent, car insurance, etc. etc. and what that really comes down to -and my point;)- is that if i have to work my other job twice as much as you, than i have half the time to devote to the game. this is how we lost our first member.
to be continued...
The best work I've ever done have been personal projects and the best time I've ever had working was freelancing. Probably for the same reasons you say, I feel the "most" productive. I really think, for some reason or another, once people become managed (or..over managed...i guess..) they start to lose power. They start to rely on someone telling them what to do and eventually fall into a rut.
I think you would still need people who have the "final say"..like an Art or Creative Director...otherwise, I'm sure it would be chaos. I'm sure we've all tried collaborations that didn't work because 3 artists saw different things in their minds
I've seen a few companies promote artists through art blogs...BHG is the first one that comes to mind. I "heard" Action Pants here in Van supported fine art time as well...though i don't know much about that...That could be a good alternative to staying "structured" and staying creative.
Anyways, interesting discussion. I've been toying with the idea of starting a bigger personal project for quite a while now (mostly thanks to the Airborn guys...so good to see something self motivated progress that way..) to remedy this same situation. As for the casual PC game...count me in, haha
Gav
How long did team fortress 2 take or Starcraft 2? Now think about how much the gameplay changed in both these titles. I'm sure the teams learned some invaluable lessons about what doesn't work on the way, but in the end it's the same franchise with a few new mechanics, slightly changed mechanics that took a top of the line fully funded team years to pound out. How can you expect to find a a team like that for free?
It's a lot easier to find a team full of dreamers, and that team is almost destined for failure. When it's only about the passion, at the first sign that you're not working on a game you want to play any more, you're out. I joined a mod team recently at school, the next day everyone had decided to change from the UT3 engine (which we knew relatively well) to a completely different engine we'd never even touched before. I was out then and there. Too many people don't understand how hard it is to get something like this to work. They blindly jump to wherever their dreams takes them without thinking about the logistics, which is often why they're attempting to make games in the first place.
In order to be on a dev team able to churn out a revolutionary product you need tremendous confidence that in the end your compatriots will deliver. But in order to have that confidence in each other, everyone needs to have shown results already. Most companies just hire people that imitate the past results of the few teams that can do this, it kinda bothers me. In fact, blizzard was known for taking failed experiments of other companies and making them great, but these days there's no one even making failures any more. Just the next madden or Halo.
I'd love to be on a mod team pushing the cutting edge of gameplay, but at the same time i'm tired of eating ramen and borrowing gas money :P. I'll keep an eye on this thread though, I've dabbeled in modding recently and absolutely fell in love with it.
P.S. Might as well link the mod i made recently, nothing amazing, but has some cool ideas:
http://www.fileplanet.com/204033/200000/fileinfo/Unreal-Tournament-3---RamPaGe-Mod-
Where you take it can be all kinda of directions as dictated by each team member. Each could be given control over some small aspect of the game making it "their own"
from and artists standpoint yea having more ownership over your art is always a nice thing but it can certainly lead to conflict between designers/artists. the nice thing is you feel satisfied with what you are creating.
from a company standpoint, having people with experience in defined leadership roles who have say over the end result would be far more appealing to investors I would imagine because they know that having those people in place means they game is far more likley to get done on time and ship which = profit (hopefully) and satisfies the whole reason they would be investing in your company.
if it really comes down to a trade off between the bottom line and jimmy's new dazzling creative idea thats going to put the game behind by a month and miss the ideal shipping season every experience ive had comes down to "just get it done", really sucks but its buisness right.
An environment that fosters creativity is awesome, there will never be a lack of great ideas but itll always be a battle between creative freedom and the bottom line. I think once a smaller company has established it can do awesome things that are someone elses ideas/IPs and become recognized for it, the leeway for creativity becomes a lot less restrictive. unfortunately a small company starting out cant really just say "trust us we are awesome" and expect to be funded it would be like an artist applying at a studio with just a resume, it might be awesome on paper but no one is going to hire them without the portfolio to back that up.
This idea is crazy and will never work. If you guys don't have someone like me breathing down your neck, you wouldn't even bathe, let alone produce something of value.
Thread locked.
aka blurst/flashbang
I think what you said is 100% right for 90% of artists in the games industry
For every 5 cooks, you need a chef, or nothing will get done.
I agree, but it seems like that time is long gone. The whole FPS mod phase is over. But i'm hopeful with some recent news from valve and blizzard, both companies seem interested in providing their fans with powerful mod tools, and even compensation!
I'm really looking forward to starcraft II, got some really cool ideas i want to try out in their editor (here's hoping its as expandable as they say it is), even have some buddies who kinda know their shit working in the industry as designers.
It feels like there's a potential new future for game developement with incredibly approachable mod tools for people with big ideas, but little programing knowledge. That sac boy game was a failure, but i wasn't too surprised because the idea of modding a boring version of mario brothers directly on a PS3 for the PS3 community is retarded.
I'll have to try harder next time.
too busy to reply to everything right now.. will later.
there are tons of creative folks out there that have done well with small start ups and indie projects.
If everyone were to somehow see eye to eye, it's possible a game could be made...but it would consist of bulky space marines, big guns, broken buildings, purple aliens, and tits.
So that's how Epic is run.... That explains everything!!
To some extent TOTAL personal creative freedom can be detrimental due to not having a cohesive end product. On the other side if you don't NEED a cohesive end product then bang away.
Basically think of quake 3 or UT after you installed all the user created characters hosted here, and most of the user maps.
Really the only restriction there was "character must hold a gun somehow" and maps were basically, "must contain multiple spawn points"
So if your end game can deal with having characters which make little to no sense next to each other, and maps that have widely varying themes with only the requirements of programming stringing them all together, then BAM dream company ahoy. (really thats not all that different than the original UT or Q3, space marines, monsters, and busty less than dressed girls, all in places which may or may not be possible, but sure look cool)
Now if you add in a small team with shared interests and a cohesive vision, yeah thats possible. Happens now, and used to be the norm.
Give the employees fridays to work on WHATEVER they wanted (owned by google).
If the project was a great success, then they would hire more people to continue to develop and support your vision for 4 days of the week.
That brought us the ever awesome gmail, google earth, google video, chrome, an all the good stuff.
The problem isn't so much in terms of personalities. People are people, and if you can just find the right mix, you can get such combinations to work. The problem is in blending the disparate styles into a cohesive whole. And the biggest problem is producing content that can consistently sell, and for a reliable enough net to support the company. This is where the industry really fails. The current model it is based on prevents quality projects from flourishing.
A push for more profitable small-scale development is helping in this regard.
ScudzAlmighty -- haha hired! very intersting story, thanks for sharing it. Yeah, I tend to agree. I think that if it did work, people would have to be more or less on the same page.... and the team size would have to be really small
I'm really interested in the idea of starting a workplace that pumps out small simple casual games.. cool games that are fun to play, express new concepts, and can be completed by 2 or 3 people working in synergy with each other.
certainly.. yes, money is a problem. I think that right now, Mitch and I are in a position of sacrifice... we're making an investment here of our time, and are taking a risk. obviously everyone needs to have a means of supporting themselves. I tend to lean on the side of taking big risk and not be afraid to lose a bit.. buuuuutt I dont have a wife, a mortgage, a car, or a kid.
SupRore -- heh right, i get you. Yeah, it's a big challenge. the thing is, take Mitch and i for example. we don't see eye to eye on everything, but we do have something huge in common -- the desire to take a risk and be autonomous. we but heads often, but there's a large commonplace for us just in our desire to make sacrifices to have something like this work. to me, that's helped a great deal.
Gav- awesome. sounds like we're on the same page here. I agree with pretty much everything you said actually. I do wonder if it's possible to be more democratic in terms of things like the art direction, etc.. but i have my doubts on that. I tend to think that if everyone gets over their egos, the person with the most skill and experience tends to take over.. i mean i know what it's like when i'm talking to someone who's a better artist then myself.. but i suppose that this isn't something you can expect from others. maybe something to screen for. hard to say. worth a try perhaps. probably just better to have an art director. maybe it's possible for that person to just be really cool, but ultimately have the final say. haha. once again, it's all about ego.
come to think about it, i think this whole topic is about ego. being able to have confidence and autonomy, with mutual respect and the ability to get over one's self would be central to what this whole issue is all about... am i right? without that piece on the part of everyone involved.. the shit would never work. confidence and humility. by gum, i think that's the cornerstone here.
crazyfingers -- good points.. and good idea about the spiritual successor. Yes, i agree with the whole easy to find dreamers thing. I think that after a while, you get good at sniffing those people out. it's easy to dream about making a game and how cool it would be.. but finishing one is a totally other thing. In my experience, the legit people are the people who have a biiiigg interest in keeping scope low. like super low. like next to nothing. when ever i talk to someone and they go off on some creative tangent about all the cool things that something could be and how awesome it is, it's SO clear that i'll never get done. like ever. I stay away from that shit like the plauge. there's this weird tendency to want to over-scope all the time. that's got to be fought, always.
PixelMasher -- awesome. this is starting to get at the core shit of this shit.. n shit. like i just said.. keeping the scope down is huge.. so if you're going to get people who are creative an autonomous, then perhaps what we're figuring out here is what are the core values that will make this shit work? maybe one of the big things is for everyone to have a willingness to stick to a core idea and NOT go off into space.. because I agree, i don't think that'll work either.
Vito - You're a real charmer.
Vig -- you might be right. 4 or 5 people on a team without a boss man, given the right people? shiiiittttt could be awesome. 8===D
aesir - fuckin a man!
ZacD - I'd say you're certainly right on a bigger production. I think smaller productions can open things up a bit more.
boyluya - heh neat. thanks.
ElysiumGX - hahahahahah awesome.
Vailias -- hm you know, without being ridiculous here.. i wonder if you could create a framework for something like that to make it appropriate and interesting.. basically something totally insane and unpredictable.. hmm just wondering.
JacqueChoi & TheGodZero -- this is totally what i'm talking about. i've mentioned google a few times lately in convo. that shit is genius. some adaptation of that system would be fantastic.
Richard Kain - hmm interesting. perhaps then another necissary value for the team members would be some sensitivity to marketing..
by the sounds of it, what's starting to come out of here is the necessary values that each team member would have to have in order for this to work. also, this would probably only work in a small production team < 5 people... here's a stab at the necessary core values:
1. have team members who want to keep scope down and simplify the game around a central idea that everyone is positive about.
2. have team members who are confident and motivated, but also over their ego enough to put themselves aside and consider someone else's input, and not take it as a thret to their sense of personal empowerment. this one is probably tricky to find haha
3. have the team members be at least somewhat sensitive to marketing, maybe not so that they're making decisions from their wallet (although i'm okay with those types of projects too, if they're creative and unique.. marketing experiments basically) but so that they have some ability to present their work in a way that is appealing to the market.
4. have team members who actually want to get shit done and have finished personal projects before.
5 --?
That's cool though, man, if you can keep adding people to that team without descending into complete chaos, props.
5. 1-2 people who have no interest in games at all but are world renowned under water treasure hunters. They allow the team to use the 3rd dinning room as a base of operations while they are out treasure hunting, which is 9mo out of the year. The other 3mo they take the team on extravagant reference finding trips to far flung corners of the earth. One of them must wear a monocle and religiously drink tea at noon even when being chased by an angry mob...
The thought that you need to win the lottery in order to start this, is the main thing stopping you?
I was just talking today about how the more money I have, the more complacent I am, and that the more complacent, the less creative. I think the less money I have the more willing to to go for insane awesome risks like noted below.... At least for me. As soon as I was out of work I produced more art in 6mos than I did in 5yrs of solid gainful employment. Before the loss of work I had the money to rent a studio and easily start something up. But instead I bought a huge TV, sound system and ate out all the time expensively. Having tons of money means lots more coke parties aboard a hotelicopter, but not necesarily more indie game crews making dope casual games.
that way, you're fulfilling 1 persons creative vision, without pollution from everyone else.
however, you can take turns being the creative mastermind of the project. that way you'll be able to churn out very distinct games in much shorter timespans than if everyone wanted in on selecting ingredients for the cake.
You can also end up loving the project to death.
someone would think that an orange cake is a good idea, and put oranges in your apple cake.
then someone else would want more of a gingerbread taste to it, and throw in some pepper.
and in the end, you'd have a lump of everything, that nobody is happy with.
When working on a team, I think it's best to just be "yes" about things. There is usually a way to reshape everyone's ideas into a solid whole, but each cook has to be less "no," less stuck on their own ideas, which may seem cool to them but are actually sort of lame to others; if everyone can accept that the final concept will be a little different than each person's initial idea, then it will become a team effort, and the creative minds will have worked together towards a collaborative end, rather than simply conflicting with each other.
But yes, it's probably best for everyone to settle on a basic framework/concept, which might be one person's idea. That person just has to give up total control and accept that their team members might have something cool to offer, to improve it.
edit: Like, we're all working off of deja's recipe, but bring our own knowhow or taste into the dish to compliment the meal. Or maybe John Warner wrote the song, but everyone is jamming with their own instruments, and it's each musician's responsibility to harmonize. The opposite of that would be John Warner being the conductor to an orchestra, which is I think how much of commercial production is done, but I think as team sizes shrink, that becomes less of a necessity.