What a solemn day that was 8 years ago today. I hope everyone is doing well today. May we remember the firefighters, police officers, and others who lost their lives on that day.
This is the aniversary of the death of many civil and privacy rights in the western world, the birth of a long lasting tsunami of fear-mongering and what seems to be as the official date when Democracy went from a form of governing to an exported produce. If that makes any sense.
He's from nottingham, it must be some weird local thing.
Here in Germany, spilling beer on purpose is an act of treason.
Don't gangstas pour out liquor for their dead homies?
I remember I was getting my teeth cleaned on 911, and the dentist had a TV brought into the room so he could watch as the whole thing developed. Seemed like a bad idea to me
sad for all lives lost related to this day, but worse for the americans who didn't even have a chance to fight or know what was about to happen to them. Lost a friend in the towers. :poly141:
I think the origin is from roman times. You'd pour out a bit of your drink as a toast to the gods.
I think the real casualty was the progress towards a less isolationist america. It was a scary thing to see how quickly the country gave in to fear and hate...so sad. It's also precisely the reaction the attackers were hoping to provoke, and they succeeded in creating a massive amount of hate for America throughout the world because of that.
There needed to be a reaction, but the fracture that was caused by the way it was handled pushed America away from global cooperation and it's only now that it's starting to mend the damage done.
Respects to the thousands lost today, and the many thousands more lost to the ripple effect.
Today is the anniversary of the event which proved to us how willingly our government is to lie about a tragedy that changes the lives of everyone, all for the sake of pursuing their inhumane motives and taking away our rights. Let this day be a reminder that we all want to know what really happened, and why. A majority of those assigned to the 9/11 investigation, and a majority of those who lost relatives in the disaster, and the rest of the world want to know. No one will forget.
I thought this was a really good docu on 911.
Not political at all. Just focuses on the Identity of a man who jumped from the towers in a final act of desperation.
I think it can be useful to abandon the big picture for a bit, and think about the individuals.
I clicked this thread to see what crazy leftwing nutso comment Elysium would post, sadly I was disappointed by the lack of youtube conspiracy theory videos.
There was a documentary a few days ago on channel 4, which featured lots of footage that hadnt been seen before, like home videos of people walking about and watching the towers come down and this huge cloud engulfing everthing.
It bought home a bit to people that werent there what it might have been like, hard to describe.
He got his 20mins to ask questions, it's in the link on that youtube video junkie supplied.
I was supposed to go to school that day but I was playing Quake 3 Arena and wanted to stay home, so someone said a plane just crashed into one of the WTC's and I was like bullshit, to make a long story short, my school was like 3-5 blocks away from the WTC's.
I'd glad I didn't go...
Yup 8 years, time does fly by doesn't it!?! I didn't loose any body in the WTC's attacks but I hope this topic doesn't fall into negativity as the emotions of that event are still fresh in those that call NYC home!
I apologize for the length, it's just something that's been on my mind a lot lately...trust me I could write pages more :P
But Yeah, I call it the day America went insane. Unfortunately, for those who believe war is the only road to peace, it was a confirmation of their beliefs and a vehicle to further inflate the military industrial complex to the point that it filled the vacant hole that is the American cultural identity. It was the day the first big crack in the armor of an empire beginning to loose it's grip appeared. Hunter Thompson wrote a piece for ESPN the day that it happened that is FRIGHTENINGLY prophetic.
"The towers are gone now, reduced to bloody rubble, along with all hopes for Peace in Our Time, in the United States or any other country. Make no mistake about it: We are At War now -- with somebody -- and we will stay At War with that mysterious Enemy for the rest of our lives.
It will be a Religious War, a sort of Christian Jihad, fueled by religious hatred and led by merciless fanatics on both sides. It will be guerilla warfare on a global scale, with no front lines and no identifiable enemy. Osama bin Laden may be a primitive "figurehead" -- or even dead, for all we know -- but whoever put those All-American jet planes loaded with All-American fuel into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon did it with chilling precision and accuracy. The second one was a dead-on bullseye. Straight into the middle of the skyscraper.
Nothing -- even George Bush's $350 billion "Star Wars" missile defense system -- could have prevented Tuesday's attack, and it cost next to nothing to pull off. Fewer than 20 unarmed Suicide soldiers from some apparently primitive country somewhere on the other side of the world took out the World Trade Center and half the Pentagon with three quick and costless strikes on one day. The efficiency of it was terrifying.
We are going to punish somebody for this attack, but just who or what will be blown to smithereens for it is hard to say. Maybe Afghanistan, maybe Pakistan or Iraq, or possibly all three at once. Who knows? Not even the Generals in what remains of the Pentagon or the New York papers calling for WAR seem to know who did it or where to look for them.
This is going to be a very expensive war, and Victory is not guaranteed -- for anyone, and certainly not for anyone as baffled as George W. Bush. All he knows is that his father started the war a long time ago, and that he, the goofy child-President, has been chosen by Fate and the global Oil industry to finish it Now. He will declare a National Security Emergency and clamp down Hard on Everybody, no matter where they live or why. If the guilty won't hold up their hands and confess, he and the Generals will ferret them out by force.
Good luck. He is in for a profoundly difficult job -- armed as he is with no credible Military Intelligence, no witnesses and only the ghost of Bin Laden to blame for the tragedy.
OK. It is 24 hours later now, and we are not getting much information about the Five Ws of this thing.
The numbers out of the Pentagon are baffling, as if Military Censorship has already been imposed on the media. It is ominous. The only news on TV comes from weeping victims and ignorant speculators.
The lid is on. Loose Lips Sink Ships. Don't say anything that might give aid to The Enemy."
Political debate in this country has been so flavored by the extremes of emotion that marked those early days after the attack, and those flames have been fanned so enthusiastically by politically motivated people and groups seeking to capitalize on the anger, fear, and bruised national pride to further their agendas, that I wonder if it's possible to ever go back. Thompson was right to fear military censorship because it saw it happen with the Vietnam War. However younger generations just bought that it was the way things are. The AP recently got in some hot water for publishing a photograph, against established doctrine, of a freshly wounded American marine in Afghanistan, who later died from his fairly horrific injuries. This is exactly the kind of shit that should be in our faces every day. If we REALLY think more war is what the world needs than we should know what it is exactly that we're spreading throughout the world. Our friends, brothers, fathers, sisters, and potentially sons and mothers are being sent into a reality the government is afraid to let it's people see.
Americans have been so propagandized, so well, that all we think we know about the world, and even about ourselves was most likely thought up in a PR and Advertising firm and spewed out at us in exchange for our money, our allegiance, our values, and our freedoms. Just look at one of the Right wing's favorite phrases, "Real American Values" WTF does that even mean really? Who are the REAL Americans? and who're the fake ones? From when do those values come? The 50's, The "Greatest Generation?" (another slogan) Values that kept black people from voting, and women as second class citizens? Attached to that slogan is typically a picture of a farmer or some farmland. This is also wildly in conflict with reality. Less than 1% of the population of the US claims farming as their livelihood, and of those 2 million farms, 46,000 of them account for 50% of the sales of agricultural products. So not only are 99% of Americans not farmers, of those who are, generally the only profitable ones are working for larger corporate owned and run farms.
I think the origin is from roman times. You'd pour out a bit of your drink as a toast to the gods.
This is how I heard it started. A way to pay tribute.
Can't believe it's been 8 years already. I was a senior in High school when it happened. I was late for class and heading out the door when the first plane hit. When I got to class no one else heard about anything happening because they were all on time, they all probably though I was crazy. Then the principal came in and told the teach that two planes hit the WTC and they dismissed us for the day. The world seems like a completely different place since then.
You're all a bunch of self important pseudo intellectual dicks.
Governments are bad, okay, fuck, we get it, either pay respect for a day of mass tragedy (celebrated because of the significance of the incident -- death, even though war and governmental aims, is part of reality -- that many innocent deaths at once, in one place, in one hour, however, is a big deal) or dont but this ritual doesnt exist to masturbate to your poorly informed political beliefs.
And that's political beliefs on either side, whether it's MUSLIMS ARE BAD or GEORGE BUSH BATHES IN CHILDREN'S BLOOD.
I agree and my image above isn't to poke fun or anything. 9/11 impacted my life greatly as I was in the military at the time. Things changed drastically for me and how everything was.
There are all kinds of conspiracy theory people with their ideas on the net. There the one about the plane that blew up off new york and people think the US Navy shot it down. WTF? Really? Do people not realize that there are at least 350+ people on that boat and anyone of those 19-22 year old kids would easily have told someone or sold the story to a news agency.
that was the day we found out how the rest of the world feels, on a daily basis. we lived in a bubble for far too long, and honestly it was time for it to pop.
Who are we to say they are being disrespectful for trying to pursue whatever truth they are looking for?
This part i agree with. I'm all for educated investigations.
We had some. Those were great. It's good to look at current events with a critical eye.
HOWEVER.
Charlie sheen and polycountermcposter are not investigating the possibility of a conspiracy, they're stirring up shit they arent informed about for attention or to feel important or to jerk off to dissent or what the hell ever.
It seems to me the only people being distasteful are those telling others to "put up or shut up".
This is silly. Burden of proof falls on the accuser. If i said you murdered someone would you be wrong to tell me to "put up or shut up"? Should you roll over and accept punishment just because of baseless accusations?
diminished_Self: You're right, every country but america has three thousand people die at once right next to eachother like, every week, we are total pussies for not being used to it. And it's crazy to mourn or remember it, nobody else EVER pays reverence to days of national tragedy.
You're all a bunch of self important pseudo intellectual dicks.
Governments are bad, okay, fuck, we get it, either pay respect for a day of mass tragedy (celebrated because of the significance of the incident -- death, even though war and governmental aims, is part of reality -- that many innocent deaths at once, in one place, in one hour, however, is a big deal) or dont but this ritual doesnt exist to masturbate to your poorly informed political beliefs.
And that's political beliefs on either side, whether it's MUSLIMS ARE BAD or GEORGE BUSH BATHES IN CHILDREN'S BLOOD.
It would be nice if we lived in a world where things were so simple. I think a lot of people willingly choose to see the world in such black and white terms simply because it makes reality easier to take, takes the taste of blood out of pride, ignores our transgressions and elevates our successes to divinely ordained status. If the only legacy of 9/11/01 were simply a national day of remembrance for those who died, it would be a sad, but beautiful thing. However we don't live in a world where things only have one meaning, no historical context, and opinion manipulation is the stuff of science fiction. The real legacy of 9/11/01 is far bloodier than the 3000 innocent Americans who died that day, it's today's world. That has nothing to do with politics, "pseudo-intellectuals" or conspiracy theories.
The real legacy of 9/11/01 is far bloodier than the 3000 innocent Americans who died that day, it's today's world. That has nothing to do with politics, "pseudo-intellectuals" or conspiracy theories.
That's ridiculous. That's to attach the human legacy of bloodiness to a specific day. Yes, life is painful, yes, opinion manipulation happens, yes people die when they dont need to because of greed.
And yes! The day was propogandized. But these are two seperate events. The american government continuing to be as it is, and the deaths of 3000 people. Do you think the fact that everyone died on this day eight years ago really made the huge scary byzantine militarized government that much more evil?
Let's put this in another scenario -- a more cliche one, but it's illuminating:
Is the holocaust a huge tragedy and loss of human life?
Or is it the dirt the allies finally dug up on the axis to really convince everyone they were the bad guys?
That's all really bad, yeah. But the only real moral stance is to separate these things. It's childish and immature to throw a tantrum and refuse to honor the tragedy just because some social fixture decided to propagandize it after the fact.
I dont exactly agree with ben's post up there that ties the deaths in the middle east to the violence on 9/11 (my stance is that it's not like america's intervention broke a long era of peace and civil liberties in the region, people were dying too often over there anyway) but he definitely has the right idea.
Showing respect for the dead over making a 'my mommy pundit said [political movement] is badddddd' argument.
You guys are flying off the handle a little too easily these days.
If you feel like paying your respects in this thread, go ahead. This is not the time to stir up shit. We've had a huge number of controversial thread topics lately and I'm stopping this one NOW before it progresses in to something so far from the original post it almost needs its own thread.
The next member to bring up controversy, political believes, religion, or anything out of the specific context of the thread is on a 5 day vacation. First and only warning.
I choose to honor this day, and those who died by celebrating life, death is inevitable and everywhere. Death should serve as a reminder that WE ARE STILL ALIVE. Reveling in the victimization of it seems only designed to continue the pain felt at the loss.
I choose to honor this day, and those who died by celebrating life, death is inevitable and everywhere. Death should serve as a reminder that WE ARE STILL ALIVE. Reveling in the victimization of it seems only designed to continue the pain felt at the loss.
Everyone is honoring life. Honoring death, honoring life, honoring the living, honoring the dead -- It's the same thing in a different state of time, it's all about paying respect to human existence.
Anyway, regardless of our disagreements, respect -- we're coming to the same thing from different angles.
It's been 8 years since I learned of 9/11. I was in Camp Pendleton finishing boot camp in the USMC. Talk about the perfect wake up call. Every step we took after 9.11 was desire for full retribution and we saw plenty of it in the following years. May we remember those lives lost, the firefighters, policeman, doctors, everyone who played a role and stepped up to the nations calling.
I remember I was in 4th grade that day. Everything was just canceled without the teachers telling us why. Everyone was just told to go home. It was like the whole world just stopped for me. I had no idea what was going on. Then I got home and my parents were still at work. So I turned on the TV to watch some cartoons and I was hit with a brick wall. It was horrible.
Today I'm thinking about all who lost their lives and their loved ones.
Replies
and I'm talking about Afgani and Iraqi lives.
Here in Germany, spilling beer on purpose is an act of treason.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pour%20one%20for%20my%20homies
I'm trying not to think, it's so sad altogether.
Don't gangstas pour out liquor for their dead homies?
I remember I was getting my teeth cleaned on 911, and the dentist had a TV brought into the room so he could watch as the whole thing developed. Seemed like a bad idea to me
http://www.filife.com/stories/why-multitasking-doesnt-work
I think the origin is from roman times. You'd pour out a bit of your drink as a toast to the gods.
I think the real casualty was the progress towards a less isolationist america. It was a scary thing to see how quickly the country gave in to fear and hate...so sad. It's also precisely the reaction the attackers were hoping to provoke, and they succeeded in creating a massive amount of hate for America throughout the world because of that.
There needed to be a reaction, but the fracture that was caused by the way it was handled pushed America away from global cooperation and it's only now that it's starting to mend the damage done.
Respects to the thousands lost today, and the many thousands more lost to the ripple effect.
I thought this was a really good docu on 911.
Not political at all. Just focuses on the Identity of a man who jumped from the towers in a final act of desperation.
I think it can be useful to abandon the big picture for a bit, and think about the individuals.
I can't believe it's been 8 years already.
It bought home a bit to people that werent there what it might have been like, hard to describe.
Charlie Sheen did this just for you the other day.
[ame]
I was supposed to go to school that day but I was playing Quake 3 Arena and wanted to stay home, so someone said a plane just crashed into one of the WTC's and I was like bullshit, to make a long story short, my school was like 3-5 blocks away from the WTC's.
I'd glad I didn't go...
Yup 8 years, time does fly by doesn't it!?! I didn't loose any body in the WTC's attacks but I hope this topic doesn't fall into negativity as the emotions of that event are still fresh in those that call NYC home!
But Yeah, I call it the day America went insane. Unfortunately, for those who believe war is the only road to peace, it was a confirmation of their beliefs and a vehicle to further inflate the military industrial complex to the point that it filled the vacant hole that is the American cultural identity. It was the day the first big crack in the armor of an empire beginning to loose it's grip appeared. Hunter Thompson wrote a piece for ESPN the day that it happened that is FRIGHTENINGLY prophetic.
Political debate in this country has been so flavored by the extremes of emotion that marked those early days after the attack, and those flames have been fanned so enthusiastically by politically motivated people and groups seeking to capitalize on the anger, fear, and bruised national pride to further their agendas, that I wonder if it's possible to ever go back. Thompson was right to fear military censorship because it saw it happen with the Vietnam War. However younger generations just bought that it was the way things are. The AP recently got in some hot water for publishing a photograph, against established doctrine, of a freshly wounded American marine in Afghanistan, who later died from his fairly horrific injuries. This is exactly the kind of shit that should be in our faces every day. If we REALLY think more war is what the world needs than we should know what it is exactly that we're spreading throughout the world. Our friends, brothers, fathers, sisters, and potentially sons and mothers are being sent into a reality the government is afraid to let it's people see.
Americans have been so propagandized, so well, that all we think we know about the world, and even about ourselves was most likely thought up in a PR and Advertising firm and spewed out at us in exchange for our money, our allegiance, our values, and our freedoms. Just look at one of the Right wing's favorite phrases, "Real American Values" WTF does that even mean really? Who are the REAL Americans? and who're the fake ones? From when do those values come? The 50's, The "Greatest Generation?" (another slogan) Values that kept black people from voting, and women as second class citizens? Attached to that slogan is typically a picture of a farmer or some farmland. This is also wildly in conflict with reality. Less than 1% of the population of the US claims farming as their livelihood, and of those 2 million farms, 46,000 of them account for 50% of the sales of agricultural products. So not only are 99% of Americans not farmers, of those who are, generally the only profitable ones are working for larger corporate owned and run farms.
This is how I heard it started. A way to pay tribute.
Can't believe it's been 8 years already. I was a senior in High school when it happened. I was late for class and heading out the door when the first plane hit. When I got to class no one else heard about anything happening because they were all on time, they all probably though I was crazy. Then the principal came in and told the teach that two planes hit the WTC and they dismissed us for the day. The world seems like a completely different place since then.
nuff said.
Governments are bad, okay, fuck, we get it, either pay respect for a day of mass tragedy (celebrated because of the significance of the incident -- death, even though war and governmental aims, is part of reality -- that many innocent deaths at once, in one place, in one hour, however, is a big deal) or dont but this ritual doesnt exist to masturbate to your poorly informed political beliefs.
And that's political beliefs on either side, whether it's MUSLIMS ARE BAD or GEORGE BUSH BATHES IN CHILDREN'S BLOOD.
It's distasteful enough when people who've bothered to educate themselves even a little do this -- when it's a bunch of chattering voices on the internet who've only ever investigated it in so far as to scrape up evidence in support of their preconceived notions it's pathetic.
It's a day of mourning - leave the BS out of this thread.
There are all kinds of conspiracy theory people with their ideas on the net. There the one about the plane that blew up off new york and people think the US Navy shot it down. WTF? Really? Do people not realize that there are at least 350+ people on that boat and anyone of those 19-22 year old kids would easily have told someone or sold the story to a news agency.
We had some. Those were great. It's good to look at current events with a critical eye.
HOWEVER.
Charlie sheen and polycountermcposter are not investigating the possibility of a conspiracy, they're stirring up shit they arent informed about for attention or to feel important or to jerk off to dissent or what the hell ever.
This is silly. Burden of proof falls on the accuser. If i said you murdered someone would you be wrong to tell me to "put up or shut up"? Should you roll over and accept punishment just because of baseless accusations?
diminished_Self: You're right, every country but america has three thousand people die at once right next to eachother like, every week, we are total pussies for not being used to it. And it's crazy to mourn or remember it, nobody else EVER pays reverence to days of national tragedy.
It would be nice if we lived in a world where things were so simple. I think a lot of people willingly choose to see the world in such black and white terms simply because it makes reality easier to take, takes the taste of blood out of pride, ignores our transgressions and elevates our successes to divinely ordained status. If the only legacy of 9/11/01 were simply a national day of remembrance for those who died, it would be a sad, but beautiful thing. However we don't live in a world where things only have one meaning, no historical context, and opinion manipulation is the stuff of science fiction. The real legacy of 9/11/01 is far bloodier than the 3000 innocent Americans who died that day, it's today's world. That has nothing to do with politics, "pseudo-intellectuals" or conspiracy theories.
That's ridiculous. That's to attach the human legacy of bloodiness to a specific day. Yes, life is painful, yes, opinion manipulation happens, yes people die when they dont need to because of greed.
And yes! The day was propogandized. But these are two seperate events. The american government continuing to be as it is, and the deaths of 3000 people. Do you think the fact that everyone died on this day eight years ago really made the huge scary byzantine militarized government that much more evil?
Let's put this in another scenario -- a more cliche one, but it's illuminating:
Is the holocaust a huge tragedy and loss of human life?
Or is it the dirt the allies finally dug up on the axis to really convince everyone they were the bad guys?
Honestly, it's both. Propaganda happens. Governments kill people. Wars start.
That's all really bad, yeah. But the only real moral stance is to separate these things. It's childish and immature to throw a tantrum and refuse to honor the tragedy just because some social fixture decided to propagandize it after the fact.
I dont exactly agree with ben's post up there that ties the deaths in the middle east to the violence on 9/11 (my stance is that it's not like america's intervention broke a long era of peace and civil liberties in the region, people were dying too often over there anyway) but he definitely has the right idea.
Showing respect for the dead over making a 'my mommy pundit said [political movement] is badddddd' argument.
You guys are flying off the handle a little too easily these days.
If you feel like paying your respects in this thread, go ahead. This is not the time to stir up shit. We've had a huge number of controversial thread topics lately and I'm stopping this one NOW before it progresses in to something so far from the original post it almost needs its own thread.
The next member to bring up controversy, political believes, religion, or anything out of the specific context of the thread is on a 5 day vacation. First and only warning.
I choose to honor this day, and those who died by celebrating life, death is inevitable and everywhere. Death should serve as a reminder that WE ARE STILL ALIVE. Reveling in the victimization of it seems only designed to continue the pain felt at the loss.
Everyone is honoring life. Honoring death, honoring life, honoring the living, honoring the dead -- It's the same thing in a different state of time, it's all about paying respect to human existence.
Anyway, regardless of our disagreements, respect -- we're coming to the same thing from different angles.
Today I'm thinking about all who lost their lives and their loved ones.