Video Games Make Smart Minds
polycounter lvl 18
Hey guys, This is a vid I made recently after becoming frustrated with the non-stop slew of baseless video-games-make-you-stupid arguments. I figgured I'd post it here in GD because it's not really an art pimp that I'm looking for critiques on.. more of a discussion piece.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6Kdj-69Vm4[/ame]
I'm hoping this vid will serve has a good arguing point for video games. I'm trying to contribute something positive in that sense.
[ame]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6Kdj-69Vm4[/ame]I'm hoping this vid will serve has a good arguing point for video games. I'm trying to contribute something positive in that sense.
Replies
one too many images of puzzle pieces though your voice made my heart skip a beat :P
really great presentation and solid use of examples. may be beneficial to take the decision making process learned from playing video games outside of the world of computers and how this developmental process could be applied in a different profession. not necessarily saying "take amy paxton for instance, she played video games as a child and is now a paralegal... blah blah blah..." not like that, but more along the lines of another profession all together without using people as an example but the occupation itself... i dunno where i am going with that... i just think expanding it a little further could really strengthen the argument as right now it seems very tech based in comparing processes learned from video games to using them in real life.
Even at the age of 27, i find myself discovering new thought patterns or habits that help me in a game that i can apply to real life. I think most people at some point try to make their job as much as of a "game" as possible, seeing how quickly and efficiently they can do their job to get a new "high score" in order to do a better job and make the job more tolerable.
good video!
Firebert -- thanks man, good points. honestly, i had worried about that a tad.. but i didn't want to draw the vid on for too long, so i didn't give other examples. I suppose i can always do another one.
Vailias -- thanks. yeah, definitely agree. I like the idea of exploring all sorts of patterns in depth.. but cheee--rist these vids are a bit of a pain to make.
Muzz - thanks man!
crazyfingers - thanks. haha yeah, agreed. on a side note, i think most of the casual games we play are a perfect fit for that psychology.. you've got these games that are all about getting shit done and 'cleared away', like tetris.. busy little worker ants keeping ahead of a never-ending stream of work. hah!
rasmus - thanks! yeah, I might. I'm kinda nerding out lately on finding thought patterns in this-or-that area, so i might go off and look at something else instead. I'll certainly make more vids if this one gets some views heh.
TWilson - ah, thanks a bunch man
willy-wilson - sounds interesting, I'd love to see it. I guess if we didn't have problems we'd probably be bored stupid.
Dkk -- hah awesome! that's what i was hoping for
Japhir -- yeah, i'm inclined to agree. without a doubt, balance is super important.. and it seems that kids can be obsessive. my mom and dad limited me to 2 hours of video game time per weekend day only. I was probably about 6 when i started playing as well. I'm not sure what i think about this 2-hours thing to be honest.. part of me wonders if it didn't make me want to play more... but if i was allowed to i probably would have just played all day ever day.
It also seems strange to me that you would open the video with a quote from Jack Thompson and show the bloodied hand - symbolising violence in video games - and then proceed to ignore the violence aspect of the argument by showing an example of Mario and other similar examples.
I mean I wonder about the value of playing a game repeatedly once the rules have been learned, the major successful strategies discovered and the major objectives completed. You would have to concede that games contain many repetitive elements, some of which are mastered much more quickly than others and thereafter I would think begin to lose there positive mental growth effects.
I think the analogy with your 3d software and understanding systems through video games is novel and kind of interesting. Though I wonder if you are not placing too much weight on your gaming experience for helping you to understand the program. I think it is an isolated piece of evidence why video games may not be a complete brain rot. The success of this cumulative process will also depend on the types of games you play, how you play them, for how long and your personal aptitude among other factors.
Again, I think it is great what you have done by putting the effort into a video like this and I am not at all trying to do anything except expand the argument. I do think that some of the criticisms of video games are valid and ought to be explored further in an empirical manner, and that more discussion needs to happen; so that many perspectives may be considered and real facts may be uncovered. Rather than a 'video games = bad.' vs. 'no really they are awesome trust me because I grew up with them and they are my job and I love them and don't say anything nasty about them because I don't want to believe any of it is true' going around in circles forever.
I'm not sure comparing the games you played and the path you took to games kids play now and the paths they take is all that accurate. In today's games I see a lot more water down puzzles and less analytical thinking being required.
The examples you use Mario and Braid are not typical examples the average kid is going to play. I think it was a smart move to include those games, since they are excellent examples, I just don't know how well the unique lessons they teach are translated to more popular games.
There is also a social component to games now and I think a lot of kids are getting more and more of their social interaction and skills from games.
Shallow games with no story and no morals, just baseless shooting, make stupid minds.
Gaming has gone downhill since most players now skip the story line just so they can shoot a stupid gun for the fifty-billionth time. A good story makes a good game. A stale story is just mindless shooting.
I have to disagree on that,
All depending on the type of game played, you really build up some sick reflexes,
visualy processing, reconnising, coming up with the solution and reacting, in a split second.
Sure it becomes routine but you learn to react when needed, instead of freezing perhaps?
On the flipside I've spent a lot of time playing things like TF2/WoW/CoD and I'm completely dumbfounded at peoples inability to improve/use common sense. This is most notable in WoW, and anyone whos had the privelage of doing a heroic instance with a pickupgroup will probably have encountered the people im talking about.
Also when people dismiss it as "Just a game" as an excuse for not being good... generally frustrates the hell out of me. Like, just because its a game they cant apply reason or logic to their actions, or think about the way they play with a will to improve. I feel like I shouldnt be alone on wanting to get better at things I do... Hell, even if im not going out of my way to get good at a new game i'll still pick up things through experience/trial and error?
I agree to some extent with what Kinetic has to say, especially the 3d program element - I think games/design borrow a lot from life in general, its not like composition and layouts started with games... this is kind of a given though, and im too 'tarded to make a good point out of it!
Also it'd be interesting to look at top gamers, im not exactly pro but i've been about and I find crossing from game to game fairly easy. My point is, there are people whove played things like Quake3 professionally, who are able to switch to things like Trackmania (driving) and people who probably came from FPS backgrounds and jumped into World of Warcraft. The "Good" people seem to jump into new games with an inherant? knowledge of sorts and are quicker to solve the problems. One wonders what a pro korean Starcraft player has learnt from playing so much...
Still, I think games are important and teach things in more ways than one, even if its more an outlook than anything, I too am just throwing in more points to argue off of, but nice job putting the video together!
Cool party tricks, but they could be teaching more, and some do. As much as everyone likes to complain about smacktard teammates and claim they're 99% of the user base, I think it reinforces what people need to do to get along and work as a team. The vast majority of my online play has been accompanied by people who are respectful and helpful.
I think as the industry grows we'll see more things fleshed out, and we'll see more people trying to exert control over what kids are being taught. They probably won't try to counter it by producing content they agree with, but by trying to eliminate the content they don't agree with. Which is why I think the industry needs to grow a spine and defend itself before it gets too involved with teaching.
first -- you're misreading me on the black-and-white thing. I certainly don't think this is a simple topic, but I would hope that just because i haven't unpacked the entirety of my viewpoint, it wouldn't be assumed that the point I did present is the entirety. I can't be washing down all of my points with counter-points for the sake of coming off as "reasonable".. at some point we have to assume that of each other, or our discussions will go on for ever as we stroke ourselves to convince each other how fair and balanced we are.
anyway. yeah, good point on the violence thing. I guess it was the most overt thing i could find, but I suppose it was a bit of a mistake. I personally have no real interest in that argument, to be honest. also, yeah, of course, I dont think that the entirety of my cognitive skillset came from video games, but certainly they were a positive influence.
I think this brings up another argument.. more of a meta thang. I don't agree that I need to be so pros-cons with my facts and points, i think that's a mistake. what that's going to end up with is one side screaming like assholes, and the other side being reasonable and giving the other side their due. Intellectual debate is only valuable when you're speaking with other intellectuals, and in that case it's redundant, because they already know that one point of view is just a piece of the puzzle. breaking down your generalizations is almost completely pointless... if you can trust that I have some interest in finding the truth, and not just being right.
but i suppose that's usually fucking..... long odds... isn't it?
Vig - thanks man. yeeaaahhhh I think i agree. It has been comming up a lot lately that modern video games are getting easier.. and i dont think it's just me. We hold a lot of hands now-a-days. we should probably be kicking the crap out of these kids. remember when you'd get stuck at some end boss for like 2 fucking hours and you wanted to cry? i love it. They're saying of the next generation that nobody is allowed to be a loser. biigg problem if you ask me.
PieJesu -- haha well I disagree that you get NOTHING... I totally agree with Rens on that point.. but I think i DO agree that story is hugely important and it does frustrate me to see a lot of really simple stupid plots and a lot of cloned gameplay. I do get bored of shooting shit as well.
Jackwhat - interesting.. I tend to be someone who can jump into any game and do fairly well.. depending on the genre i guess. One of the feelings I got playing Braid was that it was somehow a culmination of a whoolle pile of subtle patterns that I learned from video games as a kid, but never sorta became conscious of. It was almost like he was summarizing 20 years of games in some weird way. I keep getting this sense like we're about to go through a huge change in games, when we can start doing this stuff consciously. exciting shit!
Attempting to control the educational process is a mistake, and always has been. It's the old fish argument. Give a man a fish, and he will be hungry again in a few hours. Teach a man to fish, and he will never go hungry again. Teach a kid a few facts, and they will have those few facts. (and sometimes will eventually forget them) Teach a kid how to learn on their own, and they will always be able to get the information they need.
Forced memorization is only a small part of the learning process, and it certainly isn't the root. The most exceptional learners are always the ones motivated not by a need to achieve some arbitrary standard, but by simple curiosity. Teach a kid how to find things out for themselves, and then dangle in front of them tantalizing avenues of learning that you know they will probably be interested in. Then sit back and watch curiosity drive them forward. The fundamentals of proper research technique should be a required subject in grade school.
Oh, and I'd say that arguing that children will pick up the tools to create video games more easily is hardly an argument that's going to win over people who dislike games ;p .
As for the bigger discussion here, yes, games teach you things, but so do the alternatives. Playing outdoors gives you reflexes and it's healthy and it's social, reading books is the pinnacle of getting-smarter technologies, making puzzles does something clever too and Lego gives great structual insight. So keep in mind that a lot of what children do is very helpful and only watching TV, I'd argue, is a worse pasttime than games.
I'd also like to argue that while there is a certain element of decision-making, this quickly becomes routine and the game is more about honing specific skills than about thinking cleverly. You'll have a decision with your first couple of Goombas, but after a while it's rather a matter of seeing how fast you can go past those Goombas and the trouble in Mario is more with the execution of the plan than coming up with it. Hand-eye-coordination, I know, is a skill, but I don't think it's really that important, at least not compared to linguistic and social skills.
It differs, of course, per game, but no 6-year old is going to play Europa Universalis. The vast majority of games focuses on improving your hand-eye coordination, and storytelling, as important as it is, is pretty much piss poor in all but a few games.
Thinking about teaching a skill step-by-step, though, two games immediately come to my mind; Portal and World of Goo. Portal teaches about momentum and spatial awareness, WoG teaches about construction and gravity. Both play almost as if they're primarily made to teach you a skill. Both are very good games. But! Both are puzzle games. That's hardly even a genre anymore these days and you can be sure that most people will sooner come into contact with testosterone filled shooters. So the question is, do people actually want to learn, or do they want to hone skills and hoard fat loot?
Additionally, if school could be made more like a game, (instead of edutainment, which tries to make games more like a school) there would be far more motivated students, and far less dropouts.
rated vid 5 stars, and faved
oh and there's been done scientific tests which shows that video games doesn't have detrimental effects on kids, shooters for example increase reflexes.
a good example is the total war series. its like a crude interactive history book.
i didn't know the ottoman empire existed before i played that game, and i had no idea what djengis khan did, or who timur the lame was.
and before empire total war, i had no idea sweden once attacked russia..
oh and driving games.
Yeah, I was gonna say something about that too. Maybe if you use a slew of examples instead of something game art related--such as a car's dashboard, a simple web 2.0 site, a newspaper. Several examples, both analog and digital, might really help sell that point, which I think is pretty valid.
Otherwise, nice vid!