edit2:
fucking marketing page- tells me stuff that has no content, anway the important sentence is at the very bottom:
A New Approach
For the first time, a professional 3D application is evolving in collaboration with a community of artists. With LightWave CORE the members are part of the development process, not just the final stage of bug testing. Leveraging substantive and immediate community feedback breaks new ground in the 3D industry. We believe the collaboration between NewTek and the HardCORE team members represent the future of effective product development.
so its community / openSource alike approach to include the community to further develop and extend the slim version of Lightwave called "lightwave core".
Slim version? Core is the next iteration of LightWave, essentially LightWave 10, but a complete rewrite from the ground up that's been worked on for a number of years before Hard Core started last March. I don't know any of the real details yet since I'm not yet a Hard core member. Everything will be in there, modeling, animation, texturing, rendering, particle effects, etc.
Some things that are revolutionary IMO are that the native file format will be Collada so it will natively work with most game engines and other 3D apps. Plus the SDK that developers get is the same exact SDK that the in-house developers are using.
I think what Hard Core is basically beta testing, but from a very early stage. You also get a discount on the program and a guarantee that you will keep that dicounted price for all future upgrades.
I am really disappointed by the videos even though I know the software is in early development stages- but what I saw and read so far makes it already for me clear:
Innovation is out of place for that program, they take what they did before mix it what already others did many years before ago.
Like aged separate window edit shortcuts manager, have a look at silo god damn it. Modifiers are yet to primitive with no support for references instead of instances (many apps don't even know what that is).
It looks almost on the same level as Blender (interface rework, basic modifier architecture, available code & classes,...). Except the price - and I think for that they need to aim higher.
Those videos are actually quite old, they were posted when Core was first announced. As for LW not being innovative, that's a joke since LW was one of the first 3D applications, datiing back to 1988, the first to have hypervoxels, the first to use Sub-Ds, and the first to have Stereoscopic rendering which it had when I first started using it back in 2002. LW owns the TV market and is quite well known in feature films as well, dating back to it's use in Jurassic Park.
BTW if it looks to be at the same level as Blender that sounds pretty good actually since Blender's been around for years and this is still months away from being released.
I was talking about LW core, not LW 9, maybe i am taking it for something different because of the marketing on their side.
Will see how this turns out
Well the screenshots were interesting to me because the new ones show the new look of the nodal system. They also show some of the skins that will be available.
As for Core there's the stuff I mentioned above, but NewTek is keeping their mouths shut pretty tight for now. I think the most details we have are in the technology FAQ: http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/core/techfaq.php
so its community / openSource alike approach to include the community to further develop and extend the slim version of Lightwave called "lightwave core".
No, Core is available at the moment to those you have bought into the 'hardcore' membership and Newtek are taking there input and suggestions.
Basically there re-writing lightwave with a node-based architecture, python scripting, QT interface and its based on Collada as its default file format.
The UI at the top is done by Matt over at Newteks forums, the basic black one at the bottom is just a placeholder at the moment.
Well, if nothing else it's a commendable effort. How many people still use Lightwave now? They probably need something to rejuvenate their sales. Last I checked there was a lot of stuff in LW that is hugely outdated compared to every other app out there. No control over surface "smoothing" other than through a material property!?
No way to soften/harden edges? No way to even select edges (or did they fix this yet)?
It just felt to me like working in the stone age. Skinnable UIs aren't going to fix the underlying issues. As long as they update that stuff then it may become a viable alternative to Max/Maya again as a pipeline app. How about merging all of the tools into one single package, too? Are they keeping the separate "modeler/layout" setup? Again just feels outdated to me, if they keep that then I don't think it'll make a good impression.
Also why does it seem so hard for people to make nice UIs for windows without resorting to all sorts of weird "skinning" stuff, I don't care if my buttons have rounded edges or little black outlines, I care if the button does cool stuff when I click on it! You can make perfectly usable UIs using default windows (or better, wxWidgets) controls, as far as I can see there's not much reason to allow skinning?
The main changes I see people making to Max/Maya UIs is just the colour scheme, which you can do through standard Windows UI anyway.
I'll wait to see how this turns out but I don't know if it'll make LW a proper competitor again.
No way to soften/harden edges? No way to even select edges (or did they fix this yet)?
Edge hardening or softening has been in there at least since I started using it in 2002. Edge selection came out in 8.5 back in 2004 I believe.
It just felt to me like working in the stone age.
That's funny since I keep hearing Modeler considered one of the best modeling applications out there. and I've personally tried all the big ones except XSI.
Skinnable UIs aren't going to fix the underlying issues. As long as they update that stuff then it may become a viable alternative to Max/Maya again as a pipeline app. How about merging all of the tools into one single package, too? Are they keeping the separate "modeler/layout" setup? Again just feels outdated to me, if they keep that then I don't think it'll make a good impression.
Nobody suggested UI skins would do anything but make it a more pleasant application to use. Modeler and Layout will be merged, but luckily users still have the option to keep the separate.
I'll wait to see how this turns out but I don't know if it'll make LW a proper competitor again.
LW still is a proper competitor. Just look at recent movies like 300 (almost entirely LW) and Iron Man (big chunks done in LW) and Serenity (almost entirely LW), not to mention TV shows like Battlestar Galactica that was almost entirely LW.
Currently it's not huge in games but the Doom 3 (id Tech 4) and Unreal 2.5 Engines both used LWO as their default object format. As Core switches it's native file format to Collada this should become even bigger for games.
It's true, id used to use LW but have switched over mainly to Modo for modelling.
PhilNolan3d, I was using LW8 for a couple of years and I never found a way to do edge hardening/softening in Modeler - could you tell me where the tools for this are? I even asked a guy who had been using LW for ages, and he didn't think there was a way to do it per edge. And this was in 2006.
Maybe it came along later than I thought, I don't remember it's been a long time though. Here's a quick video. You can find it under Details > Edges > Set Sharpness
Philnolan: That's not what I'm talking about. That's edge weights for subdivision surfaces (akin to "Crease" in Maya and Max).
I'm talking about splitting normals on a lowpoly mesh - eg. Maya's "Soft/Hard Edge" method, or Max's Smoothing Groups.
The only way I ever found to control this in LW was through the Material settings, you set a "smoothing angle" and it will display the mesh by breaking normals along edges between faces which are over that angle. Not a useful method for production work, since it gives you essentially zero control over specific edges.
As far as I recall, Modo is stuck with this method too - no control over lowpoly normals other than "smoothing angle" per material. Which is pretty poor in this day and age, I reckon.
No you can't do that in LW MoP. It's still tied to surfaces. So you want multiple smoothing groups, you gotta have a surface for each one. It's ridiculous.
Ah yes that is still there. I've never had a problem with it so I forget that some people ask about it. You can set a Vertex Normal map but I don't really know much about it since I didn't need it for anything. Looking it up now.
philnolan3d: You don't work in games, do you?
We need that sort of control over normals nearly every day, and LW just doesn't have it. One of the reasons I stopped using it.
The only thing I actually liked about LW on a day-to-day basis was the fact that you could open multiple objects in Modeler at once and toggle between them. It's a nicer workflow in some cases than having to close/reopen entire scenes just to edit a single object. But all the other stuff that was either the same or no better than Maya/Max/XSI didn't balance that out, compared to the stuff that LW was lacking.
Well the whole point of this thread was that LW Core is going to be a huge change. Even if some feature you want isn't included you can either write it yourself or there are thousands of really good third party developers who frequently make plugins for free or cheap. Just look at Flay.com
BTW at the moment no I don't work in games. I have done quite a number of art tests and interviews with studios like blizzard though. Not hat that affects my knowledge on the smoothing matter of course. If you care this is the personal project i'm just finishing up now: http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5536/starfighterlores31.jpg
My LW is more like a plugin for Maya. If I need crazy control over exact measurements, or a product model I just do it in LW. Or a kick-ass product render and I don't wanna whittle my life away with Maya's renderer. But 99% of the time I am in Maya. Just sucks all these little things LW can't do for the game stuff adds up.
I really do hope Core changes a lot of things and get the app up to and above others with similar features. I might plunk $500 down for the upgrade.
philnolan3d: Well, the same thing has been the case with Maya and Max ever since the API has been available - if some feature I want isn't included, I can just write it myself... the point is that a lot of basic stuff that I shouldn't have to write myself wasn't included.
As you say, it's a big change, so hopefully they will overhaul some of the older stuff and bring features up to date. If they don't then it will be a shame, IMHO, given the opportunity they have now.
BTW your starfighter model is looking quite good so far. A couple of tips (if you're interested) is maybe you should have a bit more colour variation, get away from the grey look of most of the panels, and also I might decrease the bump depth a bit, right now it looks like people have been at it with chisels and hammers rather than it getting scorch marks or grazes from meteorites and laser beams. Also the surface properties read a bit more like stone than metal as a result of the deep bump and lack of specular on the metal panels.
I guess we all have our own things that we like and dislike about apps. I find max and maya lacking a lot but, to each his own.
Thank you, I might lower the depth on the scratches layer some, I've already lowered it to 75% and an old friend at a game studio didn't mention anything about it. I've already exported all of the textures and everything so I'll have to think about it.
Be sure to read the .pdf.
Not much game oriented stuff mentioned though. But theres some neat stuff like subdividing using the GPU, interactive rendering.
Be sure to read the .pdf.
Not much game oriented stuff mentioned though. But theres some neat stuff like subdividing using the GPU, interactive rendering.
BANNED!!!:):)
As long as rendering is improved, they toss in some modeling tools that work and beef up how it handles large files, then I won't buy Modo (as the upgrade is 1/2 of a full Modo Lic). I use LW for product/prototype renders and **some** modeling. As for game stuff, well, not too concerned, I use Maya all the time.
NT never really took it with the game stuff like they should have and all they had to do was fix a handful of things. LW JUST got edges as a selection mode.
I think there off to a good start, Collada as there main storage format, new arcitecture. If you compare there development cycle to Luxology, Newtek have a lot of stuff in Core 1 than what Modo had in 101.
Now they just need skinning, baking tools and drop that whole (Nothing selected is everything selected) philosophy , LOOSE THE SMOOTHING ANGLE and impliment proper hard edge support and there good to go.
That burns me to no end. Back in 2002 I swore to never buy another Autodesk app after they screwed me with the "3DS Max 6 upgrade/No you can't have 5 installed" bullcrap. And here I am forced into the arms of Autodesk again with Maya/Motionbuilder.
Well, hopefully NT gets it right for those of us who are into game stuffs. If the collada functions works perfect with UnrealED (from animations to static meshes). Then I won't have to use Maya so much :P and I won't have to worry about where I am gonna find the $$ to upgrade. With LW it's like "Oh, here's $200~$300 bucks...". Maya is like "Shit, I gotta start saving if I want this...".
Replies
edit: nevermind google told me already:
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/core/index.php
edit2:
fucking marketing page- tells me stuff that has no content, anway the important sentence is at the very bottom: so its community / openSource alike approach to include the community to further develop and extend the slim version of Lightwave called "lightwave core".
Some things that are revolutionary IMO are that the native file format will be Collada so it will natively work with most game engines and other 3D apps. Plus the SDK that developers get is the same exact SDK that the in-house developers are using.
I think what Hard Core is basically beta testing, but from a very early stage. You also get a discount on the program and a guarantee that you will keep that dicounted price for all future upgrades.
Innovation is out of place for that program, they take what they did before mix it what already others did many years before ago.
Like aged separate window edit shortcuts manager, have a look at silo god damn it. Modifiers are yet to primitive with no support for references instead of instances (many apps don't even know what that is).
It looks almost on the same level as Blender (interface rework, basic modifier architecture, available code & classes,...). Except the price - and I think for that they need to aim higher.
BTW if it looks to be at the same level as Blender that sounds pretty good actually since Blender's been around for years and this is still months away from being released.
Will see how this turns out
As for Core there's the stuff I mentioned above, but NewTek is keeping their mouths shut pretty tight for now. I think the most details we have are in the technology FAQ:
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/core/techfaq.php
No, Core is available at the moment to those you have bought into the 'hardcore' membership and Newtek are taking there input and suggestions.
Basically there re-writing lightwave with a node-based architecture, python scripting, QT interface and its based on Collada as its default file format.
The UI at the top is done by Matt over at Newteks forums, the basic black one at the bottom is just a placeholder at the moment.
No way to soften/harden edges? No way to even select edges (or did they fix this yet)?
It just felt to me like working in the stone age. Skinnable UIs aren't going to fix the underlying issues. As long as they update that stuff then it may become a viable alternative to Max/Maya again as a pipeline app. How about merging all of the tools into one single package, too? Are they keeping the separate "modeler/layout" setup? Again just feels outdated to me, if they keep that then I don't think it'll make a good impression.
Also why does it seem so hard for people to make nice UIs for windows without resorting to all sorts of weird "skinning" stuff, I don't care if my buttons have rounded edges or little black outlines, I care if the button does cool stuff when I click on it! You can make perfectly usable UIs using default windows (or better, wxWidgets) controls, as far as I can see there's not much reason to allow skinning?
The main changes I see people making to Max/Maya UIs is just the colour scheme, which you can do through standard Windows UI anyway.
I'll wait to see how this turns out but I don't know if it'll make LW a proper competitor again.
They showed some stuff like sud-dividing to 50 million polies using GPU's instead of CPU's. Some of it looks promising.
There's quite a few apps using QT for there UI and i believe the next version of maya will have QT.
Edge hardening or softening has been in there at least since I started using it in 2002. Edge selection came out in 8.5 back in 2004 I believe.
That's funny since I keep hearing Modeler considered one of the best modeling applications out there. and I've personally tried all the big ones except XSI.
Nobody suggested UI skins would do anything but make it a more pleasant application to use. Modeler and Layout will be merged, but luckily users still have the option to keep the separate.
LW still is a proper competitor. Just look at recent movies like 300 (almost entirely LW) and Iron Man (big chunks done in LW) and Serenity (almost entirely LW), not to mention TV shows like Battlestar Galactica that was almost entirely LW.
PhilNolan3d, I was using LW8 for a couple of years and I never found a way to do edge hardening/softening in Modeler - could you tell me where the tools for this are? I even asked a guy who had been using LW for ages, and he didn't think there was a way to do it per edge. And this was in 2006.
http://screencast.com/t/ugZlFdm8N
I'm talking about splitting normals on a lowpoly mesh - eg. Maya's "Soft/Hard Edge" method, or Max's Smoothing Groups.
The only way I ever found to control this in LW was through the Material settings, you set a "smoothing angle" and it will display the mesh by breaking normals along edges between faces which are over that angle. Not a useful method for production work, since it gives you essentially zero control over specific edges.
As far as I recall, Modo is stuck with this method too - no control over lowpoly normals other than "smoothing angle" per material. Which is pretty poor in this day and age, I reckon.
I should run over to NT and complain about it.
::EDIT:: Thanks for opening a wound. :P
We need that sort of control over normals nearly every day, and LW just doesn't have it. One of the reasons I stopped using it.
The only thing I actually liked about LW on a day-to-day basis was the fact that you could open multiple objects in Modeler at once and toggle between them. It's a nicer workflow in some cases than having to close/reopen entire scenes just to edit a single object. But all the other stuff that was either the same or no better than Maya/Max/XSI didn't balance that out, compared to the stuff that LW was lacking.
BTW at the moment no I don't work in games. I have done quite a number of art tests and interviews with studios like blizzard though. Not hat that affects my knowledge on the smoothing matter of course. If you care this is the personal project i'm just finishing up now:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5536/starfighterlores31.jpg
I really do hope Core changes a lot of things and get the app up to and above others with similar features. I might plunk $500 down for the upgrade.
As you say, it's a big change, so hopefully they will overhaul some of the older stuff and bring features up to date. If they don't then it will be a shame, IMHO, given the opportunity they have now.
BTW your starfighter model is looking quite good so far. A couple of tips (if you're interested) is maybe you should have a bit more colour variation, get away from the grey look of most of the panels, and also I might decrease the bump depth a bit, right now it looks like people have been at it with chisels and hammers rather than it getting scorch marks or grazes from meteorites and laser beams. Also the surface properties read a bit more like stone than metal as a result of the deep bump and lack of specular on the metal panels.
Thank you, I might lower the depth on the scratches layer some, I've already lowered it to 75% and an old friend at a game studio didn't mention anything about it. I've already exported all of the textures and everything so I'll have to think about it.
Be sure to read the .pdf.
Not much game oriented stuff mentioned though. But theres some neat stuff like subdividing using the GPU, interactive rendering.
As long as rendering is improved, they toss in some modeling tools that work and beef up how it handles large files, then I won't buy Modo (as the upgrade is 1/2 of a full Modo Lic). I use LW for product/prototype renders and **some** modeling. As for game stuff, well, not too concerned, I use Maya all the time.
NT never really took it with the game stuff like they should have and all they had to do was fix a handful of things. LW JUST got edges as a selection mode.
Now they just need skinning, baking tools and drop that whole (Nothing selected is everything selected) philosophy
Best of all, no Autodesk.
Well, hopefully NT gets it right for those of us who are into game stuffs. If the collada functions works perfect with UnrealED (from animations to static meshes). Then I won't have to use Maya so much :P and I won't have to worry about where I am gonna find the $$ to upgrade. With LW it's like "Oh, here's $200~$300 bucks...". Maya is like "Shit, I gotta start saving if I want this...".