It's not jes time n effort of an individual piece of work.
I give away personal code and art for free a lot ( to people I like ).
If I have no association with you and you want my work...
You are doing so because.
U can't deliver yerself
others can't deliver as promised.
You feel yer talentless greedy entitlement somehow trumps mine?
u have plenty of talent, but r low on indentured servants fer this quarter
You will pay and acknowledge rights because: ( da reason u have to pay )
talent has value.
I have to deal with you.
I have to stand behind my werk and invariably offer support/consultation in the werks execution.
possibly misrepresenting artworks may pain me mentally and or my reputation
The talent desired is the result of a lifetime "investment" of discipline/suffering.
Personal work is an integral part of that skill honing discipline/suffering.
The money exchanged is a meager pittance towards investment return.
Like any other "profession" ( doctor, Lawyer, barber etc...)
paying for a service has always been a polite illusion. You are actually paying for expertise and peace of mind.
( U easily know this to be true when going under the knife ). You secure that assurance with the freelance artist's digital asset copy.
( "Talent Tenderizer" no more abstract than Legal Tender ).
I don't know if such an abstraction is inherently evil or greedy.
Is it even possible to be greedy if essentially all yer wealth goes to a home and children's college fund?
Are there any freelance artists out there laughing all the way to the bank?
No... Not giving away value for free is not greed.
Power/empowerment perhaps.
Is that a sin?
Fuck that. Stepping back into the real world, people have loans, rent and other things to pay. What may be morally right doesn't really work in society regardless if you think times are changing, because things haven't changed right now.
In some societies, everything is in abundance, and people have a lot of security to do things for free and debate philosophy and invent great things. I'm not sure if the world is in such a state these days. When we're all fighting to survive, all work, basically, has some value. Whether or not it's worth money depends on whether or not someone wants to offer their money for it.
It's possible to create one's own security, and do charitable things, but in considering this, the sale of artwork for something that will net someone else money, there is no reason not to make the exchange. A measly game artist can't make professional money by going on tour like NiN. Trent Reznor can afford to offer his professional work for free. We can't. It's not a lust for money, it's a lack of financial security otherwise. What are we going to do, get 500,000 people to come watch us model at $60 a ticket?
Until the king, or some benevolent dictator, or the farmers of the world, can provide food and housing for me, without my having to lift a finger, my work has value; even if I've done it for free, for myself, if someone else wants to use it, they should want to pay for it. If they can't put in the work to create it themselves, then they can exchange money they earned doing some other form of work in order to make the goods theirs. If I gave it to them for free, then they made money off the product they used it in, isn't that enabling their greed? Ugh, this argument is twisted.
There are people I'd gladly work for, for free. If they can afford to pay for it, they should want to - that's simple kindness. Shared generosity. An exchange of value and time for money, which will keep me alive longer... so they can keep using me for models... oh my god, we're all slaves to this greed! the greed to live. Breathing is greedy, & we're all breathing. No more hate.
But there's my rant for greed of listing meaningless opinions...
So, I've been approached by a commercial game engine about using one of my portfolio-pieces as-is for their demo, and just thought I'd swing this by you lovely hairy man-creatures for some advice:
1. Basically, what rights should I ask to retain to what is already all mine? It seems like retaining all the rights to my work, plus the rights to use parts of it in other work, while still giving this client the right to show it off and distribute everything but the source files themselves is a possibility, which sounds like a good deal to me - is there anything else I need to know?
2. What kind of compensation would be reasonable to ask for in a case like this? The work done, the work to be done to get it running, plus something for their right to distribute it?
Thanks!
Rasmus, you say you're a freelancer so I'm assuming you've done some freelance contracts in the past. I'd treat it like that. Since it started as a personal project and thus didn't have multiple revisions and external art direction and such, and you don't need to budget for those things, you'll probably wind up offering lower than what you normally would charge.
So basically figure out an hourly wage you'd like, multiply that by the number of hours spent on the asset, add some additional time for getting it set up with their engine. Season with rights management (you retain rights to the work and derivatives - lower price, if they get the source assets set up as an example scene - higher price, etc).
I'm kind of assuming this is the large sewer/tunnel scene you have that you posted a while back, as that would be a great example for an engine. That has a ton of pieces that will probably need to be set up as individual static meshes, so there is probably a good chunk of time that will eat up to get it working in the engine.
If this is a really prominent engine and you are really hurting for work, bidding lower to ensure you get your name out is OK, but I can't see you doing this for very cheap.
I'm assuming this is all just gravy money and you don't need it to pay bills in two weeks, in which case you really ought to act as if you don't need it, and don't be overly flexible. Make an offer that is higher than what you would settle for, when they go "thats really much more expensive than we were expecting" ask them what they were expecting, if it is still above your "settle for" amount then negotiate up but don't be too greedy and spoil it. If it is a bit lower, then negotiate up to your settle price and if they won't go up to it then tell them to get lost politely.
Just like bidding for something on ebay you need to go into it with set goals in mind, or else you'll try to hard to "win" the "prize" and wind up getting yourself a shitty deal.
Thanks Rasmus... Please know that I in no way want to devalue your talents or deface your reputation.
I feel very strongly about the topic of IP and felt that the masses here were not tuned in to being able to understand Vito's comments. I took an extreme point of view in hopes of stepping away from the details for just a moment.
What you made, you're proud of. If you've been approached, someone obviously sees value in it also.
The artwork for the Obama campaign, that red white and blue work... it was done for free. The artist that did it is now making a lot of money, largely because of this contribution.
From what I've read in this thread, it seems to me that there may be a connection between the interest in your project and the fact it was built from passion.
There's a whole lot of "I" in the comments here... not much "we".... and I don't expect that will change any day soon. So long as we embrace the current system for our own needs, we make sure the system keeps on serving those who are currently abusing it. I can't change anything. I'm not even sure if we can. However, I know I would try if we were working together.
I do hope everyone finds the wealth, success, and reputation you desire.
Replies
I give away personal code and art for free a lot ( to people I like ).
If I have no association with you and you want my work...
You are doing so because.
- U can't deliver yerself
- others can't deliver as promised.
- You feel yer talentless greedy entitlement somehow trumps mine?
- u have plenty of talent, but r low on indentured servants fer this quarter
You will pay and acknowledge rights because: ( da reason u have to pay )- talent has value.
- I have to deal with you.
- I have to stand behind my werk and invariably offer support/consultation in the werks execution.
- possibly misrepresenting artworks may pain me mentally and or my reputation
The talent desired is the result of a lifetime "investment" of discipline/suffering.Personal work is an integral part of that skill honing discipline/suffering.
The money exchanged is a meager pittance towards investment return.
Like any other "profession" ( doctor, Lawyer, barber etc...)
paying for a service has always been a polite illusion. You are actually paying for expertise and peace of mind.
( U easily know this to be true when going under the knife ). You secure that assurance with the freelance artist's digital asset copy.
( "Talent Tenderizer" no more abstract than Legal Tender ).
I don't know if such an abstraction is inherently evil or greedy.
Is it even possible to be greedy if essentially all yer wealth goes to a home and children's college fund?
Are there any freelance artists out there laughing all the way to the bank?
No... Not giving away value for free is not greed.
Power/empowerment perhaps.
Is that a sin?
Sallie mae > my feelings
It's possible to create one's own security, and do charitable things, but in considering this, the sale of artwork for something that will net someone else money, there is no reason not to make the exchange. A measly game artist can't make professional money by going on tour like NiN. Trent Reznor can afford to offer his professional work for free. We can't. It's not a lust for money, it's a lack of financial security otherwise. What are we going to do, get 500,000 people to come watch us model at $60 a ticket?
Until the king, or some benevolent dictator, or the farmers of the world, can provide food and housing for me, without my having to lift a finger, my work has value; even if I've done it for free, for myself, if someone else wants to use it, they should want to pay for it. If they can't put in the work to create it themselves, then they can exchange money they earned doing some other form of work in order to make the goods theirs. If I gave it to them for free, then they made money off the product they used it in, isn't that enabling their greed? Ugh, this argument is twisted.
There are people I'd gladly work for, for free. If they can afford to pay for it, they should want to - that's simple kindness. Shared generosity. An exchange of value and time for money, which will keep me alive longer... so they can keep using me for models... oh my god, we're all slaves to this greed! the greed to live. Breathing is greedy, & we're all breathing. No more hate.
But there's my rant for greed of listing meaningless opinions...
Rasmus, you say you're a freelancer so I'm assuming you've done some freelance contracts in the past. I'd treat it like that. Since it started as a personal project and thus didn't have multiple revisions and external art direction and such, and you don't need to budget for those things, you'll probably wind up offering lower than what you normally would charge.
So basically figure out an hourly wage you'd like, multiply that by the number of hours spent on the asset, add some additional time for getting it set up with their engine. Season with rights management (you retain rights to the work and derivatives - lower price, if they get the source assets set up as an example scene - higher price, etc).
I'm kind of assuming this is the large sewer/tunnel scene you have that you posted a while back, as that would be a great example for an engine. That has a ton of pieces that will probably need to be set up as individual static meshes, so there is probably a good chunk of time that will eat up to get it working in the engine.
If this is a really prominent engine and you are really hurting for work, bidding lower to ensure you get your name out is OK, but I can't see you doing this for very cheap.
I'm assuming this is all just gravy money and you don't need it to pay bills in two weeks, in which case you really ought to act as if you don't need it, and don't be overly flexible. Make an offer that is higher than what you would settle for, when they go "thats really much more expensive than we were expecting" ask them what they were expecting, if it is still above your "settle for" amount then negotiate up but don't be too greedy and spoil it. If it is a bit lower, then negotiate up to your settle price and if they won't go up to it then tell them to get lost politely.
Just like bidding for something on ebay you need to go into it with set goals in mind, or else you'll try to hard to "win" the "prize" and wind up getting yourself a shitty deal.
Thanks Rasmus... Please know that I in no way want to devalue your talents or deface your reputation.
I feel very strongly about the topic of IP and felt that the masses here were not tuned in to being able to understand Vito's comments. I took an extreme point of view in hopes of stepping away from the details for just a moment.
What you made, you're proud of. If you've been approached, someone obviously sees value in it also.
The artwork for the Obama campaign, that red white and blue work... it was done for free. The artist that did it is now making a lot of money, largely because of this contribution.
From what I've read in this thread, it seems to me that there may be a connection between the interest in your project and the fact it was built from passion.
There's a whole lot of "I" in the comments here... not much "we".... and I don't expect that will change any day soon. So long as we embrace the current system for our own needs, we make sure the system keeps on serving those who are currently abusing it. I can't change anything. I'm not even sure if we can. However, I know I would try if we were working together.
I do hope everyone finds the wealth, success, and reputation you desire.