Toony Style Next gen
polycounter lvl 17
This is often something ive been working on lately....but I cant figure out the right approaches or ideas to this...
ok what I mean by toony style next gen is game models that have a more painterly look to it but still show there normals + spec maps clear as day.
in example
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=62429&page=2
or in example neoxs models for airborn
Currently im working with a model that is mostly hand painted
(Can be found here http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=62867 )
The robot model has all its normals pre baked before I did any of its painting.
I wanted to do influence styles that were similar to team fortress but more painted versus more flat colored.
I noticed that in the above link, the horse/demon model is just a simple normal/diffuse/ spec map.
When I go about making a spec map (that is just a invert of my normal map with a overlay on my diffuse grayscaled) It looks overly plastic/toyish.
How is this look/approach achieved proper in the above links?
Is this special rendering abilities/ shader driven? And if it is shader driven what is the base characteristics I would need to look into , to get the right look of it? (asside from pointing me to the team fortress shader again..)
I still want shadows and such to effect it but I would like if I were playing with the spec levels etc it would look more brighter with its diffuse versus like shiney plastic.
Perhaps I am over looking a crucial step or going about this the wrong matter? I can post screens of the model im currently working with if it helps as well.
Also im still using max 9 (yes 9, not 2009) could this be a issue as well?
other examples of what I was thinking "brutal legend" being another prime example.
Thanks in advance!
ok what I mean by toony style next gen is game models that have a more painterly look to it but still show there normals + spec maps clear as day.
in example
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=62429&page=2
or in example neoxs models for airborn
Currently im working with a model that is mostly hand painted
(Can be found here http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=62867 )
The robot model has all its normals pre baked before I did any of its painting.
I wanted to do influence styles that were similar to team fortress but more painted versus more flat colored.
I noticed that in the above link, the horse/demon model is just a simple normal/diffuse/ spec map.
When I go about making a spec map (that is just a invert of my normal map with a overlay on my diffuse grayscaled) It looks overly plastic/toyish.
How is this look/approach achieved proper in the above links?
Is this special rendering abilities/ shader driven? And if it is shader driven what is the base characteristics I would need to look into , to get the right look of it? (asside from pointing me to the team fortress shader again..)
I still want shadows and such to effect it but I would like if I were playing with the spec levels etc it would look more brighter with its diffuse versus like shiney plastic.
Perhaps I am over looking a crucial step or going about this the wrong matter? I can post screens of the model im currently working with if it helps as well.
Also im still using max 9 (yes 9, not 2009) could this be a issue as well?
other examples of what I was thinking "brutal legend" being another prime example.
Thanks in advance!
Replies
write the guy an email with a link to this board
Is this special rendering abilities/ shader driven? And if it is shader driven what is the base characteristics I would need to look into , to get the right look of it? (asside from pointing me to the team fortress shader again..)
Pretty sure I wrote that because Im NOT trying to make a team fortress shader....
Anywho so this is the model with just 100 % self illuminated
and with spec and normal applied
As you can see with the colors miles different from one another
(neox I have bugged you in the past about creating this kinda shader when I was working on my street fighter 4 shader. But thats not exactly what im trying to do for this model, Im trying to figure out the general pipeline for models to be brighter/ painter influenced heavy with the use of normals/spec maps as well.)
If it is shader driven im trying to figure out the bases of the shader I would need to look into, im trying to develop a general style for this indie game im working on which means I would need to write it into the game engine.
I hope this makes sense
1 would be a simple black white ramp thats a blin term shadin
2 is harder celshading
3 is a older version of the airborn ramp, so if you tweak the ramp as you need it youll definitely get better results
In the case of Rory's DW4 model he could probably turn off the normal map and not much would be lost.
I think using a fresnel/falloff effect on the normal map similar to neox's unreal shader (but do it with shaderFX) would probably put you in closer. But the diffuse is too soft and wishy washy to make much of an impact. Hard brushes, less fuzzy detail and blend when you need to instead of soft rounded brushes?
The toon shader in 3dsmax has a stepping feature. You assign a bright diffuse, and a dark (along with a normal map) and it steps between the two, kind of like Neox is suggesting.
first, export to .ase, import into ue3, and check how your textures look there with their shaders.
second, try shaderfx within max.
http://www.luxinia.de/download/arttools/GenericIBL_1-3.fx
as almighty gir stated, use shader fx its free and pretty much the same as unreals material editor, sure its different here and there but the basis is the same
This is also all kinds of wrong :
Why would you want to start off your spec that way? If it's supposed to not look like plastic, and be matte instead, well just paint your spec map black.
And if you need some highlights, simply get familiar with 2d paint/color theory : paint a colored sphere in photoshop. Select the main color. use a brighter value of the color to paint the highlight -> it will look like dead plastic crap. Add some blue in there, some color shift (it doesn't even need to be brigher!!) -> great looking shade. Then apply that kind of theory to your spec maps, and they'll look great. Also it's all a matter of contrast. Bright spec map everywhere will always look like junk. You need contrast in shinyness to make the shiny spots juicy, and the matte spots sexy. Check out cool devices around you, the sexy looking ones are often the ones juxtaposing matte and shiny material properties side by side.
Gluck!
If this is how you think you should make a specular map, then I think you have more basic things you should try to understand before you get on to different types of shader...
Step 1: Figure out what a specular map is for...
Step 2: Figure out how the colours of the specular map create that result...
Step 3: Make a specular map.
Right now it sounds like you don't know what a specular map is even for, or what it's meant to represent, if that's how you're creating it.
Perhaps I didnt explain this well.I did a quick invert as a test (probably should have been more clear on this) Im debating on the proper ways to make a spec map for this kind of setup, once I can figure out the proper ways (wither to keep it all dark with some highlight parts, or all around shiney and have it read in a lower amount is another issue)
what im doing is getting into a newer version of max 2009 and starting to mess with shaders in both shader FX and hlsl based shaders pre written that I will tweak.that deal with ramp / ambients better.
The only reason I made a spec to begin with was for testing.Its really impossible to figure out how this will look until I can figure out the proper pipeline or rough workflow of this style of. When I saw Rory_M flats posted, his spec is overly bright for the most part so I copied that to see how it was done. obviously my results were not as natural as his.
in response I am now trying some test will completely near or almost totally dark materials with viewport shaders with half lamber/ ambient and then will tweak the ambient shades.
I will post screenshots a bit later tonight once I get something working..
(im sorry I was not clear earlier but like I said this workflow is what I care about)
Honestly just grab brice's BRDF for a simple and efficient setup. I think it works all the way down to max8. (best max ever?)
Ok diffuse is diffuse and normal is normal, paint your diffuse as you like and your normal do what you must.
Effects I played with / enabled/ changed here
Diffuse color = neutral gray .5,.5,.5
specular map is changed based on color/mood of game
(since for this model he will be in a dusk setting I gave the overall model a brown/redish color)
specular map (black/white scale) is treated as such but can be disabled for a overall color balance based off what colors were applied (think just default shiney material but with color)
Half Lamber Shading and playing with its power and intensity, as well as changing its ambient color to a more redish/brownish color to blend nicer
Fersernel with outside edges padded with a oranigsh color.
So it seems this workflow can now be treated a bit easier since now theres a way to test the different effects and how they effect the normal Flat textures.
Now the question is how to get this to work via game engines, I would need to find a way to export this out as a .FX shader with my settings so I can see how I would have to rewrite this/ figure it out in game engine terms.
Examples of what I mean.....if Im doing effects above that are not necessary in the look of this model let me know.
pior: Your examples of how to paint specs after doing my current tests will be in overall use once I figure out the last little bits.
Any who more examples
But as far as making it look painterly or cartoony, it was all in the diffuse. To make a character look painterly, is that you actually have to paint it that way. I'm sure there are shortcuts via shaders but that's what made sense to me.
If you're using shaderFX, it has a export FX option, its either under file or tools, I forget which.