In Web Design its like every job available expects you to know everything. If you attempt to specialize it is very hard to get a job. Every open position I see lists off every web technology they can find. If you're good at working with Flash, or you are highly proficient in table-less CSS design, you shouldn't also have to know how to program in PHP, ASP, Ajax, and be able to manage databases. It pisses me off how most comapnies assume a Web Designer needs to know absolutely everything about the web.
I know that feeling as I have a background in web and especially flash design as well.
But don't think its a bad thing in fact I believe this might save you at some day your job or offer you a better position. Because only the people that really know how the development goes are the most valuable persons in a company.
I had once a talk with a Ubisoft art director at a recruitment panel and she told me that even though such talents were rare (beeing able to do several fronts above just ok) they are in high demand.
The very same thoughts I heard from another professionals at a higher position - their thought was that they rather hire someone who can do a few fronts good as someone who is rather highly specialized in just 1 area but fails to understand the rest of the process.
But there is also another side to the story: I experienced for example for quite a long time a lecturing from other professors or people here on the university trying to explain me that eventually I would specialize in 1 area anyway and it would be better to find mine as early as possible. Its the drawer effect where people try to ditch you into a labeled drawer even though you are a mix of several things.
I personally don't feel like ANY school will make someone a decent artist. I am at AI and I see skill levels from absolute suck all the way to professional level talent.
All of these people will likely graduate and earn a degree.
I imagine westwood's biggest fault is that they gave these students degrees. If these 67 students that are suing the school had any talent at all they would have jobs. The real problem is that schools like this give hack artists degrees. Surely there's got to be SOME talented artists coming out of this school?
All of these people will likely graduate and earn a degree.
I imagine westwood's biggest fault is that they gave these students degrees. If these 67 students that are suing the school had any talent at all they would have jobs. The real problem is that schools like this give hack artists degrees. Surely there's got to be SOME talented artists coming out of this school?
That's a very good point. Most industry insiders I've spoken with all agree that the quality of an applicant's portfolio is their first priority. And the more artist-focused the position they are applying for, the more this matters. If these students have the completed work to strut their stuff, they should be finding jobs. In most more traditional colleges, the professors push their students to deliver the goods. If you don't, your grades suffer. (something that a potential employer can check up on)
As to the over-generalization of Web Design, I suppose I should count my blessings. As annoying as such expectations can be, they have also pushed me to learn a lot more than I probably would have. When I graduated from college, I could use basic Dreamweaver, and a little bit of Flash. Now I know advanced HTML, CSS, C#, very advanced Flash, Actionscript 3.0, ColdFusion, PHP, and I'm even picking up MySQL. The never-ending march of progress.
jesus christ $34000 for about a year and a half of classes?? Thats completely insane, absolutely criminal. I did some new media bachelor's degree in college and thought that was pretty useless, but at least i didn't have to pay much for it because my country are socialist pigs
jesus christ $34000 for about a year and a half of classes?? Thats completely insane, absolutely criminal. I did some new media bachelor's degree in college and thought that was pretty useless, but at least i didn't have to pay much for it because my country are socialist pigs
I was always under the assumption that's normal in the US, at least for some people
You know. Maybe its the "for profit" schools more than anything this speaks about. The student isnt the value of these school. Its the money they bring to raise stock value.
So maybe a way to look at this for people thinking of schooling. Look for programs that are not based on a profit ideal. Profit and education can be at odds.
Don't get me wrong, places like Digipen, Think Tank, Gnomon are good, but they are more the exceptions. That, and I don't believe they offer public stock?
I was always under the assumption that's normal in the US, at least for some people
Noooooo...even some Ivy league schools don't charge that much for just a year's worth of education. Your average 4-year state-sponsored University in the U.S. charges much less, and there are plenty of scholarship opportunities for those. $34,000 USD for such a brief degree program is practically criminal.
Again we are faced with the quandary. If you are foolish enough to spring for a program like that, do you "deserve" to be swindled out of your hard-earned cash? But I suppose that's why lawsuits like this are permitted, so that some consequences can be brought to bear against swindlers.
In this day and age of widespread information accessibility, schools like this are woefully obselete.
Well getting a job in the health care industry should be easier than anywhere else provided you have the degree. This kind of crap happens way too often though, I hope the kids win, it's about the higher ed education system in the US gets reformed. There are way too many people with degrees that were not properly trained that have the piece of paper.
Westwood offered degrees in Healthcare as well so it's not a matter of talent in the art sense.
I'm glad I found polycount, but I actually found it through AI. Fortunately my debt is 20% less than everyone else's from the school (they offer a tuition discount to veterans thank god) but I gotta say one thing for AI
whether it's a great school or not (IMO the San Diego AI is great for game art) I simply wouldn't have learned this stuff on my own. I needed to pay someone to hold the flame under my ass for a few years lol
and I got payed to have someone hold that flame under my ass for a year... oh i guess im paying with the high taxes now... I hope the students lead with false light can get some money back. It truly must suck spending so much money and more imporantly time to get so little in return...
I was kind of in the same boat as Pope Adam when I went to AI. I was in school along side some of the guys here (GameDev, Moody, Cojax, etc.) and each of us stood out in that we ate slept and breathed 3d.
God knows we weren't learning much of anything from the teachers. Most of us were sharing knowledge with each other, scouring the internet for what we could find, and helping each other out when we could.
When I got out of the Marines, I didn't know anything about anything when it came to games. When I started school I struggled to grasp even the basics of the programs, having not even touched Photoshop when I started.
I thought I was pretty good 2-3 years in, and when I went to GDC some time before I graduated I got a real eye-opener for where I stood as far as the quality of my portfolio was.
Did I learn much from the school itself? Not a ton. But I would have never met the people I did, or even knew where to start or what to build off of when I went. I honestly fell for the idea of "multi-skilled > Specialized". In our student orientation they even said that that was the goal of the school.
Looking back now I am obviously armed with a LOT more knowledge of what you need to show to succeed in the industry...but the #1 problem with schools like these is that the people determining the curriculum and the majority of the career service and recruiting people have absolutely no idea what a successful game artist needs to know, and let alone how to tailor a degree program around that focus.
It will be a long time before we see schools like AI or Westwood that give a bachelors degree in JUST game art or animation or game design, that don't ALSO require a bunch of courses that are probably not worth your time. Let alone a quality faculty that has the time to actually teach all of the required classes. The majority of these classes are taught by old-horses that still have a considerable amount of learning to do to catch up with current-generation techniques that they didn't just read in a magazine or an online tutorial.
I'm stuck with a boatload of loans and a degree that doesn't have a huge amount of merit in the industry, but I also know I wouldn't be here had I not gone. It's the love/hate relation that any of us who have gone to school are stuck with. Bottom line, you get what you put into schools like this.
Anyone who thinks they are going to get everything they need out of these schools without putting in an extra 110% outside of class is fooling themselves
Not so much insight, so much as dumb-luck, I stumbled across it a few years ago looking for Unreal character models. Tried to getting into 3D at age 15, but the process just kind of flew over my pre-pubescent head, now I'm back with a vengeance...err... where am I going with this?
I was enrolled in AI for about two weeks. I got some feedback from the Polycount community and got the shit outta there. Now I'm learning for free, thanks to the magic of the internets, and awesome people like those here. I feel like working around peers would be useful, and it would be a great way to make connections, I miss not having classmates to pal around with, but it didn't seem like anybody there really hung out together or anything at that school. I know I was there for a short time but it gave me a sinking feeling in my stomach the whole time "I'm paying 450 bucks an hour for this? am I just digging my own pit?" while guy next to me is drawing stick figures, and the teachers act like I should be in this class? There's no real addmitance exam, you give them money and your in, because that's all they want.
I also felt really out of place there, a lot of what I'd call "rich city kids" and people who constantly wanted to tell me what in there life inspired them, and when they asked what inspired me, all I had was "I just really really like to make cool shit" So maybe it was easier for me to leave. But mainly it was feed back from the thread I made. I think it was titled "Am I stupid, serious question" or something.
Someone holding a flame under my ass would be great though. I just keep thinking I could do something that doesn't feel like work for a living or get some shitty desk job, and slowly lose my mind.
I think a main problem is these courses are so new, whos to say whats really up to standards?
I think a main problem is these courses are so new, whos to say whats really up to standards?
Well there are some schools here in Sweden doing it right. The schools that are good work closely with game companies, up to date tech, simulate as close as possible the work environment of being in a team and creating a game. By having companies help out with the curriculum they have a chance to make sure what the students learn is tweaked to what kind of people they need later. Then part of the education time is a internship period.
Playgroundsquad is one of those schools. http://edgenordic.futurenet.com/
on page 24-25 there is a interview with my back then teacher Ivar.
Some other intresting articles in that magazine also.
There's no real addmitance exam, you give them money and your in, because that's all they want.
This is really telling. An institute that is supposedly focused on "Art" should have some manner of criteria for entry. Although some would argue otherwise, talent is actually a prerequisite for a successful artistic career. Anyone who can obtain a degree in art without actually having any artistic talent is clearly going to the wrong school. At my college, you would fail your art classes if you were not able to noticeably improve the quality of your work.
I think a main problem is these courses are so new, whos to say whats really up to standards?
Part of the problem with this is that so few universities seriously approach game design in an academic sense. If all you focus on is the technical tools, you are very much missing the point. There ought to be classes focused on game theory, logical mechanics, prototyping, writing design documents, creative storytelling, etc... These are all subjects that would fit well into exisisting university curriculums.
And for the love of Pete, people! If you ever expect to succeed in game "design", you need to take some bloody math classes!
It defiantly sounds like some schools are on top of their game, (but I don't live near any of them) it seems like the less a school advertises the better it is, but at the same time it makes it harder to actually find out about it.
The staff at AI seemed to have the attitude of, this course is new but getting better, therefore its ok to shoot you guys through as guinea pigs, give us any suggestions and we will maybe put them in place by the time the next round of subjects is ready.
I agree with Richard, you need skill that will spill over into any kind o medium. Ypu wouldn't take how to use a chizel 101. I are fails at maths, that's why I'm taking some classes at a community collage. WAY cheaper.
I can relate, having gone to an AI. Glad to see at least one of these types of schools getting what they deserve.
Man did I think the same thing. 28,000 a year to self teach myself because the faculty was either terrible to too jaded to do anything. In Philadelphia the networking wasn't even worth it. When I think back to how everything panned out to me attending, it's a very regretful time.
I remember the day I told my dad that a college degree wouldnt do much for me in terms of being a game artist and getting a job, and he argued about it for a long time, then one day Timmy got a lil jobby and all I had to say was "suck on deeeeeeez nuts"
Again, like I said before. It's good for some and it's bad for others. Really bad for some.
I'd have never learned 3d without ai. Just didn't know how to do it. Even if i knew about polycount before i went to school I still wouldn't have even tried it... I'd have lurked around the forums and got discouraged and quit lol
No offense Jester, maybe you do know something about 3d, but you sure have a poor sense of tact.
I went to Ai and while it's Undoubtedly overpirced I happened to go to a school that had a majority of great teachers with only a couple incompetent lackeys of our universally hated department head on the payroll. The financial aid department was run by chimps who learned to speak English but I digress...
I saw everything from talented people who complained to much to those who were just there for a McDegree to a guy who's published in two Exotique books who didn't feel he was ready come graduation time. In the end the onis is on you to work at becoming a better artist.
Man, if I could go around and just shut down every bad college or university course I have seen that was run by academics with no actual industry experience I would.
I feel for the kids learning 3 years of rubbish (oh, you know java and pagemaker? Great - thats going to help making my environments) that they could replace with six months to a year of study and hard showreel construction in their spare time.
Look, if your a 3D artist with experience- do everyone a favor. Call up a local course and see if they would like you to go pay a visit, perhaps meet and greet the students or do a little chat session. Get involved. Make suggestions. I got involved with a few and it was a really rewarding experience.
I met a couple of people who where theives and should be shot- (I bet they are wondering who I am talking about) - and a couple of maniacs who where oissed at the industry for not hiring them and wanted to raise an army of angry little students- but on the whole the teachers WANT this kind of contact- and its all groovy.
Oh hey, if your a student reading this little rant - check to see if your course is supported by a games company - thats a good indicator that the curriculum at least will cover the basics. Courses shouldnt cost $$$$$$$$ - but they do cost a fair amount of $$$- so be prepared for that. I actually emptied bins to raise the money for mine, so was very annoyed when it turned out to be a turkey. You could, theoretically get a lot out of buying a heap of training DVDs instead of the course- but what you wont make is a bunch of like-minded mates who will give you props in the industry later and you miss out on critical feedback and working in teams (VERY IMPORTANT)- doing a course is a great opportunity even if its a shite course.
Replies
But don't think its a bad thing in fact I believe this might save you at some day your job or offer you a better position. Because only the people that really know how the development goes are the most valuable persons in a company.
I had once a talk with a Ubisoft art director at a recruitment panel and she told me that even though such talents were rare (beeing able to do several fronts above just ok) they are in high demand.
The very same thoughts I heard from another professionals at a higher position - their thought was that they rather hire someone who can do a few fronts good as someone who is rather highly specialized in just 1 area but fails to understand the rest of the process.
But there is also another side to the story: I experienced for example for quite a long time a lecturing from other professors or people here on the university trying to explain me that eventually I would specialize in 1 area anyway and it would be better to find mine as early as possible. Its the drawer effect where people try to ditch you into a labeled drawer even though you are a mix of several things.
All of these people will likely graduate and earn a degree.
I imagine westwood's biggest fault is that they gave these students degrees. If these 67 students that are suing the school had any talent at all they would have jobs. The real problem is that schools like this give hack artists degrees. Surely there's got to be SOME talented artists coming out of this school?
That's a very good point. Most industry insiders I've spoken with all agree that the quality of an applicant's portfolio is their first priority. And the more artist-focused the position they are applying for, the more this matters. If these students have the completed work to strut their stuff, they should be finding jobs. In most more traditional colleges, the professors push their students to deliver the goods. If you don't, your grades suffer. (something that a potential employer can check up on)
As to the over-generalization of Web Design, I suppose I should count my blessings. As annoying as such expectations can be, they have also pushed me to learn a lot more than I probably would have. When I graduated from college, I could use basic Dreamweaver, and a little bit of Flash. Now I know advanced HTML, CSS, C#, very advanced Flash, Actionscript 3.0, ColdFusion, PHP, and I'm even picking up MySQL. The never-ending march of progress.
So maybe a way to look at this for people thinking of schooling. Look for programs that are not based on a profit ideal. Profit and education can be at odds.
Don't get me wrong, places like Digipen, Think Tank, Gnomon are good, but they are more the exceptions. That, and I don't believe they offer public stock?
Noooooo...even some Ivy league schools don't charge that much for just a year's worth of education. Your average 4-year state-sponsored University in the U.S. charges much less, and there are plenty of scholarship opportunities for those. $34,000 USD for such a brief degree program is practically criminal.
Again we are faced with the quandary. If you are foolish enough to spring for a program like that, do you "deserve" to be swindled out of your hard-earned cash? But I suppose that's why lawsuits like this are permitted, so that some consequences can be brought to bear against swindlers.
In this day and age of widespread information accessibility, schools like this are woefully obselete.
Westwood offered degrees in Healthcare as well so it's not a matter of talent in the art sense.
I'm glad I found polycount, but I actually found it through AI. Fortunately my debt is 20% less than everyone else's from the school (they offer a tuition discount to veterans thank god) but I gotta say one thing for AI
whether it's a great school or not (IMO the San Diego AI is great for game art) I simply wouldn't have learned this stuff on my own. I needed to pay someone to hold the flame under my ass for a few years lol
God knows we weren't learning much of anything from the teachers. Most of us were sharing knowledge with each other, scouring the internet for what we could find, and helping each other out when we could.
When I got out of the Marines, I didn't know anything about anything when it came to games. When I started school I struggled to grasp even the basics of the programs, having not even touched Photoshop when I started.
I thought I was pretty good 2-3 years in, and when I went to GDC some time before I graduated I got a real eye-opener for where I stood as far as the quality of my portfolio was.
Did I learn much from the school itself? Not a ton. But I would have never met the people I did, or even knew where to start or what to build off of when I went. I honestly fell for the idea of "multi-skilled > Specialized". In our student orientation they even said that that was the goal of the school.
Looking back now I am obviously armed with a LOT more knowledge of what you need to show to succeed in the industry...but the #1 problem with schools like these is that the people determining the curriculum and the majority of the career service and recruiting people have absolutely no idea what a successful game artist needs to know, and let alone how to tailor a degree program around that focus.
It will be a long time before we see schools like AI or Westwood that give a bachelors degree in JUST game art or animation or game design, that don't ALSO require a bunch of courses that are probably not worth your time. Let alone a quality faculty that has the time to actually teach all of the required classes. The majority of these classes are taught by old-horses that still have a considerable amount of learning to do to catch up with current-generation techniques that they didn't just read in a magazine or an online tutorial.
I'm stuck with a boatload of loans and a degree that doesn't have a huge amount of merit in the industry, but I also know I wouldn't be here had I not gone. It's the love/hate relation that any of us who have gone to school are stuck with. Bottom line, you get what you put into schools like this.
Anyone who thinks they are going to get everything they need out of these schools without putting in an extra 110% outside of class is fooling themselves
Not so much insight, so much as dumb-luck, I stumbled across it a few years ago looking for Unreal character models. Tried to getting into 3D at age 15, but the process just kind of flew over my pre-pubescent head, now I'm back with a vengeance...err... where am I going with this?
I was enrolled in AI for about two weeks. I got some feedback from the Polycount community and got the shit outta there. Now I'm learning for free, thanks to the magic of the internets, and awesome people like those here. I feel like working around peers would be useful, and it would be a great way to make connections, I miss not having classmates to pal around with, but it didn't seem like anybody there really hung out together or anything at that school. I know I was there for a short time but it gave me a sinking feeling in my stomach the whole time "I'm paying 450 bucks an hour for this? am I just digging my own pit?" while guy next to me is drawing stick figures, and the teachers act like I should be in this class? There's no real addmitance exam, you give them money and your in, because that's all they want.
I also felt really out of place there, a lot of what I'd call "rich city kids" and people who constantly wanted to tell me what in there life inspired them, and when they asked what inspired me, all I had was "I just really really like to make cool shit" So maybe it was easier for me to leave. But mainly it was feed back from the thread I made. I think it was titled "Am I stupid, serious question" or something.
Someone holding a flame under my ass would be great though. I just keep thinking I could do something that doesn't feel like work for a living or get some shitty desk job, and slowly lose my mind.
I think a main problem is these courses are so new, whos to say whats really up to standards?
Well there are some schools here in Sweden doing it right. The schools that are good work closely with game companies, up to date tech, simulate as close as possible the work environment of being in a team and creating a game. By having companies help out with the curriculum they have a chance to make sure what the students learn is tweaked to what kind of people they need later. Then part of the education time is a internship period.
Playgroundsquad is one of those schools.
http://edgenordic.futurenet.com/
on page 24-25 there is a interview with my back then teacher Ivar.
Some other intresting articles in that magazine also.
This is really telling. An institute that is supposedly focused on "Art" should have some manner of criteria for entry. Although some would argue otherwise, talent is actually a prerequisite for a successful artistic career. Anyone who can obtain a degree in art without actually having any artistic talent is clearly going to the wrong school. At my college, you would fail your art classes if you were not able to noticeably improve the quality of your work.
Part of the problem with this is that so few universities seriously approach game design in an academic sense. If all you focus on is the technical tools, you are very much missing the point. There ought to be classes focused on game theory, logical mechanics, prototyping, writing design documents, creative storytelling, etc... These are all subjects that would fit well into exisisting university curriculums.
And for the love of Pete, people! If you ever expect to succeed in game "design", you need to take some bloody math classes!
The staff at AI seemed to have the attitude of, this course is new but getting better, therefore its ok to shoot you guys through as guinea pigs, give us any suggestions and we will maybe put them in place by the time the next round of subjects is ready.
I agree with Richard, you need skill that will spill over into any kind o medium. Ypu wouldn't take how to use a chizel 101. I are fails at maths, that's why I'm taking some classes at a community collage. WAY cheaper.
Man did I think the same thing. 28,000 a year to self teach myself because the faculty was either terrible to too jaded to do anything. In Philadelphia the networking wasn't even worth it. When I think back to how everything panned out to me attending, it's a very regretful time.
Lmao, nice!
You guys are really making me start to question my decision to go to an AI, especially when I'm so close to finishing
Dude, I know exactly how you feel, except I was only there for 2 weeks.
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=60320
I regret having read that thread
Dude, I'm sorry.
I'd have never learned 3d without ai. Just didn't know how to do it. Even if i knew about polycount before i went to school I still wouldn't have even tried it... I'd have lurked around the forums and got discouraged and quit lol
but i'm kindof a hack anyway so yeah :P
I went to Ai and while it's Undoubtedly overpirced I happened to go to a school that had a majority of great teachers with only a couple incompetent lackeys of our universally hated department head on the payroll. The financial aid department was run by chimps who learned to speak English but I digress...
I saw everything from talented people who complained to much to those who were just there for a McDegree to a guy who's published in two Exotique books who didn't feel he was ready come graduation time. In the end the onis is on you to work at becoming a better artist.
[ame]
Westwood though, that always seemed shady...as does anywhere that offers FREE game demos (as opposed to those demos you have to pay for).
I feel for the kids learning 3 years of rubbish (oh, you know java and pagemaker? Great - thats going to help making my environments) that they could replace with six months to a year of study and hard showreel construction in their spare time.
Look, if your a 3D artist with experience- do everyone a favor. Call up a local course and see if they would like you to go pay a visit, perhaps meet and greet the students or do a little chat session. Get involved. Make suggestions. I got involved with a few and it was a really rewarding experience.
I met a couple of people who where theives and should be shot- (I bet they are wondering who I am talking about) - and a couple of maniacs who where oissed at the industry for not hiring them and wanted to raise an army of angry little students- but on the whole the teachers WANT this kind of contact- and its all groovy.
Oh hey, if your a student reading this little rant - check to see if your course is supported by a games company - thats a good indicator that the curriculum at least will cover the basics. Courses shouldnt cost $$$$$$$$ - but they do cost a fair amount of $$$- so be prepared for that. I actually emptied bins to raise the money for mine, so was very annoyed when it turned out to be a turkey. You could, theoretically get a lot out of buying a heap of training DVDs instead of the course- but what you wont make is a bunch of like-minded mates who will give you props in the industry later and you miss out on critical feedback and working in teams (VERY IMPORTANT)- doing a course is a great opportunity even if its a shite course.