Showing NDA work when applying for a job...
polycounter lvl 17
Whats the consensus here?
You've got some good work just waiting to see the light of day, but it's being held up by a release date. Posting it on your website is an obvious NO but what about sending it to a potential employer? Is there some universally accepted etiquette for this?
You've got some good work just waiting to see the light of day, but it's being held up by a release date. Posting it on your website is an obvious NO but what about sending it to a potential employer? Is there some universally accepted etiquette for this?
Replies
What if you got laid off, developers lose financing, etc. And they own ip rights but as for when the project comes into closure or shipping is unknown.
I'd include personal art from the unfinished/unshipped project for public viewing.
But if still employed...that's pretty risky thing to do.
William Stout, in his Gnomon lecture, said that he always makes it a point before a project that he gets the right to show his stuff as long as it promotes himself. So if you're a freelancer that's probably one clause you can negotiate beforehand (maybe like you can show what you did but not specify for who or what, or something like that).
Second, is ask your employer for permission.
Third is yeah, people tend to do this, if you're looking for a job and your only recent work is under NDA, show it privately. This really is not the correct thing to do, but many people do it anyway.
that way you can still show off your work, and impress the future employer
I think this is effective if the ship jumper goes into a conference or workshop and approach recruiters or lead artists directly with a physical folio in hand (print, laptop).
The other consideration I can think of is the potential employer's interpretation. Of course they may appreciate the glimpse and the work, but it may give them concerns about your respect for the NDA...who's to say you wouldnt do the same if they hired you.
I guess it comes down to what your approach is.
Simple fact is that you've proven that you :
1) Do not respect the legal ramifications of your actions.
2) Will not protect any media my company develops.
3) Are not trustworthy with company IP/Media.
I'm actually extremely surprised how many of you think this is "OKAY". If you work at company X, who is known for making a certain game or franchise, and you show pieces from an upcoming game from company X to company Y, you've just given another studio (potential competition) a heads-up as to what the other studio is making/doing. Lawyers would have a field day with you, and rightfully so.
This.
I don't even have industry experience and this is 1 +1 = 2 tier of obvious, what the hell.
My response to this is, the applicant didn't do a good job to represent himself and showcase his skill to you the potential employer.
It's illogical to confess you're less than positive attributes and flaws during an interview. So why bother revealing your own art is under NDA. If you think there's a chance they'll question about the project you can just say it's unfinished and leave it at that. You're not a fucking criminal for using your own art for valid personal interests.
Of course situations varies. Ask permission first. But if there's a rift between you the artist and your higher ups and your folio is totally dependent on nda locked work, I'd risk using it.
basically, you're held by an agreement you've either specifically signed or is part and parcel of your employment contract
you won't know what the details of this agreement are until you read it, or ask someone who knows
if you want to break this agreement, then hell, knock yourself out. The consequences of this will be written down for you, or again, ask someone who knows
if you don't want to break the agreement, don't.
tomorrow : how to go about your daily business WITHOUT going on a kill-crazy rampage with a machete. The details will blow your mind
Unless you SIGNED A LEGAL DOCUMENT PLEDGING NOT TO USE THAT ART FOR PERSONAL INTERESTS or something.
but that's silliness.
There are exceptions, if the game in questions is very high profile/very similar to the games of the other studio and little to nothing has been shown/announced about it in the press, I would not show anything.
So, in your mind, if Bungie was making a Halo RTS and nobody knew about it, then you show Halo Units at RTS res in your folio, along with your resume clearly pointing out that you worked at bungie, it would not tip other studios or publishers off to the business plans at bungie?
There is a reason you sign an NDA, and it's to SPECIFICALLY KEEP YOU FROM SHOWING THE ART TO OTHER PEOPLE.
agreed
Woah, slow down dude. What i said was no digital trail, specifically because this would take the risk of an image leak out of your hands. I am NOT suggesting irresponsible distribution as long as it cant be traced back to you.
The idea here is to understand if there is an ethical way for an artist to showcase work that is caught in the system. The company has rights to the art assets, correct, but not the artist's skillset, and the only way to shawcase that is by showing work.
You do bring up a specific example that could affect competitor strategies, true. But I wouldnt consider it a very sound business strategy to change gears based on a single portfolio submission. In addition, say you do include those halo unit models...who's to say it isnt fan art? Unless you tell them it's from a project, it's all just speculation.
No, it isn't. If you're fine doing something illegal, go for it, but if you NDA says not to show it it's that simple.
Why not just make other art? if you're capable of producing work of X quality that belongs to company A, why not make art of X quality that belongs to you to show off?
I wouldn't show them publicly.
But I didn't realise it was taken in a way that's as bad as some of you are suggesting.
:S
I'd also reviewed a few portfolios from cancelled projects still under NDA, and no one really questioned the material.
Yes, absolutely people have done this and will continue to do this.
Is this smart?
Absolutely not, you need to be very aware of the consequences. Showing off printed work, or showing off a digital copy doesn't make any difference, its still just as much a breach of contract either way.
Why would someone do this?
Well, there are likely plenty of reasons, i would say the biggest reason people do it comes from being laid off/fired without any sort of notice, leaving them with very little time to get their shit in order and find a new job. These sort of situations are very common, and if the only work you have to show for yourself the last few years is under NDA, its pretty reasonable to see why someone would want to do this.
Now the better question is, how do you avoid dealing with this situation all-together?
Well, you can do a few things. First of, when you get hired, figure out what sort of rights you have when it comes to showing your work. The last place i worked at was pretty lenient on this, as long as it wasn't story/gameplay specific stuff. If possible, negotiate for the right to display your work(sometimes all this would mean is asking permission to use it).
Be prepared for this situation, work on personally work, keep an updated non-work portfolio going so you'll never be stressed out worry about these sort of things in the first place.
Or, if you're still working for said studio, and thinking about applying elsewhere, take some of your personal time and set it out specifically to do work that you'll be able to show publicly.
You could be facing serious legal trouble messing around with this stuff, so most importantly, read your NDA's, if you do not understand them, HIRE A LAWYER THAT DOES.
They are serious business. They're not the internet
Controlling public perception and the flow of information, especially information to competitors or potential competitors, is vital to any business. Leaking art to either the public (unknowing or unwittingly) or to other companies (and even if they make games on a different genre/platform/planet than you, they have friends who work at your competition) can frequently lead to serious problems.
And, of course, you're demonstrating that you don't really give a shit about NDAs. Which doesn't reflect well on you.
Different circumstances could change the impact of showing it, but there is no time where breaking that NDA is going to really benefit you.
-If it's a cancelled project you're much more able to show it privately online.
-If it's yet to be released and you can't put food on your table I'd do what Adam suggested and print it and then show it privately only.
imo
Answer: You will receive a cease and desist letter telling you to remove the offending images from your portfolio. If you comply, it will not go any further.
It is better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission and be denied.
However, if you are really that concerned than do what others have suggested an offer to show hard copies of unreleased works upon request. The reality is, I have heard of at least one company turning down an applicant because they are showing unreleased works in their portfolio; the whole "would they do this to us?" argument. On the flip side of that, I once showed up to an interview where a prospective employer was irritated that I did not bring hard copies of unreleased works that were not presented in my online portfolio. Personally, I firmly believe that showing unreleased works is a standard practice in the industry and that the former is the exception, not the rule.
if i were an employer, and someone showed me some work that they've done, even if they hadn't outright said "this was done under NDA". i might still have an idea where the actual concept came from, being a games developer i'd probably have my fingers in a few pies, i'd want to know what the competition are up to. and if someone showed me something that i thought was under NDA, then fuck employing that son of a bitch, he's untrustworthy with my ideas.
With my first project (which has been officially released and has been out for well over a year), I still can't show the work I did for it, unless they are screenshots taken from the retail build of the game. I was forbidden to take Maya screenshots or in-game screenshots from a PC debug build.
Yes, people still do this and EQ's post pretty much says it all, but it doesn't make it right. So if you plan on doing it, do it at your own risk.
-caseyjones
its completely silly to even think this, unless you have some special contract most of the time, as soon as you get paid to make art it belongs to whoever paid you to make it. its not like a fencing company can come buld you a nice patio deck then feel they have the right to come and have a bbq on it whenever they want, because they made it its their deck.
the skinny of this is "bad form and most likely against the law" check with your employer, and rember even if a manager says its ok, its still not impossible for someone higher up to money rape you because of it, well unless the nda says its cool to show with manager permision
The correct answer is never do this. let them use their imagination.
but it's up to the company to decide what is a secret, and what isn't.
you sign an NDA for a reason, to protect them. by going against that, not only are you risking their business, but also your own neck for being untrustworthy.
you might think to yourself "naaaaw they won't mind if i show that". but you never know.
Thought NDA was intended to stop you from breaching this agreement..
I can see how new titles with long dev cycles would live and die by it though...it's a high risk venture and unless you can control the dissemination of your media, you may pre-hype yourself due to careless art shots going out.
Having gauged all these responses, id probably side with playing it safe and keeping those pieces out. The chance that the potential employer takes offense is just another possible trip up that could be avoided.
just make sure you do some kick ass personal work, show that instead.
In terms of doing kickass personal work instead, I've been asked point blank to show stuff that would be covered under NDA because they wanted more than 'just personal work'.
If someone came and showed me something that was under NDA in the hopes of getting a job, they wouldnt get hired.