Need to update my detail sculpting abilities. Any advice?

John Warner

hey folks. I need some advice in terms of really getting my sculpting up to the next level.

i started modeling with low poly stuff, and moved to high poly from there. i think i've got a pretty good sense for broad shapes and nice pleasing mass.... but when it comes down to smaller shapes and fine detail i.... i.. i think i suck ass.

I know that's vauge, but I'm also interested in sparking a discussion about where you see your art, where you have trouble, things you learned, stuff like that.

so yeah. just figured i'd throw that out there to see if anyone says "yeah! i've been there before.. read this:" or something like that.

any advice?

bugo

I am also like you, but we have already a base of the sculpt pretty well managed, we need just patience to get to the higher level I believe. Knowledge on how to use our alphas better maybe?

MM

yes i been there.
however, i rarely use any custom alphas, the ones i use are the ones that comes with the software.

in my opinion its more important to think scientifically when it comes to sculpting details.

whether its organic detail or non-organic detail i try to think of the environmental situation, the physical surface type, the gravitational effect on it, its density or thickness etc.

a good way to start understanding all these is to study real life and really observe it closely.

another thing i try to do is not go detail freak on every part of the model, its very important to have a good breathing space of subtle details and concentrated areas of high frequency details.

this way the eye can actually see the high freq detail much better.

Psixos

i'm so scared of sculpture, i don't know what to do

Kevin Johnstone

The best thing a modeller can do to improve is tackle the hard shapes for a while and stop trying to wing it with a whole design. People always hope to learn tricks from tutorials but the truth of it mostly is that it all comes down to brute force.

You can get around this by finding deco elements on buildings or functional machinery parts from an engine or similar and just trying to model that one shape.

Try and do a complicated cog shape with a giant screw recess in the center of the circular center of the cog, do it all in one piece. Shapes like this or a leaf shape or a shield shape with art nouveau flourishes at the end of the forms , again all in one piece, these are great shapes to learn how to do.

Just keep doing this, find diverse or integral forms to the type of designs you like to do, whether it is scifi or fantasy and build up your collection of known forms.

Try modelling them a 2nd time but take a different approach to modelling them, see which is faster, which is more portable visa bend of skew modifiers in max so you can work out the best way to do stretched or curved versions of that form.


Do this for a while and you will learn a lot more as you will always be outside of your comfort zone and learning new fundamental forms that you can apply to whatever design you next approach when you wing it.

This sort of routine impacts our design skills a lot and its helped me broaden my abilities more than pure design work. Maybe it will work for you too?

rooster

I reckon for specific advice you'll need some pics of your current sculpting, or maybe the sort of thing you're striving for
the obvious advice which pains everyone to hear (including myself), is practice

Psixos

I don't currently have any sculpture skills, but I think this piece from Benjamin Leitgeb, aka Selwy is the most incredible piece i've ever seen.

Neo_God

This is primarily for organic surfaces and character work, because that's what I know.

Observation and practice are pretty much the name of the game.

While I do think approaching detail in a scientific manner is really good exercise, I would also consider approaching artistically as well. The way the detail flows in the piece drawing your eyes around the surface off said work. I feel it would be best to find that happy medium, I mean we are artists not draftsmen...well some of us might be draftsmen.

Then if you want to get even more art-faggy, you can start thinking of the more meta-physical influences on the piece. This can add some depth to character, making them seem more life-like and less static. This could also be added to environment art. I know Brome always talks about back stories to his environments, about what went on there prior to the viewer seeing the presented piece. I'm not saying you need to create a back story for your work that is a novel's worth of detail, but simple consideration of it helps. This is all subtly that most really don't care about consciously, but in the end they appreciate it, even if they don't know why. (For some reason this idea warms my heart)

Subtly in detail is also good, like mentioned before by MM, I have the problem myself of enjoying the subtle details so much that I push them into the lime light making the piece just look noisy and overly detailed, I'm still working on toning it back. But these subtle details also mirror the same concept I mentioned before, for a finished piece they are important, yeah, average viewer won't take much notice to it, but they will however, recognize the lack of them.

To sum it up:

1.Observe and Practice
2.Consider your details in both a scientific and artistic manner
3.Think beyond the object to add depth
4.Things no one initially notice, count

This really might not be what other people agree with, we all have our ways, and I know there are people who couldn't give two shits and a fuck about some of the stuff, but you know, different strokes.

Psixos

I havent been able to overcome seeing form in a technical manner. I know when I look at a beautiful pice of art, its come from deep within the artist and should flow freely. I don't know what I'm trying to say, i can see and feel how it should be in my imagination but I can't work through the frustration of how this relates through my hands.

MM

i see art and science as the same. the reason something looks aesthetically beautiful or perfect to us is because we already have an impression of reality in our subconscious minds through generations of knowledge and when we see an art or an image our brain tries to process it by comparing it to all the information we already know. so when something looks aesthetically pleasing or beautiful its because the basic construction or the details or the colors or the lighting or any of those things somehow resemble something from physical world.
an art piece also becomes interesting when we learn how to combine different logic, like combining the colors of a flower or a plant with the skin texture of a crocodile. there are endless combination. both of those come from science and combined becomes art.

MoP

As Neo_God said - the key is observation and practice, and lots of both.

I don't see how sculpting "smaller shapes" can be any different to sculpting "big shapes"... zoom in? They're just shapes, the size is irrelevant.

I don't think there's such a thing as "detail sculpting", it's a matter of scope and focus. There's just sculpting, and making things detailed is a matter of patience and practice (or sneaky shortcuts/tricks like nice custom alphas/brushes) ... also a lot of the time you can learn to hint at detail instead of going a hyper-realistic route. Some small loose strokes, stippling or hatching that give the impression of detail and let the viewer construct the true detail in their imagination. Same as some painting techniques.

With regards to the more common types of "specific" detail (in organic sculpting it's generally wrinkles, folds, pores, skin or bone details) ... generally the best way to approach these is to find great reference pics (close-ups of old people's hands and faces), see how and why the skin folds and wrinkles around key areas, then do sculpt studies of those reference pics, or specific areas of them - try out different tools (either plain ol' sculpting brushes, or zany custom alphas, masking, whatever - anything that gets the job done and looks believable).
The organic stuff tends to be harder since it's so specific to surface/underlying structures of anatomy, and is rarely repetitive, tends to be very unique so you will have to take longer to make it look believable.

Detail for non-organic stuff tends to be easier since it's more often repetetive patterns or noisy surface texture. These are best tackled with custom brushes/alphas, overlays and masking. Also obvious targets for 3d-app tools like arrays, instancing, deforming shapes along splines etc. Then it becomes less about the organic studies and more about interesting patterns.

Basically at the end of the day it's just a matter of observing reference, doing sculpt studies or drawings/paintings, learning how the structures work... and then just zoom in.

(disclaimer: don't zoom too far in or else you will end up doing detail that nobody will ever see or care about, and at that point you're wasting time... in a production environment anyway)

Kevin Johnstone

Mop: Because when you make the smaller shape the whole design, you end up taking it further and learn the shape fully rather than creating the impression of that form.

Like speed painting vs more fine art level painting.

oXYnary

I still learning all the ins and outs. But I do have a background in traditional sculpture. So this might or might not help. Its like the same principle when you draw. You start with the larger shapes, and work your self down to the smaller. So at Sub-d 5, you work on the muscles, at sub-d 7 you work on the skin stretching (I pulled these sub-d out of my head, no reflection of reality).

Don't forget also, with high res modeling, you can always create the real fine detail afterwords as bumpmaps to integrate without going nuts. And as said, making alphas for those finer details makes it easier than doing without.

If this doesn't help, something that helped me on traditional work, which though wont be as useful for 3d. Is to feel the surface your modeling. Of course you wouldn't want to do this to a nude model, but I mean just try to sense what it would feel like to touch it. Even that haptic visualization can help you when modeling.

Marine

Might not be for you, but I prefer to just stop thinking and go for it. I don't like to break things up by digging out reference or fiddling about with custom brushes. Not the best way, or any way at all, to get something finished, but it's always fun.

Kevin Johnstone

Marine: I sometimes find that works for me too , especially when I hit a dry spell while modelling something where I'm trying to plan too much.
Sometimes nothing beats starting with a single quad and edge pulling until something cool appears

Jesse Moody

Gotta agree with Kevin on the creating a quad and start pulling edges until I get something interesting. I have started so many models just to do different shapes and forms to see how they will look. Nothing much ever comes of them as they are my form of a sketch book and I usually just delete them after but it really has helped me learn how to control my edges and create the shapes I desire.

John Warner

wow aweswome. thanks for all the responses. that helps a ton, and clarifies things for me a lot.

i dont have difficulty with poly modeling, for the most part. i should have been more specific. I'm more interested in anatomy, but i understand that ideas come from everywhere.. soo iii guess that last statement was pointless.

actually, the pic that Psixos posted is actually a damn good example of the level of detail that i'm trying to hit... a more full range of organic forms. one of the difficulties i find, especially for the face, is a lack of reference. there's tons of smooth, pretty face pictures out there, or pictures of old men with wrinkley faces, but i find it difficult to understand the smaller shapes that make up an average face, as i see them so rarely exadurated. the shapes that i HAVE seen i generally blatantly steel, as do a lot of 3d artists i think.

i think there are very common trends in a lot of sculpture, especially with the face. you've got those big bulbus shapes under the bottom lip that's common, the (whatsitcalled) fold that runs from the nose to the sides of the mouth.. etc etc etc.. a lot of the same stuff gets exadurated. I'm having a damn hard time finding reference that really helps me understand why something's there in the first place, so what to exadurate where isn't my bloody choice.

it was just pointed out to me by an offline friend that being a judgmental dick when looking at people's faces is a good way to get a sense for what shapes to exaggerate when trying to describe someone's personality, which is another trick for me.

MM- i LOVE that street cop model you have. a lot of you guys have an incredible ability to put in this very sharp, clean, descriptive detail (where appropriate) that describes the character, and the model feels complete. i think after reading this thread, i think my ability to understand finer details.. at least anatomically, is still a biiiiiiiiitttttt... conformist, unconscious.. I need to get better at exaggerating certain shapes for a specific reason..

Neo_God

John I would start looking at practical visual effects artists, they are probably the most talented sculptors around , yet they go under the radar for the most part. But their work and processes are not too far from something like a 3d artist. Most of them who pick of ZB for the first time can make things right away that put most digital 3d artists to shame.

here are some artists to get you started

Neill Gorton
Rick Baker
Kazuhiro Tsuji
Jordu Schell
Aris Kolokontes

You can also look at Artists who had done film Effects work like Ron Mueck and Sam Jinks

I would also looking to some of Bruno Luchessi's books on sculpting in Clay, he has one for the body and one for the head/face.

Also if you're interested in studying facial expressions I would look into Darwin's book
"The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals"

John Warner

awesome! fantastic, thanks Neo, thats perfect reference.

Ruz

for me nothing beats having a little 3d head handy ie a real model from forbidden planet or similar.

being able to constantly rotate the model is so much better than having one static view.

side and front planes are obviously a good start for a 3d head, but there is so much more to

make a good sculpt.

Looking at fx artists is one thing, but actually translating that high res goodness in to a low

res poly head with a good silhouette/normal map takes a lot more practice.

I suppose it s good to keep in mind what you are aiming for in the end.

most of my work is done at the lower levels in the sculpt, using the move tool

The sharp edges/detail is just the fancy stuff.

John Warner

thanks per. of course, i agree, and i'm open to taking influence from any medium in art.

i've been wondering dude -- whats with that bind pose on your models -- i haven't seen it, and i'm wondering what reasons you have for using it...

Lamont

I would recommend getting some Sculpy as well, the stuff is fun and having a tactile feel to things would help in the 3D world.

Ruz

per thats not right man. modelling in 3d is a very specific technical thing, not a general design issue. shame on you
people need specific techniques to help them grow as a 3d artist

Ruz

more than you could drink per anyway:)

Its a fact though good specific techniques can be learned and are particular to sculpting packages.

if it was just a case of considering an overall design decision, then we could all practice on slate

with pieces of chalk.

my favorite zbrush artist at the moment

http://www.antropus.com/blog/

personally I treat fine detail as a totally separate thing from the main forms, ie get the broad

forms looking nice, then work in the detail on a separate layer when happy.

I don't use a lot of alphas on the whole, prefer to draw the details by hand

Ruz

well he didn't really ask for advice on the design side, just the specifics about approaches to

detailing.

obviously basic design/drawing skills do cross over in to that, but some of the techniques

involved are very specific as you know.

just telling him it's all about design , is not really gonna help him improve his sculpting abliities.

Blaizer

What to model if you don't have a solid design, an idea? design is very important and i'd dare to say, the most important thing. If we can't manage to create a design, and we only know how to use a software... are we supposed to be a tool? hehehe

Another thing to train is our eye, if we don't see the little details from reality, we won't be able to translate them to the screen in the right way. Train our eye as an animator do is very important. "The more you see, the better".

To work in levels of details is the best thing for a good sculpt, it's like the real process of sculpting. Some people subdivide x7 and they work in the 7th level, and that's something bad. Too many nonsense details, folds, wrinkles, etc are ridiculous in a sculpt. Zbrush should not be used for "3d mucus" heh :P.

Like in a real sculpt, work with passes or levels of details:


Alphas in Zbrush can speed up a lot our workflow.

And well, 4 me is also very important to have a good subdiv basemesh than an ugly blocky or Zsphere mesh. basemesh FTW.

Ruz

well i luckily don't have to get too involved on the design process as most of my work is done

for other people and is normally from a concept. (oK I have to interprete that design and make

decisions on the direction the model will take buts that'S minor really)

I see myself as a 3d modeller mainly, not a creative artist (at least not for games stuff)

re subdivision levels, every company I Have ever worked for has different techniques and you

just have to work the way the AD wants, whether you like the techniques they are using or

not.

So '3d mucus' might be what is required in some companies:)

The cg companies that I have worked for seem to prefer more subd and less sculpting as the

silhouette for a shot is so important.

Nice sculpt BTW Blaizer