An Egyptian man said on Wednesday he was offering his 20-year-old daughter in marriage to Iraqi journalist Muntazer al-Zaidi, who threw his shoes at U.S. President George W. Bush in Baghdad on Sunday,
Throw a shoe at a president. Get a 20 year old girl. Hey hey hey! You will see alot more shoeflinging in the near future.
P.I.G.: That man is clearly insane. Anyone that offers their own daughter to someone idiotic enough to throw shoes at a head of state has to be completely off their rocker. Gotta wonder what she would think of the whole thing.
I applaud resistance to outside threats to your country/culture/family/whatever (its the teenage punk rocker in me breaking through), even if it comes down to throwing your footwear at a man that you've never met. But this is ridiculous. That man offends me far more than Bush ever will. 'I offer my daughter'. For fucks sake, do we still live in a world where that's OK?
[Edit:] (after reading a little more thoroughly) She actually agrees with the idea? Good lord.
Well, if I understood it right, there was only said that the man offered his daughter to the guy who threw the shoe (nice job btw., too bad you didn´t hit, but you got my respect anyway). I believe that I didn´t see there anywhere in that article that he gave him the offer (offer he can´t refuse, if she´s cute) BEFORE he threw the shoe. Please, correct me if I´m wrong.
Steviant - That´s what offends you? Ok, so it´s unusual for cultural conventions in your and even in my country. But the world isn´t only about you or me. But a really sad thing is that someone who offers his own daughter offends you more than a "head of a state" that subscribes (although I doubt that Bush can actually write or read...) orders to kill sons, father, mothers and ALSO daughters. I´ll have to use your words now, so I hope you don´t have it copyrighted: "Do we still live in a world where THAT's OK?"
Ghost-d: I'll admit, my post is definitely a display of cultural differences rearing their heads after a couple glasses of wine . But "offering your daughter" as currency, or a reward, or whatever, sickens and upsets me thoroughly. It smacks of slavery and robbed freedoms, not to mention an unhealthy disregard for women. Thats a cultural thing, evidently, as she seems happy with the idea. This is veering into strangely nasty territory now, so I'll leave that one there.
George Bush and Muntazer al-Zaidi, on the other hand, remain free targets. No, I don't agree with his actions regarding Iraq, or particularly anything else for that matter. But I think that you've gotta be an idiot to throw your shoes at him. Thats just asking for trouble.
Steviant (partly for low odor too) - Offering a daughter seems barbaric to your culture, now. Let´s forget all the fairy tales where king was offering half of the kingdom and hand of the princess to anyone who completes some quest. It´s just a fairy tale for kids, alhtough I believe that it never made you sick when you heard it, right? But let´s focus on some facts:
There were times in your country when a king had the right of the first night, am I right? Ok, that might be a little disputable, so let´s try something else: Since when exactly do women have voting rights? I believe that it´s not that long ago (UK - 1918, USA - 1920)... Weren´t there also times when sporting woman was something innapropriate? I believe so... And how about racial segregation? So please, don´t talk about our culture like it has ALWAYS been perfect. As far as I know even in my country there were times when fathers wanted to pick the perfect husband for their daughters. But it´s all gone now. It´s all matter of time. You can´t push anything. People have to want the change, be ready for it. You know, forced democracy is still only another form of dictatorship.
But there´s another thing that really made me sad about your latest post. You said: "I think that you've gotta be an idiot to throw your shoes at him. Thats just asking for trouble."
With this you´ve just spit in the face of all the people in the history that stepped out the crowd agains the evil. I don´t mind if you want to be just another sheep, but please, don´t insult people like Giordano Bruno, Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks, thousands of volunteers who went to fight against Hitler and also this man: http://makavelliro.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/tien_an_men.jpg
These, and many others are idiots for you just because they weren´t such cowards and they were "asking for trouble" just so they could point on the problem. Noone is ever gonna hear about you and the other sheeps that surround you. But these people, they deserve our respect. Do you NOW see that there´s something SICK about your previous statement?
In new Reno you can marry the daughter AND the son of a farmer , they will follow you around, but be killed pretty easily since they charge at enclave patrols with knives.
Ghost-d: No. I completely disagree. Throwing your shoes at someone, while possibly insulting, is not an actual show of force against a person you believe has committed such wrongs against your country/culture/lifestyle/whatever.
If he got out of his chair and shot him in the face, then I could understand where you're coming from. Hell, even if he just asked him how he felt about the deaths of his countrymen and women, putting him on the spot, publicly embarrassing him, that would be better. Throwing a shoe or two does not make you a hero or a martyr.
Believe me when I say that I am not nationalistic, or even patriotic, in any way. I do not believe my country's culture to be "higher" or "better" than any other. It's just different, and personally I highly dislike my country. I hate it's bigotry and herdlike stupidity, it's willingness to cling to old fashioned ideals that are nothing but damaging, its ability to be so closed-minded. But from my heart and soul, I believe that if you truly, truly believe in something enough to put yourself in that much of a spotlight, that much of a situation that you're facing a good portion of your life in jail (or, as someone else said, if this was under Saddam Hussein, he'd have been executed on the spot) REALLY stand up to the aggressor. Don't throw your shoes at them.
As for the "man offering his daughter" thing: That IS barbaric. I do not care what argument you put forward. People are people, not currency, not a thing to trade like produce. It is backwards. It puts the perceived value of money before peoples rights to choose. The fact that this girl claims to like the idea of the whole process throws a spanner in that argument, but that is a cultural difference, as you said. If a friend of mine offered their daughter as a reward or trade for ANYTHING, I would distance myself from them forever. No hesitation. No matter what the daughter thinks of it. The offering in itself is crime enough.
Whatever is in our (as in my country, England's) history that pushed women down into a lower class of society, that is well on it's way to being gone. That's what history is. It's not an argument against how things are now. It is in the past for a reason. We have moved on.
The people that deserve my respect are people that do something to earn it. This is just how I was raised. Yes, I was raised middle class and comfortable, educated primarily by my parents in a schooling system that left me clinically depressed and a drug user. I am reformed, and healthy, and look at life as something sacred and to be loved. I am engaged to a wonderful woman who I would not trade for the entire world. I look at people as people, and see them as nothing more, nothing less. That is something that I have learned through a rather strange course in my life, but I have learned it nonetheless. People can be heroes (those that give without wanting anything in return), people can be evil (those that take without giving anything back), but people are just people at the end of the day. Respect is earned through love and mutual benefit, not given for acts of stupidity that some consider heroism. Heroism would be to FREE the people that he feel have been betrayed, to make their lives better. Heroism has to be earned through courage and bravery and belief in what is RIGHT and GOOD. This is just a case of a man throwing a middle finger (because thats all it is, an insult) to Bush. It means nothing.
This man is a journalist who threw his shoes at another man. ANOTHER MAN. Nothing to make him a hero, nothing to make him anything other than a man with no shoes, in a LOT of trouble. Yes it's funny, but not anything to blow out of proportion. Which is what people do, because they need amusement.
YES, I know this will piss someone off, maybe even a lot of people, and I apologise for any feelings hurt, but this is how I feel, and I won't be told otherwise.
Throwing a shoe or two does not make you a hero or a martyr.
I think you misunderstand the cultural significance the sole of the shoe has. Its the same attitude Bush had "So the guy threw a shoe. Big deal".
Lets redress the incident.
Pickles are the most vile thing in the universe.
So reviled that no one is allowed to show a pickle to anyone else. Its the ultimate insult to even compare someone to a pickle or bring it up in conversation. Most leaders will execute you on if you are caught using a pickle. Just showing someone a pickle is the same as saying "you're no better then the dirt I walk on". Now here's the twist, its mandated that everyone carry a pickle on them at all times.
Now your country has been invaded by a foreign army under false pretenses. You personally lose family members (he did), you're kidnapped and barely released (he was) you see your country ripped apart with very little chance of it being put back together and its your job to travel to each and every place in your area and not only view the horrors and risk your life, but report on them and try to help others make sense of chaos.
If he had a gun, he would have used it.
If he had a rock, he would have used it.
If he had a WMD he would have used it.
It wasn't a haha pie in the face incident. What he said while he was throwing them, proves it.
"This is from the widows the orphans and those you've killed in Iraq" "You are responsible for the deaths of THOUSANDS of Iraqis"
He's fighting with everything he has, with every last fiber of his being even though he has no chance of winning. That speaks volumes to people who are in the same situation. It's why people rally around the rebels instead of the empire. It's the same mindset a certain country was in when it rebelled from the English King in 1776.
EDIT: If those same people where around today, I have a feeling they would rebel against a different King George, but for the same reasons. Tyranny is never smiled upon, even under the guise of protection, liberation or greed.
Steviant, I see you didn´t quite understand... I´m not going to react to ALL the things you´ve just said/written, mostly because it would be just wasting my time and feeding this debate that leads nowhere, but there are SOME things I´d like to say:
I see that for you throwing a shoe is nothing more than a stupid gesture. Well, yes, maybe you´re right. If I threw a shoe on someone in a pub, on someone who has no armed bodyguards around and I can easily get to him and kick his ass (or get my ass kicked, but at least in a fair fight), it would be really stupid gesture and everyone would make fun of me the very next day, no matter how well/bad handled the fight. But this, and I believe that everyone will agree with me, is a completely different situation here. Also, who would remember some journalist asking a question that embarrased Bush? The answer is - noone. Maybe it wouldn´t even come out public. Hell, any 7 years old kid could give that idiot political question that would embarras him... But throwing a shoe is something more memorable. It also showed that people in Iraq aren´t as happy about the presence of foreign armies as Bush and the bitches around him say. That´s what makes that shoe more than a stupid gesture, more than giving a middle finger.
I see that you didn´t clearly understand what I meant with naming all the things about history of women rights in our culture. I´ll give it another, yet last try: You said yourself that it´s all past and there´s a reason for it. Hell yeah! That´s what I was trying to say. I was trying to remind you that we already went through all these things that you don´t like about "them", and if we give it some time "they" will move on too.
I was trying not to create anything in this post that would force you to answers it, because I really don´t want to keep this debate between us. It would lead nowhere, because as you said that´s how you feel, and you won´t be told otherwise. Enjoy your voting rights...
Ghost-d: Defending gender slavery with the argument that it is "ok" because it happened in the past is akin to saying eating babies is ok becasue my caveman relative liked to nibble on some fetus cakes.....If I saw that guy on the street I would throw both my shoes at him
Dear low odor. Please, feel free to eat as many babies as you wish, just as long as they´re from your country and you won´t invade any other country just to fill your need for babies. That will be ok by me. Seriously, you have had the most hated man as a president for last 8 years, right? It leaded to 2 wars, one of them is ALREADY considered as unjust, and the other one will be too once you get some time to realize what was really going on and who really wanted/needed the things that happended in 2001. So please, try not to care into any other countrys business until you solve the problems you´ve got right at home. And please, don´t try that bullshit that Bush is leaving the office and that he was the only problem, ok? I will be very thankful for that.
So because I am against the exploitation of women somehow I am pro bush, pro war...you sir are an artard. I understand that arguing with artards on the interweb in like slamming your penis is the firdge door- it may feel good at first, but in the morning your still a loser that slams his penis in a fridge door. high five!
I believe that I never said that you are pro bush or pro war. I didn´t even think that. I said that there are more important things to care about in your country. Not to mention that the daughter agreed with the wedding. That´s all.
Replies
An Egyptian man said on Wednesday he was offering his 20-year-old daughter in marriage to Iraqi journalist Muntazer al-Zaidi, who threw his shoes at U.S. President George W. Bush in Baghdad on Sunday,
Throw a shoe at a president. Get a 20 year old girl. Hey hey hey! You will see alot more shoeflinging in the near future.
I applaud resistance to outside threats to your country/culture/family/whatever (its the teenage punk rocker in me breaking through), even if it comes down to throwing your footwear at a man that you've never met. But this is ridiculous. That man offends me far more than Bush ever will. 'I offer my daughter'. For fucks sake, do we still live in a world where that's OK?
[Edit:] (after reading a little more thoroughly) She actually agrees with the idea? Good lord.
Steviant - That´s what offends you? Ok, so it´s unusual for cultural conventions in your and even in my country. But the world isn´t only about you or me. But a really sad thing is that someone who offers his own daughter offends you more than a "head of a state" that subscribes (although I doubt that Bush can actually write or read...) orders to kill sons, father, mothers and ALSO daughters. I´ll have to use your words now, so I hope you don´t have it copyrighted: "Do we still live in a world where THAT's OK?"
George Bush and Muntazer al-Zaidi, on the other hand, remain free targets. No, I don't agree with his actions regarding Iraq, or particularly anything else for that matter. But I think that you've gotta be an idiot to throw your shoes at him. Thats just asking for trouble.
Hey in 8 years all he has had to survive is a pretzel and a pair of shoes...I'd be smiling too
There were times in your country when a king had the right of the first night, am I right? Ok, that might be a little disputable, so let´s try something else: Since when exactly do women have voting rights? I believe that it´s not that long ago (UK - 1918, USA - 1920)... Weren´t there also times when sporting woman was something innapropriate? I believe so... And how about racial segregation? So please, don´t talk about our culture like it has ALWAYS been perfect. As far as I know even in my country there were times when fathers wanted to pick the perfect husband for their daughters. But it´s all gone now. It´s all matter of time. You can´t push anything. People have to want the change, be ready for it. You know, forced democracy is still only another form of dictatorship.
But there´s another thing that really made me sad about your latest post. You said: "I think that you've gotta be an idiot to throw your shoes at him. Thats just asking for trouble."
With this you´ve just spit in the face of all the people in the history that stepped out the crowd agains the evil. I don´t mind if you want to be just another sheep, but please, don´t insult people like Giordano Bruno, Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks, thousands of volunteers who went to fight against Hitler and also this man:
http://makavelliro.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/tien_an_men.jpg
These, and many others are idiots for you just because they weren´t such cowards and they were "asking for trouble" just so they could point on the problem. Noone is ever gonna hear about you and the other sheeps that surround you. But these people, they deserve our respect. Do you NOW see that there´s something SICK about your previous statement?
(and yeah im on topic like you guys
If he got out of his chair and shot him in the face, then I could understand where you're coming from. Hell, even if he just asked him how he felt about the deaths of his countrymen and women, putting him on the spot, publicly embarrassing him, that would be better. Throwing a shoe or two does not make you a hero or a martyr.
Believe me when I say that I am not nationalistic, or even patriotic, in any way. I do not believe my country's culture to be "higher" or "better" than any other. It's just different, and personally I highly dislike my country. I hate it's bigotry and herdlike stupidity, it's willingness to cling to old fashioned ideals that are nothing but damaging, its ability to be so closed-minded. But from my heart and soul, I believe that if you truly, truly believe in something enough to put yourself in that much of a spotlight, that much of a situation that you're facing a good portion of your life in jail (or, as someone else said, if this was under Saddam Hussein, he'd have been executed on the spot) REALLY stand up to the aggressor. Don't throw your shoes at them.
As for the "man offering his daughter" thing: That IS barbaric. I do not care what argument you put forward. People are people, not currency, not a thing to trade like produce. It is backwards. It puts the perceived value of money before peoples rights to choose. The fact that this girl claims to like the idea of the whole process throws a spanner in that argument, but that is a cultural difference, as you said. If a friend of mine offered their daughter as a reward or trade for ANYTHING, I would distance myself from them forever. No hesitation. No matter what the daughter thinks of it. The offering in itself is crime enough.
Whatever is in our (as in my country, England's) history that pushed women down into a lower class of society, that is well on it's way to being gone. That's what history is. It's not an argument against how things are now. It is in the past for a reason. We have moved on.
The people that deserve my respect are people that do something to earn it. This is just how I was raised. Yes, I was raised middle class and comfortable, educated primarily by my parents in a schooling system that left me clinically depressed and a drug user. I am reformed, and healthy, and look at life as something sacred and to be loved. I am engaged to a wonderful woman who I would not trade for the entire world. I look at people as people, and see them as nothing more, nothing less. That is something that I have learned through a rather strange course in my life, but I have learned it nonetheless. People can be heroes (those that give without wanting anything in return), people can be evil (those that take without giving anything back), but people are just people at the end of the day. Respect is earned through love and mutual benefit, not given for acts of stupidity that some consider heroism. Heroism would be to FREE the people that he feel have been betrayed, to make their lives better. Heroism has to be earned through courage and bravery and belief in what is RIGHT and GOOD. This is just a case of a man throwing a middle finger (because thats all it is, an insult) to Bush. It means nothing.
This man is a journalist who threw his shoes at another man. ANOTHER MAN. Nothing to make him a hero, nothing to make him anything other than a man with no shoes, in a LOT of trouble. Yes it's funny, but not anything to blow out of proportion. Which is what people do, because they need amusement.
YES, I know this will piss someone off, maybe even a lot of people, and I apologise for any feelings hurt, but this is how I feel, and I won't be told otherwise.
Rant over.
Lets redress the incident.
Pickles are the most vile thing in the universe.
So reviled that no one is allowed to show a pickle to anyone else. Its the ultimate insult to even compare someone to a pickle or bring it up in conversation. Most leaders will execute you on if you are caught using a pickle. Just showing someone a pickle is the same as saying "you're no better then the dirt I walk on". Now here's the twist, its mandated that everyone carry a pickle on them at all times.
Now your country has been invaded by a foreign army under false pretenses. You personally lose family members (he did), you're kidnapped and barely released (he was) you see your country ripped apart with very little chance of it being put back together and its your job to travel to each and every place in your area and not only view the horrors and risk your life, but report on them and try to help others make sense of chaos.
If he had a gun, he would have used it.
If he had a rock, he would have used it.
If he had a WMD he would have used it.
It wasn't a haha pie in the face incident. What he said while he was throwing them, proves it.
"This is from the widows the orphans and those you've killed in Iraq" "You are responsible for the deaths of THOUSANDS of Iraqis"
He's fighting with everything he has, with every last fiber of his being even though he has no chance of winning. That speaks volumes to people who are in the same situation. It's why people rally around the rebels instead of the empire. It's the same mindset a certain country was in when it rebelled from the English King in 1776.
EDIT: If those same people where around today, I have a feeling they would rebel against a different King George, but for the same reasons. Tyranny is never smiled upon, even under the guise of protection, liberation or greed.
I see that for you throwing a shoe is nothing more than a stupid gesture. Well, yes, maybe you´re right. If I threw a shoe on someone in a pub, on someone who has no armed bodyguards around and I can easily get to him and kick his ass (or get my ass kicked, but at least in a fair fight), it would be really stupid gesture and everyone would make fun of me the very next day, no matter how well/bad handled the fight. But this, and I believe that everyone will agree with me, is a completely different situation here. Also, who would remember some journalist asking a question that embarrased Bush? The answer is - noone. Maybe it wouldn´t even come out public. Hell, any 7 years old kid could give that idiot political question that would embarras him... But throwing a shoe is something more memorable. It also showed that people in Iraq aren´t as happy about the presence of foreign armies as Bush and the bitches around him say. That´s what makes that shoe more than a stupid gesture, more than giving a middle finger.
I see that you didn´t clearly understand what I meant with naming all the things about history of women rights in our culture. I´ll give it another, yet last try: You said yourself that it´s all past and there´s a reason for it. Hell yeah! That´s what I was trying to say. I was trying to remind you that we already went through all these things that you don´t like about "them", and if we give it some time "they" will move on too.
I was trying not to create anything in this post that would force you to answers it, because I really don´t want to keep this debate between us. It would lead nowhere, because as you said that´s how you feel, and you won´t be told otherwise. Enjoy your voting rights...