Modeling with a Pen rather than a Mouse

McBradd

Using a Wacom or Cintiq in Zbrush, Mudbox, and Photoshop makes perfect sense, but I'm wondering if anyone here can give me some tips on using a Pen in Max and Maya. I'm trying to break away from the mouse completely.

A few searches of the forums turned up a bit of discussion, and people's opinions on different set ups, but no real tips on how to go about it intelligently. I'm hoping this change can improve the speed and quality of my workflow.

So Ideas?

butt_sahib

I bet theres not one of us who havent tried playing with the pen inside max/maya.

To be honest, i think using a pen in maz/maya or any hardcore software is lame, in-effective and too much of a hassle.
Using a pen MIGHT be better with silo-as there are some utilities which could be handled with a pen, but for me, using a pen in max/maya is something i wouldnt try let alone make it the sole hardware i use.
Though to your original intent of posting this thread, i thikn its possible to configure the pen to wokr for you in the UI. Dont know how youd go about the configuration, but if it were me, it'd be the same configuration which iuse with the mouse...left click,right click and middle mouse button. No scroll though,but you can pan in max by holding Ctrl+Alt+drag middle mouse button. Seems like it could work.
What made you decide to try and take that leap? curious

McBradd

I recently did a bunch of contracts making pre-rendered graphics and video's for various flash sites. I was using the pen so much in PS and Flash that I started using it Windows as well. Recently I began refreshing my 3D portfolio, and it was the first time I'd reached for the mouse in a long while...

Super

People still model with a mouse? Christ.

Bal

At work, where I use Maya, I only work with my wacom stylus, I don't see what is "lame" about it butt_sahib. I'm just as quick as I was with my mouse, and it's less of a strain. That's why I switched mostly, I have small hands and at the end of a day of work my right hand is usually really sore, not the case when using a pen.

I try to do it in Max too, but it's a bit more tricky to get used to cause of the default viewport movement shortcuts Max uses (=they suck).

butt_sahib

sup:-
SOME OF US USE THE MOUSE EVERYWHERE XD

well,i guess its not lame...is definitely tricky for some of us.Guess im calling it lame because i couldnt get my head around it Strange though, my wrists get more sore when i use the pen for long periods of time.

dont you be dissing the mouse ya'll

Eric Chadwick

Some tips here, from way back in the Max 7 days
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?p=599445

McBradd

Thanks Eric

Oh yeah, and when I'm working in max, I use 'Switcher' so it's the same movement control scheme as Maya. At my last job I worked with the guys who wrote it... They also wrote 'Nex' which brings a lot of the max style selection specific tools over to Maya... their website is dRaster.com

MoP

I've tried it several times and just never got used to it. I use middle-mouse scrolling a lot, and there's no replacement for that on my Intuos2... plus in general I find it feels a bit imprecise for some reason.
I like being able to click on an object and move it by exactly one pixel, sort of thing - no real reason for it, I guess I'm just a little obsessive.
Clearly using wacom pens for modelling works for many people, so just go for it and stick with it and I'm sure you'll end up working well.

However I don't see why you should try to force it on yourself if it doesn't "feel" right.

Mister Sentient

I like using the pen when I am modeling in Max (Screen mode with gizmo off) or Zbrush but for general Windows usage I find it a bit clumsy.

pixelmitherer

Navigating Windows using my Wacom is just asking for trouble. One false stroke and you've moved folders into folders where they shoudn't be!:poly134:

dabu

After suffering from multiple rsi injuries, I switched to using 2 Evoluent mice, and a wacom 6 x 11.

I am comfortable using the intuous 3 for everything, especially when switching between maya and pshop whilst texturing. But it makes my shoulders tight, so I tent to stay with my left hand on the mouse for most non-painting work.

Set your middle mouse click and right mouse click to the rocker button on the stylus, and off you go.

James Edwards

It really depends on the software. If the software makes full use of the mouse as an input device then I stick with the mouse. Most 3d packages don't however, and aside from limited use of a mousewheel, there's little advantage a mouse will offer other than ergonomic preference. Silo is one of the only apps to take full advantage of every button including the wheel and thumb buttons available on most mice. I've built my own workflow in silo using a mouse that I can't replicate in any other app.

I've never suffered RSI in all the years I've been doing 3d stuff so I've never felt forced to use a tablet. Either I'm extremely lucky or I've been doing something right as far as my ergonomics go but I've never seen a tablet as having any advantage over a mouse other than for actual painting or sculpting. Otherwise it's actually a clunkier input device as far as input options go for me.

thomasp

i use the pen for most things including 3D. navigation etc i found no problem after customizing the pen button setup. on the box i use most frequently, i have only connected a mouse once during the OS setup when it was a requirement.

i am a wacom junkie who owns more tablets than mice.

McBradd

I'm left handed, so I have the tablet on the left side of my keyboard, and the mouse on the right hand side. (learned the mouse Righty...) I'm using the Intuos3, so navigating in windows is fine
@pixelmitherer - I've made that mistake a couple times, but it's nothing that CTRL-Z doesn't fix. (And I happen to have that as one of my function buttons on the tablet!)

When I'm browsing the internet, I use the middle click drag-scrolling now instead of the mouse scroll wheel. I love it.

leslievdb

I use my wacom bamboo for everything these days,
its great when your modeling and you have to go and work in zbrush or photoshop, no switching between mouse and wacom.
The only time when i feel that my wacom doesn't do the trick is when im rigging and i have to place bones in a straight line but thats about it.

anyway im a fan of wacommodeling ^^

bugo

work = tablet
games = mouse

killingpeople

rawkstar turned me on. to using a pen rather than a mouse, and I've never looked back. It's sped me up and it's saved my wrist.

Sage

I still use a mouse. I found the pen stressed my wrist when modeling in a 3d app. Working on sculpting is different though. Sometimes I find myself using a mouse for texturing certain things since it's faster than switching my brush settings for pressure on and off. Although I should just see if I can short cut those.

pior

McBradd I use the exact same config as yours : tablet on the left, mouse on the right. Whatever happens on the left screen I control with the stylus either on the intuos or straight on the cintiq screen, anything else on the right screen I do with the mouse. I rarely use Wacom's display toggle fonction (makes the cursor jump on the other screen). But as mentionned before, Wacoming in Windows is a nono because of possible folder mistakes. Maybe there's a way to disable icon and folder dragging.

I have been using my stylus for 3d ever since that thread Eric linked to - so basically it's been 4 years of doing so. The trick is to set one button to middle click and one to right click. Max, Maya and mudbox can all be controlled that way.

On a side note I just started again on an experiment I tried but didnt follow through some years ago. Basically using JoyToKey to control Photoshop without the need of the keyboard. Works wonders with a 360 or PS2 controller!

I actually plan to experiment with speech recognition tonight. Imagine loading programs and custom brushes just by saying their names. Kickass!

Also, after reading Sage's comment. Not every navigation scheme is equal, even if all are possible to control with the stylus. For instance some programs require you to hold some pen or keyboard buttons pressed all the time with the stylus not touching the surface, and others need the stylus to hit the surface to register the move. In that regard max and maya are very different and one can cause more stress that the other.

Lastly, by default Maya is quite hard to drive wth a pen since 'clickdrag move' is off by default meaning you have to hit a vertex to select it, release the click, *then* move the component. When clickdrag turned on you can move vertices just like laying down a photoshop stroke, simply hitting and moving them at the same time. Iirc most recent, elegant 3d programs allow this (Max, Maya, Silo...) but many apps still rely on something more 'clickety'.

Sage

I have my mouse button to use the wheel, but I never liked it, except with silo. I guess I wouldn't mind Maya as well since the navigation is the same. I guess it's a matter of practice, I feel I don't have the same amount of precision with the pen.

Steve Schulze

Doing everything with the stylus is more practical if you've got one of the modern tablets that have a button to switch your movement mode from graphic tablet to mouse style movement. You can have your tablet areaconstrained to one screen for convenient drawing and then press the button to access your other screen.
After my Evoluent mouse right button broke, I switched to do everything with the stylus and haven't looked back. Aside from occasionaly detecting my attempts to click on the windows desktop as dragging, it works perfectly well.

killingpeople

pior wrote: »

I actually plan to experiment with speech recognition tonight. Imagine loading programs and custom brushes just by saying their names. Kickass!

Sounds Intersting, that could be badass after setting it up. Might be annoying for co-workers however.

"Connect" ... "Collapse to Poly" ... "Symmetry" ... "Vert Mode" ... "Target Weld"

Someone from the other side of the cubicle:
"Select All" ... "Delete" ... "Save"

Jesse Moody

killingpeople wrote:

"Connect" ... "Collapse to Poly" ... "Symmetry" ... "Vert Mode" ... "Target Weld"

Someone from the other side of the cubicle:
"Select All" ... "Delete" ... "Save"

Yep I would be that guy!

arshlevon

same here KP, rawkstar showed me the light...

i dont even use a mouse anymore, for anything.. it really pisses the IT guys off when they have to do anything at my machine..

2 cintiqs and i fly, i am much faster this way. i also do things a bit differently now that i dont use a mouse.. i would say that once it becomes second nature its a much more tactile way to model, but i found it lends itself more toward organic modeling, hard surface is a bit easier to approach with a mouse, but i got use it..

Michael Knubben

Pior: Try Glovepie, it'll do more than just joysticks, I think you'll like it. Some scripting/setup required, but you'll breeze through that, it's quite easy. I used to use it for winamp and audio software quite a lot, and it's great. I think I might try it for some 2d/3d stuff soon, as well.
Let us know how the voice-recognition goes.

As for mouse or pen, I use them both. Pen for freeform stuff like sculpting, painting and tweaking in 3d, mouse when accuracy is important, or when I want to use the scrollwheel (which I have set up to do a lot of different things in Silo, with the ctrl/alt/shift modifiers) and extra buttons.

And ofcourse you set your wacom to mmb/rmb instead of the useless default setup!

Japhir

i really want to do everything with my pen (i like it) but my pen isn't one of those super cool ones, but a 30 bucks wacom volito. it only has lmb (press pen) and rmb (small button near thumb). so i can't set up my mmb and therefore i can't use it .
does anybody know a way to set it up better? right now i can only use it for photoshop and zbrush.

Rens

I messed myself up multiple times with RSI.

I bought a mx revolution mouse, good stuff, but it still effected my underarm and finger too much so i threw it out of the window, i only use my intuos3 these days.

It helped me get rid of the pain around my neck, shoulder, finger. Problem that it does give me is around my wrist, and left ribs/chest, because an a4 + keyboard is taking up so much space that i sometimes sit in a twist... bad habit.
(sitting correct and not bending my wrist too much when working should solve it)

Anyway! By taking away the mouse, you'll learn to do everything with the pen, and setting the first button of the pen on middlemouse, max becomes quite fun. I think im even faster with a pen these days then i was with a mouse.

The pen has alot of advantages, it just takes some practice

butt_sahib

lawlz @ per
The reasons why i use the mouse have been pretty much said mainly by mop
"I like being able to click on an object and move it by exactly one pixel, sort of thing - no real reason for it, I guess I'm just a little obsessive."
and sage:
"I found the pen stressed my wrist when modeling in a 3d app. Working on sculpting is different though. "

I definitely see this as my way to go:
"As for mouse or pen, I use them both. Pen for freeform stuff like sculpting, painting and tweaking in 3d, mouse when accuracy is important, or when I want to use the scrollwheel (which I have set up to do a lot of different things in Silo, with the ctrl/alt/shift modifiers) and extra buttons." -Mightypea
But pior/Op, being ambidextrous with the mouse on the left and pen on the right (righty)! Sounds crazy. *tries it out*...sounds plausible.

One question; am i the only one who has to rotate the goddamn thing to reach for the buttons most of the time?!
hmmm, guess ill have to look into this "pen" issue.....cheers guys

Steve Schulze

arshlevon wrote: »

2 cintiqs and i fly, i am much faster this way

So do you wear your monocle while you work or do you put it aside with your tophat?

Michael Knubben

Jackablade: He puts both hat and monocle into dust-jackets made of double-layered money, with a trim of pure gold.

rooster

i've tried it because I like the idea, but generally i seem to switch back to using mouse without actually noticing

EarthQuake

MoP wrote: »

I've tried it several times and just never got used to it. I use middle-mouse scrolling a lot, and there's no replacement for that on my Intuos2... plus in general I find it feels a bit imprecise for some reason.
I like being able to click on an object and move it by exactly one pixel, sort of thing - no real reason for it, I guess I'm just a little obsessive.
Clearly using wacom pens for modelling works for many people, so just go for it and stick with it and I'm sure you'll end up working well.

However I don't see why you should try to force it on yourself if it doesn't "feel" right.

Yeah.

I find for mechanical type modeling where you have to be precise and straight with your modeling that its really hard to use a tablet when modeling, for more organic character work it can be viable, but i've never been comfortable fully switching over to a tablet for modeling.

Blaizer

heh, i have been working with pen since i have pen in the pc. I used to use the pen with max for all, now with modo all is tablet tablet and more tablet. the keyboard it's like a piano for all the shortcuts.

Mouse for me is dead. I only use it to play the few games i play, it's almost always charging on its "house".

I work very fast with the intuos

sprunghunt

if you're going to use a tablet for 3Ds max I can suggest that you set the rotation gizmo to 'circular crank' as I find it much easier to use that way with a tablet.

You can find the setting here:
Customise>Preferences>Gizmos

SomberResplendence

Bal wrote: »

At work, where I use Maya, I only work with my wacom stylus, I don't see what is "lame" about it butt_sahib. I'm just as quick as I was with my mouse, and it's less of a strain. That's why I switched mostly, I have small hands and at the end of a day of work my right hand is usually really sore, not the case when using a pen.

I try to do it in Max too, but it's a bit more tricky to get used to cause of the default viewport movement shortcuts Max uses (=they suck).

Yeah I'm with you Bal. I use my wacom in Maya, but once I get to work and start using Max, I go straight back to the mouse. I just find it more seamless in Maya.

DimitrisT

I use my wacom for everything except playing games. It was a pita at first but now it's second nature. Sadly my mouse aim is a lot worse now though .

I've positioned my wacom right infront of my keyboard instead of at the side as I feel this is more ergonomical and I feel a lot less stress on my arms and neck.

Eric Chadwick

FWIW..
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?p=783748

AnimeAngel

I don't personally use the pen for modeling, but my wife swears by her tablet and she uses it for just about everything including modeling. She says that once you get use to it, its the best way to work. Needless to say I havent gotten use to it yet

McBradd

@Rens- I have had that exact problem; I love the MX Revolution and love the weighted wheel and nav buttons, but after a long day I can feel RSI setting in...

@arshlevon- I used Photoshop on the original Cintiq and I noticed is suffered a bit of 'pen lag.' Do ou get that when working in 3D apps as well?