@Oleg: If Russia is so tough why do you pick on small, poor nations? Is it because the likes of Europe and America would kick your asses back to the stone age?
You mean over this? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1553593/Putin-in-nuclear-threat-against-Europe.html
Putin is wrong to threaten the useage of nukes, still I feel the US sticks it's nose into matters far beyond it's reach and gets countries into trouble on an international level I doubt anyone would have the stupidity to actually launch an attack and think that even the threat of this is a deterent against war, that is providing relations do not deteriorate too severly.
I don't just mean Georgia, how about Chechnya and Afghanistan? Both sides in the media here were allowed to speak and give their view on the crisis. I think Putin wants any excuse to invade.
Whipping your radioactive shaft out and measure it against UN tolerance is nothing new, MacArthur tried, Bush succeeded, and Kim Jong-il does it so often he's probably sporting some sun burn.
Putin isn't the first, and he certainly won't be the last.
both the regions were under quasi-russian control already, there was truce renewed in 2004. as much as I think that putin and his puppet are exeggerating their role as victims, there was no incentive for them to start a war in an area that is already under their influence. Eventhough it is not part of their country those two regions there in Georgia were sorta independent already, and while it was an "unresolved" issue (cosindering it part of official borders of Georgia), it was like that the last 15+ years... so I think its not really "invasion" from Russian side. If one is objective you must question why Geoergia tried military action at all, I mean they had no chance whatsoever, why sacrifice your own people...
but now one can say russian gov isnt exactly behaving to de-escalate the situation.
and like with any war, truth dies first, really hard to get proper information, obviously each sides' media will publish biased opinions.
I welcome the coming apocalypse and collapse of government as we know it.
To Mr Putin I say "do it, I dare you. Make the world a better place, come on chicken bawwk buuck baaggh gawk!"
Putin has no designs to start a war with the west, or use nukes. It's a threat, big nations make those to little ones all of the time.
Georgia is posturing militarily and acting violently right on their border. Iraq, well over ten thousand miles away, got us to invade them (twice!) doing the same thing.
I don't see why we're vilifying russia here, aside from the old cold war nonsense. The only reason nato is supporting georgia at all is because we're kindof obligated to, not because they're actually in the right. Let alone worth going to war with one of the three greatest military powers in the world over.
They aren't just attacking gerogia to try and take them back into the soviet union, or whatever nonsense. They're intervening in this, which escalated violently very recently -- http://www.american.edu/ted/ice/ossetia.htm
Don't forget Canada also has Ubisoft which makes Americas army, the training/recruitment software for Americas youth. Who knows what they are teaching them... well other than to say "boom head shot!" every five seconds.
How can you hate Russia haven't you seen from Russia with love? Its in the name they only come with love, it may be hard love but its still good lovin!
don't worry, we're not wasting our nukes on countries like America. its going down on its own. we just need to wait a little bit.
as well america doesn't need to bother with shooting off nukes to russia. Nothing significant to hit. Maybe a pile of snow? I said the same thing when we invaded iraq.. whats there to shoot? dirt?
I'm more worried about mexicans with their immigration army and canada with their free health care than a bunch of ppl sour about the fall of communism
I'm heading to the barren cheap land in the boring states up north that have no military importance just incase john titor predictions or ww3 flare up.
@Oleg: If Russia is so tough why do you pick on small, poor nations? Is it because the likes of Europe and America would kick your asses back to the stone age?
You do a lot of trash talking for living in Ireland.
I simpatise with any smaller nation bullied by the larger. It happened in Ireland and its going on the world over. The only way to tackle a bully is to fight back and it angers me that the Russians will get away with this.
yeah- but the russian government not russians. the uk people were quite outspoken in opposition to invading iraq but the government went along with it anyway. it should be obvious by now that the actions of a government do not equal the actions/intent of its people. I'll admit I don't know the half of this story but lets not go making assumptions over entire countries based on the actions of their government because we already know they are seperate things
This reminds me of when Bush bashed Israel for attacking terrorist. Maybe he should shut the hell up and just go away. So he really wants to send the US to attack Russia, with what. All the healthy soldiers from Iraq and Afghanistan. I guess he thinks that because there is oil in Russia we should go in there and liberate their people. It will be an easy war to win.... What a load of crap... Georgia wants to start shit with Russia tough shit, let them get their asses handed to them.
I couldn't resist but be an ignorant prick about this LOL. But seriously why the hell is Bush starting more shit with other countries, we have our hands full with Iraq and Afghanistan, does he want to make another country a country club for terrorist, which is what would happen if we actually beat Russia.
I simpatise with any smaller nation bullied by the larger. It happened in Ireland and its going on the world over. The only way to tackle a bully is to fight back and it angers me that the Russians will get away with this.
So does russia, by the looks of it.
Again, it's hard to find impartial news, but it looks like georgia provoked violence with the ossetians (a group the soviets granted independence) first, causing russia to intervene.
I think that Mikheil Saakashvili has hasten ( rush ) at Ossetia without thought .
He's made mistake - poor people is going to pay his bill.
Neverandless -Ossetia is part of Gerorgia so Russia is nothing to do there.
anyway -Medevedev/Putin/Bush - I don't see real difference !
I don't think the cold war ever really stopped, just lost intensity. Don't all big countries ditrust each other and go behind each others backs for information and the general upper hand? Anyway cold is better than hot.
from what i got from it:
-people in south ossetia want to join the russian country because they think it kicks ass
-the georgian government doesn't like that, so it sends the military to keep their people from joining russia
-russia sais: you can't keep "our" people away from us if they want to join us
from the Economist
The ethnic conflict between Georgia and its breakaway enclave, Abkhazia, was one of many detonated by the collapse of the Soviet Union. Recently, this patch of land, in law part of Georgia but in effect controlled by Russia, has become a new frontier between Russia and the West. Two months ago Georgia and Russia came close to war. Russia accused Georgia of preparing a strike on Abkhazia, mobilised paratroopers and artillery to join its “peacekeepers”, and shot down a Georgian drone. Hotheads in Tbilisi and Moscow said that war was all but inevitable.
Diplomatic intervention by Europe and America staved it off, but tensions remain high. This week bombs exploded in the Abkhaz town of Gagra and the capital, Sukhumi, prompting Abkhazia to close its border with Georgia; and Russia reopened a sea route between Sochi and Gagra. On July 2nd a bomb ripped through an apartment block in Sochi, host of the 2014 winter Olympics. The Russians make no bones over linking trouble in Abkhazia to Georgia’s hopes of securing NATO membership, which they strongly resist. But even as Georgia and Russia argue, nobody pays much heed to the Abkhaz themselves.
The Abkhaz and the Georgians belong to different ethnic groups but have shared this bit of Black Sea coast for centuries. When the Bolsheviks occupied Georgia, Abkhazia was given the status of a Soviet republic. Only in 1931 did Stalin (a Georgian) turn Abkhazia into an autonomous region of Georgia. Later his secret-police chief, Beria (also a Georgian, born in Abkhazia), resettled Georgians from the western part of the country in Abkhazia, tipping its ethnic balance further in favour of Georgians. Abkhaz schools were shut and the language was banned. (Edit by me: The same happened to SO)
When the Soviet Union fell apart, various ethnic time-bombs planted by Stalin across the Caucasus began to go off. In August 1992 Georgia, itself in near anarchy, began a war in Abkhazia. Nominally under the rule of Eduard Shevardnadze, the country was run by nationalist warlords who recruited criminals to their armies. These troops pillaged Abkhazia, defeating the ill-armed Abkhaz. When the tide of the war turned and the Abkhaz, helped by Chechens and Russian mercenaries, stormed back, they massacred ethnic Georgians. Atrocities were committed on both sides, and some 250,000 of the pre-war Georgian inhabitants (who accounted for 45% of the total population) were forced out through ethnic cleansing. But the Abkhaz look back on the conflict as a war of independence and show little sympathy for Georgian refugees. Their mistrust of Georgia is boosted by Russia’s anti-Georgian propaganda.
Russia, which fanned the conflict first by encouraging the Georgians, then backing the Abkhaz, has throughout played a highly dubious role. It claims to be an impartial peacekeeper, but it has strong vested interests. The Russians have ignored sanctions on Abkhazia meant to force the Abkhaz to take back their refugees, and have also given most Abkhaz Russian passports that let them travel abroad. With 90% of the population enlisted as “Russian citizens”, watching Russian television, using Russian money and receiving Russian pensions, Abkhazia is barely autonomous. And though the Russians often talk about Kosovo as a precedent, they do not really want to see Abkhazia’s independence.
The Abkhaz realise the dangers of assimilation into Russia and are wary of Russian nationalism. When Russia tried to dictate their choice of president, Abkhaz voters picked his rival. Yet even if integration with Russia seems unappealing, to many the idea of being part of Georgia is worse. “At least Russia did not fight against us,” says Stanislav Lakoba, head of Abkhazia’s security council. He adds that Georgia’s hard line and Europe’s indifference have driven Abkhazia into Russia’s arms.
The Abkhaz also know that the only reason for the sudden interest in their plight is Russia’s increasing belligerence. But Sergei Bagapsh, the de facto president, has ruled out replacing or even altering the Russian peacekeeping force. “Our interests will be represented only by Russia,” Mr Bagapsh said after meeting Dmitry Medvedev, Russia’s president, recently.
Some of the blame for this situation rests with Georgia’s president, Mikheil Saakashvili. When he swept to power in 2004, he did not use his popularity to apologise for Georgia’s past actions or disown the legacy of his predecessors. By late 2004, Georgia was getting closer to a deal with Russia and a no-use-of-force agreement with Abkhazia, but neither document was signed. Mr Saakashvili said that “we are not inviting separatists to Georgia, we will ourselves return to Abkhazia.” His populism irritated the Abkhaz, as did his decision to banish Irakli Alasania, the only man the Abkhaz side trusted as a negotiator, as ambassador to the UN in New York.
In 2006 the Georgians forced their way into the upper Kodori gorge, violating a 1994 peace agreement. They said they had to clear the area of a local warlord. But Paata Zakareishvili, a Georgian analyst, believes he could have been nabbed in Tbilisi. Ruslan Kishmaria, who oversees Gali, a region where 50,000 Georgian refugees spontaneously returned after the war, says Georgia refuses to let the UN verify their return. Georgian television channels disseminate false reports of Georgians being assaulted from the Abkhaz side. Earlier this year the UN secretary-general said that “inaccurate reports originating in the Georgian media and occasionally the Georgian authorities…have contributed to growing distrust and insecurity.”
In the circumstances, it is hardly surprising that Mr Saakashvili’s latest peace plan, offering Abkhazia unlimited autonomy, was dismissed as propaganda by the Abkhaz. Mr Saakashvili announced it on Georgian television (which is blocked in Abkhazia). When it was delivered to the Abkhaz, they refused to touch it.
Georgia talks of developing free-trade zones in Abkhazia, but is yet to lift sanctions that do not work anyway. Mr Alasania, whose father was killed in the 1990s war, says that “the key to this conflict lies not in Washington or Moscow but in Tbilisi and Sukhumi…we have to take the first steps towards reconciliation.” Rebuilding trust between the two sides may take years—and even then it may not lead to full reintegration of the country. But if Georgia wants to stay democratic and prosperous, it has no other option. And if they want to preserve their sense of identity, the Abkhaz must do their bit too.
Replies
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1553593/Putin-in-nuclear-threat-against-Europe.html
Putin is wrong to threaten the useage of nukes, still I feel the US sticks it's nose into matters far beyond it's reach and gets countries into trouble on an international level
I AM NOT BUILDING A SHELTER!
you mean this guy? :
and why russia doesn't attack?
cos of mutually assured destruction, and nuclear winter.
nobody benefits from world obliteration.
Putin isn't the first, and he certainly won't be the last.
-R
but now one can say russian gov isnt exactly behaving to de-escalate the situation.
and like with any war, truth dies first, really hard to get proper information, obviously each sides' media will publish biased opinions.
To Mr Putin I say "do it, I dare you. Make the world a better place, come on chicken bawwk buuck baaggh gawk!"
Georgia is posturing militarily and acting violently right on their border. Iraq, well over ten thousand miles away, got us to invade them (twice!) doing the same thing.
I don't see why we're vilifying russia here, aside from the old cold war nonsense. The only reason nato is supporting georgia at all is because we're kindof obligated to, not because they're actually in the right. Let alone worth going to war with one of the three greatest military powers in the world over.
They aren't just attacking gerogia to try and take them back into the soviet union, or whatever nonsense. They're intervening in this, which escalated violently very recently --
http://www.american.edu/ted/ice/ossetia.htm
You're god damn right. Watch out though, we have a 24, b1ll and beaver pelts.
How can you hate Russia haven't you seen from Russia with love? Its in the name they only come with love, it may be hard love but its still good lovin!
as well america doesn't need to bother with shooting off nukes to russia. Nothing significant to hit.
I'm more worried about mexicans with their immigration army and canada with their free health care than a bunch of ppl sour about the fall of communism
I'm heading to the barren cheap land in the boring states up north that have no military importance just incase john titor predictions or ww3 flare up.
You do a lot of trash talking for living in Ireland.
I guess that wouldn't work to well with a nation...
I couldn't resist but be an ignorant prick about this LOL. But seriously why the hell is Bush starting more shit with other countries, we have our hands full with Iraq and Afghanistan, does he want to make another country a country club for terrorist, which is what would happen if we actually beat Russia.
So does russia, by the looks of it.
Again, it's hard to find impartial news, but it looks like georgia provoked violence with the ossetians (a group the soviets granted independence) first, causing russia to intervene.
/out.
...this makes me scared. I hope that You are not right.
start here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Kingdom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikheil_Saakashvili
I think that Mikheil Saakashvili has hasten ( rush ) at Ossetia without thought .
He's made mistake - poor people is going to pay his bill.
Neverandless -Ossetia is part of Gerorgia so Russia is nothing to do there.
anyway -Medevedev/Putin/Bush - I don't see real difference !
qft!
-people in south ossetia want to join the russian country because they think it kicks ass
-the georgian government doesn't like that, so it sends the military to keep their people from joining russia
-russia sais: you can't keep "our" people away from us if they want to join us
and they threaten each other for a while.
right?
intro movie to ghost recon. a game were russia invades georgia!
fuck. tom clancy is the new nostradamus
the scary part is that it takes place in the middle of 2008
We all know how that plays out... WOLVERINES!!!!
from the Economist
The ethnic conflict between Georgia and its breakaway enclave, Abkhazia, was one of many detonated by the collapse of the Soviet Union. Recently, this patch of land, in law part of Georgia but in effect controlled by Russia, has become a new frontier between Russia and the West. Two months ago Georgia and Russia came close to war. Russia accused Georgia of preparing a strike on Abkhazia, mobilised paratroopers and artillery to join its “peacekeepers”, and shot down a Georgian drone. Hotheads in Tbilisi and Moscow said that war was all but inevitable.
Diplomatic intervention by Europe and America staved it off, but tensions remain high. This week bombs exploded in the Abkhaz town of Gagra and the capital, Sukhumi, prompting Abkhazia to close its border with Georgia; and Russia reopened a sea route between Sochi and Gagra. On July 2nd a bomb ripped through an apartment block in Sochi, host of the 2014 winter Olympics. The Russians make no bones over linking trouble in Abkhazia to Georgia’s hopes of securing NATO membership, which they strongly resist. But even as Georgia and Russia argue, nobody pays much heed to the Abkhaz themselves.
The Abkhaz and the Georgians belong to different ethnic groups but have shared this bit of Black Sea coast for centuries. When the Bolsheviks occupied Georgia, Abkhazia was given the status of a Soviet republic. Only in 1931 did Stalin (a Georgian) turn Abkhazia into an autonomous region of Georgia. Later his secret-police chief, Beria (also a Georgian, born in Abkhazia), resettled Georgians from the western part of the country in Abkhazia, tipping its ethnic balance further in favour of Georgians. Abkhaz schools were shut and the language was banned. (Edit by me: The same happened to SO)
When the Soviet Union fell apart, various ethnic time-bombs planted by Stalin across the Caucasus began to go off. In August 1992 Georgia, itself in near anarchy, began a war in Abkhazia. Nominally under the rule of Eduard Shevardnadze, the country was run by nationalist warlords who recruited criminals to their armies. These troops pillaged Abkhazia, defeating the ill-armed Abkhaz. When the tide of the war turned and the Abkhaz, helped by Chechens and Russian mercenaries, stormed back, they massacred ethnic Georgians. Atrocities were committed on both sides, and some 250,000 of the pre-war Georgian inhabitants (who accounted for 45% of the total population) were forced out through ethnic cleansing. But the Abkhaz look back on the conflict as a war of independence and show little sympathy for Georgian refugees. Their mistrust of Georgia is boosted by Russia’s anti-Georgian propaganda.
Russia, which fanned the conflict first by encouraging the Georgians, then backing the Abkhaz, has throughout played a highly dubious role. It claims to be an impartial peacekeeper, but it has strong vested interests. The Russians have ignored sanctions on Abkhazia meant to force the Abkhaz to take back their refugees, and have also given most Abkhaz Russian passports that let them travel abroad. With 90% of the population enlisted as “Russian citizens”, watching Russian television, using Russian money and receiving Russian pensions, Abkhazia is barely autonomous. And though the Russians often talk about Kosovo as a precedent, they do not really want to see Abkhazia’s independence.
The Abkhaz realise the dangers of assimilation into Russia and are wary of Russian nationalism. When Russia tried to dictate their choice of president, Abkhaz voters picked his rival. Yet even if integration with Russia seems unappealing, to many the idea of being part of Georgia is worse. “At least Russia did not fight against us,” says Stanislav Lakoba, head of Abkhazia’s security council. He adds that Georgia’s hard line and Europe’s indifference have driven Abkhazia into Russia’s arms.
The Abkhaz also know that the only reason for the sudden interest in their plight is Russia’s increasing belligerence. But Sergei Bagapsh, the de facto president, has ruled out replacing or even altering the Russian peacekeeping force. “Our interests will be represented only by Russia,” Mr Bagapsh said after meeting Dmitry Medvedev, Russia’s president, recently.
Some of the blame for this situation rests with Georgia’s president, Mikheil Saakashvili. When he swept to power in 2004, he did not use his popularity to apologise for Georgia’s past actions or disown the legacy of his predecessors. By late 2004, Georgia was getting closer to a deal with Russia and a no-use-of-force agreement with Abkhazia, but neither document was signed. Mr Saakashvili said that “we are not inviting separatists to Georgia, we will ourselves return to Abkhazia.” His populism irritated the Abkhaz, as did his decision to banish Irakli Alasania, the only man the Abkhaz side trusted as a negotiator, as ambassador to the UN in New York.
In 2006 the Georgians forced their way into the upper Kodori gorge, violating a 1994 peace agreement. They said they had to clear the area of a local warlord. But Paata Zakareishvili, a Georgian analyst, believes he could have been nabbed in Tbilisi. Ruslan Kishmaria, who oversees Gali, a region where 50,000 Georgian refugees spontaneously returned after the war, says Georgia refuses to let the UN verify their return. Georgian television channels disseminate false reports of Georgians being assaulted from the Abkhaz side. Earlier this year the UN secretary-general said that “inaccurate reports originating in the Georgian media and occasionally the Georgian authorities…have contributed to growing distrust and insecurity.”
In the circumstances, it is hardly surprising that Mr Saakashvili’s latest peace plan, offering Abkhazia unlimited autonomy, was dismissed as propaganda by the Abkhaz. Mr Saakashvili announced it on Georgian television (which is blocked in Abkhazia). When it was delivered to the Abkhaz, they refused to touch it.
Georgia talks of developing free-trade zones in Abkhazia, but is yet to lift sanctions that do not work anyway. Mr Alasania, whose father was killed in the 1990s war, says that “the key to this conflict lies not in Washington or Moscow but in Tbilisi and Sukhumi…we have to take the first steps towards reconciliation.” Rebuilding trust between the two sides may take years—and even then it may not lead to full reintegration of the country. But if Georgia wants to stay democratic and prosperous, it has no other option. And if they want to preserve their sense of identity, the Abkhaz must do their bit too.
the conflict is over now anyways
Tom clancy had nothing to do with the plot of Ghost Recon, it was one of RSE's writers.
Basically, i'm a lot more worried about what geezus might know.