Kevin I added a link to this thread on the wiki, http://wiki.polycount.net/CategoryEnvironment, also your name there is a link to your new site. Thanks for pimping, inspirational as always.
This stuff has really destroyed my brain. I'm not applying for any jobs until I'm at least half as good as this. If the money runs out I may have to settle for a quarter.
Inspirational and brain destroying in equal measures.
BabelSpire is totally cool, so much detail in all the models, fantastic dreamy work.
I know you said you wouldn't but I would love to see low poly renders with normal map, maybe later as things progress?
Can someone answer this. When making the high polys for walls and such, are the brick textures and wear and tear sculpted or applied later with texture to normals over the rest of it?
Can someone answer this. When making the high polys for walls and such, are the brick textures and wear and tear sculpted or applied later with texture to normals over the rest of it?
The Ion cannon was a big deal for me, it was early on in UT3's production and this was
the first piece I made that I didn't think was a bit crap. I think I found my building style
for the set with this piece, usually its the case for me that the first couple of pieces dont
really click, then 1 piece does and I'm more comfortable.
John- Initially because it was the studio mentality, the lads on Gears team had made some
truly jaw dropping models in the years previous and I'd just never seen anyone go that
far, I wouldn't have though it was possible , or worth it.
Anyway their stuff was just bewilderingly good to someone who has never made a hipoly
model and I knew that would be the yardstick by which I could measure my progress.
Later it became clear that there would not always be any guarentee of time for me to communicate
to the texture artist that followed me, what else I would have added but didnt have time
for, or would be easier to do in the texture.
Plus I was around during the prototyping stage and when testing how far you can go
in 2d and in 3d in terms of normal map depth, 3d tended to produce a better result
most of the time.
It's also worth bearing in mind the numerous tiling bsp style dirt, rock, sand, snow, ice, gravel
textures I bodged with nivdia's normal map filter or crazybump aren't being shown here.
Theres always a time and a place for 3d and 2d work, later I'll show a piece I made with a
combination of both to make a modular concrete wall set.
Eric
Thanks, thats turning into a great resource.
Buddik
They were all modelled then zbrushed, seperating the bricks, tiles, grout, conrete from each other lets
me assign a different material to each in max so I can generate a diffuse texture when
rendering my normal map, it makes for a better guide and speedup for the texture artist.
this stuff is just amazing, it takes a few moments of open-mouthed staring to digest all these details. Apologies if this has been asked already...
...when you get concepts for this stuff is everything drawn down to the tiniest details? or do you get some freedom in how you actually detail this stuff out?
I know James Hawkins does ur character, vehicle, and weapon concepts...dunno bout enviros but ive seen their concepts as well and they are monsters! u guys have alotta talent there at epic
I had good clear concept art for most of the Necris stuff, though that leaves 50% of the work to be invented by the env artist. For all the concrete stuff in the Necris theme I just found islamic reference, such as the roof, walls. The Liandri stuff I had concept art for the Gootank
ChasmBridge, TorlanWall and Support piece. The IonCannon was based on a ww2 style
gun concept that wasn't used in Gears, so I found reference of artillery and just winged it.
The concept support wasn't strong initially at the start of the project, that changed when
Vance Kovacs started contracting on the Necris stuff, then near the end we hired Shane Pierce
and he's been making great stuff for Gears2 after a stint on the last part of UT3, he did
the goo tank concept.
Jayhawk did the concepts for the Torlan stuff and the Chasm bridge.
Hi Ror! Bit late on this, but just wanted to jump in and say IMPRESSIVE!
Congrats for the pieces, and thanks for all the useful information you have been posting in these pages.
There is just that one bit about smoothing groups that I can't quite figure out at the bottom of page 3. So if you ever have the time I'd love to hear more on this!
Pior: I think he means not to use smoothing groups on the highpoly? So the it's all facet shading and you don't get it trying to average the normals of a 90-degree corner.
Pior: When I work up a section of a concrete material in zbrush, export, polycrunch and
am ready to process in max, I select the concrete element and CLEAR ALL smoothing groups.
Zbrush automatically assigns a sort of smoothing group and the tendency is to assign
1 smoothing group to it by hand to smooth out some of the rough tesselated areas.
I don't do this.
The rough looking crackly bits may look a bit pixellated up close, you can see they are
very jaggy on the necris concrete arches and walls for instance, but by the time its processed
it still looks a little too crackly and that doesnt matter.
By the time its processed, then textured, then goes through whatever compression algorithm
the engine uses, then is anti aliased on a tv screen , that crackly stuff reads more as
concrete than it would have with a smoothing group.
Talbot: I've never read tutorials on hipoly modelling, I just kept modelling up it looks better
and I gradually learned about how to terminate edgeloops that aren't necessary without
causing pinch where I didnt want to.
The more you model new shapes the more you build up a repertoire of shapes you command
which leads to know how to splice and combine them smoothly and you gradually learn
that there are a number of different ways to create the same effect with different
modelling techniques.
I can help folks out more in this area after Gears2 goes gold.
The absolute best thing anyone looking to immitate this stuff is to just start modelling a
shape, like a cog, or an arch or a t-beam or an L beam, or spherical light orb.
Then try fusing 2 of those shapes together, deforming those shapes with the FFD modifier
and so on. Trying to leap straight in to a full design when new to modelling, or hipoly or
a new program is not a good approach, learning to command a few different base forms
first before you beging on a design is much more helpful.
Another thing thats helpful is just experimenting with the different modifiers and see what they do. I use the following often
Shell
Bevel
FFDx2 / x3 / x4
STL Check
Loft
Path Deform WSM
Bend
Cross section
Surface
CSslide(plugin from scripspot.com)
Oh thanks for the clarification! So basically when you detail a 'half organic' mesh in Zbrush like cracks in a wall, once you re-import that in max you set everything to hard edges (clear smoothing groups), so that the little facets look like hard, chipped off cement instead of some weird melted surface(like if everything is set to smoothgroup 1 for instance). Makes sense!
Also thanks for pointing out CSslide. I remember you mentionned it years ago when you started working on that highpoly stuff, I have been using it ever since and it's great. Maya equivalent of it is built in and slightly more powerful, but I expect Max to fully integrate this soon if not already.
Modifiers rule. Didn't know surface still existed, I got to check it out again!
Also someone here recently mentionned the Soulburn script collection. Still have to test this, but SplineKnotToObject and SplinePainter might be of good use. (I usually 'extract' existing edges to spline, but that one looks sounds more powerful).
Pior: I wish max would just lift Maya's unwrap tools and place them in max. That I rely
on chugnutt's UVWunwrap1.4 tools from 6 years ago as its still superior to the 'improvements'
discreet make with each update is very telling.
Some of those soulburn scripts do sound great, I'll have to check them out soon.
Alex:thanks, but don't go putting me on a pedestal, I'll only fall on my arse.
Talbot: I've never read tutorials on hipoly modelling, I just kept modelling up it looks better
and I gradually learned about how to terminate edgeloops that aren't necessary without causing pinch where I didnt want to.
This is my biggest problem with high poly modeling but your words are very good to hear and make me want to step down from thinking too big and work from the ground up so to speak. My models do nothing BUT pinch hah. It seems there aren't massive resources available to learn this kinda stuff.
I can't wait until Gears 2 goes gold and you might have some free time to share in your High-Poly learning experiences.
Thanks again for your awesome followups Kevin! Very inspiring.
Oh and can someone mention what STL Check does, in context with the discussions in this thread?
STL Check is a modifier you can place over the top of your lowpoly for instance, to check
if you have left open edges, multiple edges, double faces. It also highlights where these
areas are and I use it as a last step before unwrapping and then before export.
there's a 1.5 version of chuggnuts original uvtools (fixed up by somebody) floating around somewhere for max 9 - fixes a few things if you're interested.
lovely top drawer work by the way - I can't wait for gears 2, not wholly because of the game, but because you'll have more time to indulge us with your knowledge after it's out.
good luck with the family on the way! hope to hear from you later on.
Modifiers rule. Didn't know surface still existed, I got to check it out again!
Also someone here recently mentionned the Soulburn script collection. Still have to test this, but SplineKnotToObject and SplinePainter might be of good use. (I usually 'extract' existing edges to spline, but that one looks sounds more powerful)....
Holy crap, those SplineScripts in the SoulBurn Script collection are badass, thanks for pointing that out dude!!
Replies
Inspirational and brain destroying in equal measures.
I know you said you wouldn't but I would love to see low poly renders with normal map, maybe later as things progress?
I agree - very very nice modeling. The time spent on those assets definitely shows through in the end product
Thanks!
Scott Petty
Environment Artist
www.Buddikaman.com
Love your work man
if you like bad ass
I guess one way you can do what he did with the walls is using alpha's on a poly plain in Zbrush and extrude using Deformations and Masks.
touch
http://eat3d.com/
Trims
Roof
A Liandri piece -
Ion Cannon
The Ion cannon was a big deal for me, it was early on in UT3's production and this was
the first piece I made that I didn't think was a bit crap. I think I found my building style
for the set with this piece, usually its the case for me that the first couple of pieces dont
really click, then 1 piece does and I'm more comfortable.
John- Initially because it was the studio mentality, the lads on Gears team had made some
truly jaw dropping models in the years previous and I'd just never seen anyone go that
far, I wouldn't have though it was possible , or worth it.
Anyway their stuff was just bewilderingly good to someone who has never made a hipoly
model and I knew that would be the yardstick by which I could measure my progress.
Later it became clear that there would not always be any guarentee of time for me to communicate
to the texture artist that followed me, what else I would have added but didnt have time
for, or would be easier to do in the texture.
Plus I was around during the prototyping stage and when testing how far you can go
in 2d and in 3d in terms of normal map depth, 3d tended to produce a better result
most of the time.
It's also worth bearing in mind the numerous tiling bsp style dirt, rock, sand, snow, ice, gravel
textures I bodged with nivdia's normal map filter or crazybump aren't being shown here.
Theres always a time and a place for 3d and 2d work, later I'll show a piece I made with a
combination of both to make a modular concrete wall set.
Eric
Thanks, thats turning into a great resource.
Buddik
They were all modelled then zbrushed, seperating the bricks, tiles, grout, conrete from each other lets
me assign a different material to each in max so I can generate a diffuse texture when
rendering my normal map, it makes for a better guide and speedup for the texture artist.
Thanks for the encouragement.
...when you get concepts for this stuff is everything drawn down to the tiniest details? or do you get some freedom in how you actually detail this stuff out?
ChasmBridge, TorlanWall and Support piece. The IonCannon was based on a ww2 style
gun concept that wasn't used in Gears, so I found reference of artillery and just winged it.
The concept support wasn't strong initially at the start of the project, that changed when
Vance Kovacs started contracting on the Necris stuff, then near the end we hired Shane Pierce
and he's been making great stuff for Gears2 after a stint on the last part of UT3, he did
the goo tank concept.
Jayhawk did the concepts for the Torlan stuff and the Chasm bridge.
you sick bastard.
You registered here just to post that and it's already mentioned directly under the one you quoted..
Congrats for the pieces, and thanks for all the useful information you have been posting in these pages.
There is just that one bit about smoothing groups that I can't quite figure out at the bottom of page 3. So if you ever have the time I'd love to hear more on this!
Can't wait to see more!
I might be wrong though!
am ready to process in max, I select the concrete element and CLEAR ALL smoothing groups.
Zbrush automatically assigns a sort of smoothing group and the tendency is to assign
1 smoothing group to it by hand to smooth out some of the rough tesselated areas.
I don't do this.
The rough looking crackly bits may look a bit pixellated up close, you can see they are
very jaggy on the necris concrete arches and walls for instance, but by the time its processed
it still looks a little too crackly and that doesnt matter.
By the time its processed, then textured, then goes through whatever compression algorithm
the engine uses, then is anti aliased on a tv screen , that crackly stuff reads more as
concrete than it would have with a smoothing group.
Talbot: I've never read tutorials on hipoly modelling, I just kept modelling up it looks better
and I gradually learned about how to terminate edgeloops that aren't necessary without
causing pinch where I didnt want to.
The more you model new shapes the more you build up a repertoire of shapes you command
which leads to know how to splice and combine them smoothly and you gradually learn
that there are a number of different ways to create the same effect with different
modelling techniques.
I can help folks out more in this area after Gears2 goes gold.
The absolute best thing anyone looking to immitate this stuff is to just start modelling a
shape, like a cog, or an arch or a t-beam or an L beam, or spherical light orb.
Then try fusing 2 of those shapes together, deforming those shapes with the FFD modifier
and so on. Trying to leap straight in to a full design when new to modelling, or hipoly or
a new program is not a good approach, learning to command a few different base forms
first before you beging on a design is much more helpful.
Another thing thats helpful is just experimenting with the different modifiers and see what they do. I use the following often
Shell
Bevel
FFDx2 / x3 / x4
STL Check
Loft
Path Deform WSM
Bend
Cross section
Surface
CSslide(plugin from scripspot.com)
Also thanks for pointing out CSslide. I remember you mentionned it years ago when you started working on that highpoly stuff, I have been using it ever since and it's great. Maya equivalent of it is built in and slightly more powerful, but I expect Max to fully integrate this soon if not already.
Modifiers rule. Didn't know surface still existed, I got to check it out again!
Also someone here recently mentionned the Soulburn script collection. Still have to test this, but SplineKnotToObject and SplinePainter might be of good use. (I usually 'extract' existing edges to spline, but that one looks sounds more powerful).
http://www.neilblevins.com/soulburnscripts/soulburnscripts.htm
Thanks again for the insights!
on chugnutt's UVWunwrap1.4 tools from 6 years ago as its still superior to the 'improvements'
discreet make with each update is very telling.
Some of those soulburn scripts do sound great, I'll have to check them out soon.
Alex:thanks, but don't go putting me on a pedestal, I'll only fall on my arse.
This is my biggest problem with high poly modeling but your words are very good to hear and make me want to step down from thinking too big and work from the ground up so to speak. My models do nothing BUT pinch hah. It seems there aren't massive resources available to learn this kinda stuff.
I can't wait until Gears 2 goes gold and you might have some free time to share in your High-Poly learning experiences.
Thanks again for your awesome followups Kevin! Very inspiring.
Oh and can someone mention what STL Check does, in context with the discussions in this thread?
There's some really inspirational stuff there!
if you have left open edges, multiple edges, double faces. It also highlights where these
areas are and I use it as a last step before unwrapping and then before export.
lovely top drawer work by the way - I can't wait for gears 2, not wholly because of the game, but because you'll have more time to indulge us with your knowledge after it's out.
good luck with the family on the way! hope to hear from you later on.
Holy crap, those SplineScripts in the SoulBurn Script collection are badass, thanks for pointing that out dude!!