I thought it would be obvious to anyone that the petitioners should be ashamed of the motive behind the petition, let alone the rudeness of it all.
Once a game is out, and as wildly popular as the Diablo series it becomes more than just a company matter. When Blizzard alters the artistic direction of the series they are treading on people's expectations and wishes. Those people have a right to whine and demand change because it's their dollars that have made Diablo so popular, and it's their dollars that will make D3 a huge seller (even if they whine about it's style). They shouldn't feel ashamed for asking for a return to the style they love, just feel stupid for petitioning since they know it won't work.
Also, while you may scoff at the 13,000 signatures, there are many more who are miffed at the style (raises hand) but won't go signing petitions, so in reality there are probably loads of Diablo fans who aren't so hot on the new art direction. But they'll buy it anyways cause Blizzard delivers awesome gameplay. And in all likelihood as I said the style could be more or less brought to bear with post-processing. (Though I do think a bit of texture work on some areas would go a long way to making it grittier)
What the hell is everyone whining about? The artistic style of a very small part of ONE dungeon showcased?
The game looks amazing, from what LITTLE WE'VE SEEN. I'll certainly be picking it up, saying goodbye to my life, and hello to Diablo3.
The internet has bred this whole blog generation of cry babies and bitches that will whine and whine until their heart's content. Someone can come out with a fantastic game, superb film, well polished piece of art...and someone out there will cry about how the blue should be purple...with 10 thousand little trolls following them.
This guy obviously has the attitude that they have 10 WoW fans to make up for every disappointed Diablo fan. If you are a game company with 2 fantasy franchises, it seems like a dumb move to not differentiate them from each other as much as possible.
Blizzard has one type of fan and they love the art direction and game play of their games.
The rest are customers. They really don't understand why Blizzard makes the artistic choices it does. I see these customers making a lot of noise.
And by make noise I mean the classic MMO message board mentality: "Feel significant by pissing their time away trying to get a company to make some insignificant change, and by doing so, some how assume ownership over the entire project"
In other words attempt to hold a company hostage, so their life can have meaning.
It makes sense for the company to keep on doing what it does and make the calls it thinks are right rather then bend to whim of every John Q Customer just because they make a lot of noise. In my house that makes for spoiled children and we don't put up with it.
Most of the customers have proven themselves to be people who can't make up their mind or even express themselves thoughtfully. Blizzards core is made out of artistic integrity and when Blizzard starts to trade that on the open market, they have a serious problem.
It's not a "fuck you" to the customers its more "this is who we are, this is what we make, and if your suggestions make sense for us, we might do it. But don't expect us to bend to pressure because its exerted. Especially when we don't agree". They would be selling out on their biggest strength and it would undermine the company at its core.
I doubt they would ever come right out and say it like that. Blizzard is a great company that loves its fan base and listens. They wouldn't talk that harshly to their fans especially the WoW customers as they tend to get their panties in a twist just standing still. I think WoW has brought some new people to the party and they might claim past ownership but that doesn't mean they understand the choices that went on or should really have a large say in its art direction. These people might need a little help fitting in at first but hopefully they'll start to understand why the answer is sometimes, no. We think our art direction is the best way forward for us.
Blizzard has one type of fan and they love the art direction and game play of their games.
The rest are customers. They really don't understand why Blizzard makes the artistic choices it does. I see these customers making a lot of noise.
That's a pretty classic snob argument, and is just as ineffective when relating to video games as to cinema or books or what-have-you. So what, blizzard should just bask in the glow of fanboy butt-kissing? Nobody is allowed to voice valid artistic criticism (and really, when thousands are whining you know you've struck a nerve and the crits have a point)? They can cover up their obvious one-track style and riding on the coattails of Warhammer Fantasy by saying it's "for fans only" and the rest of us plebes can suck it?
No, if I don't like it I'll say it. Talk is cheap anyways, so it doesn't cost either me or Blizzard anything. And it's getting apparent to me that for the big awesome powerhouse they are they're developing into a one-trick pony. If anything they can and should take a page out of Valve's book and look at the wild difference between HL2 and TF2 and how utterly awesome it is to have very distinct IPs rather than World of ____craft.
So what, blizzard should just bask in the glow of fanboy butt-kissing? Nobody is allowed to voice valid artistic criticism (and really, when thousands are whining you know you've struck a nerve and the crits have a point)?
Not at all. Voice your artistic criticism just know that what you see as improvements might not match their goals. It doesn't give you the right to brow beat them into doing what you want just because you think you're right.
The difference between fan and noise maker, is that a fan will only push so far and realize what they're up in arms about isn't really all that important to the overall game. They'll also play the game and then make an informed opinion. A fan won't resort to holding their breath because they know they'll turn blue, pass out and wake up feeling stupid.
You need to ask yourself are the choices they are making so drastic that it will impact how much fun you'll have playing the game? Because you can't play the game yet you really can't say for certain. Does it really justify the saber rattling go on? Did WoW drag a bunch of people (who are used to complaining) into the Blizzard fan base?
How much of a right do customers have to force the direction of a game on the company making it? So Blizzard should just bend over and give up their artistic freedom to people who "THINK" they know what they want?
Sure its a new path for Diablo. But you haven't walked it yet so give it a fair shake when you do. Don't do yourself a huge disservice now by choosing to jade yourself against something thats familiar but new.
Don't blow hot air just to be part of the masses blowing wind. Make up your own mind and make sure you do it with all the facts, not just half cooked up intertube rhetoric. Don't feel threatened by change, be cautions, investigate it and if you like it embrace it, but don't run from it just because its not exactly what you envisioned it to be. Things don't always work out like we want, but that doesn't mean we can't enjoy it and even come to love it or that we should force our brand of "like" on everyone else.
At what point should they say "hey you know what, if you think you can do better, feel free to start up your own company and be the Blizzard killer"? Because honestly if it was my company, I'd tell you not to buy it, sit on your ideas and spin (if I didn't agree with them) or feel free to mod it into the craptastic nexgen wonder you want it to be. But don't keep blowing wind in my direction thinking it will change the way I choose to fly my flag.
Once a game is out, and as wildly popular as the Diablo series it becomes more than just a company matter. When Blizzard alters the artistic direction of the series they are treading on people's expectations and wishes. Those people have a right to whine and demand change because it's their dollars that have made Diablo so popular, and it's their dollars that will make D3 a huge seller (even if they whine about it's style). They shouldn't feel ashamed for asking for a return to the style they love, just feel stupid for petitioning since they know it won't work.
sure anyone has a right to whine and demand change, and blizzard as a company who always seems to march to it's own beat has a right to ignore all the whining and demands and make the game they want to make.
Personally i think the art looks fantastic. Especially in motion. really nice animations going on. In my book moving realisticly (or non realisticly as the case might be) does much more to engross me in a game than making the textures grittier ever will.
To me this just sounds like a repeat of all the squabbling that went on before wind waker was released. That game ooozed style. A classic in my book (but it would be better if they removed all that sailing filler, blech).
anyways, my only squabble with the game is the input method. I can only play point and click hack and slash games for so long before i get sick of clicking. I much prefer to play these games with a controller ala Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance. But still i'm pretty sure i'll be buying the game with everyone else and hopefully will get some multiplayer in with some other polycounters!!
I'm not phased by the art direction blizzard choose. I know it will be polished and refined either way.
However, what i am concerned about is the gore factor. Seeing the high def video with that monster chomping the barbarian in half was nothing short of awesome, which leads me to believe this title won't be granted classification in Australia.
I basically agree with Vig. Blizzard should make the games they want to make, and should avoid just doing fan service. At the same time, why would their artistic muse make them want to do this?
Didn't we hear a similar complaint about the looks of WOW before it was released? And multitudes claimed they would not play such an "ugly" game. Now look who has 10million + subscribers.
Blizzard caught some bad press because of the low polycount look in late alpha/early beta of WoW, and they ended up going back and up-rezzing all of the character models.
I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard is already planning on making some of the changes that the petitioners are complaining about, and I'd bet money that things like light radius are planned but NYI.
It doesn't look anything like it to me, aside from the good handpainted textures -- the art direction has literally nothing in common with ti, aside from big things holding swords.
I don't think I've seen a boss rip a characters head off and then prance around with there entrails and blood on his chest in wow.
Thats just bad ass.
Agreed. I'm wondering if that was a one hit kill, or if its context sensitive (i.e. if your characters life gets low enough, a boss monster can perform an awesome fatality on you). Besides that...
...I'm in agreement with whoever has said that having muted colors should be an option that you can either enable or disable. I for one like the color style, and it doesn't read as WoW to me. It just reads as no longer being restricted by the color palettes available when Diablo came out. Besides that, light radius in dungeons was alright, but I never understood it at higher levels when you can basically see 90% of whats on screen anyway...
yeah illusions I would think it's something like boss rolls a crit and if it's enough to kill then perform action. Gameplay wise it would make sense and not piss ya off to bad. Though if your playing hardcore that would suck balls. lol.
blizzard should ban everyone on that pettition from battlenet.
that 17k would be just a drop in the bucket of players. but most likely blizzard does not care. because despite the crying all 17k of those tards will still buy the game.
Yes, the internet gives you a voice. That does not mean that you should use it on every single pixel of information that crosses your self-indulgent eyes.
I hate the ME! ME! ME! attitude the 'net enables. There is only Read/React it seems.. a scant 1% seem to have the cognitive capacity to think about things before their reaction.
Telling a company like Blizzard how they should make the game is like telling a cop to not give you a speeding ticket because you 'pay their salary.'
(And go ahead, pick the analogy apart, I know you want to. 'players arent breaking the law' blah blah blah)
Telling a company like Blizzard how they should make the game is like telling a cop to not give you a speeding ticket because you 'pay their salary.'
customers expressing opinions on how to make a product more appealing to them isn't such a bad idea. Blizzard is making a product to sell, to make money - they're not just doing this for some higher calling that shouldn't ever be questioned.
now stop expressing your opinion on the net. you hate that! !
Not at all. Voice your artistic criticism just know that what you see as improvements might not match their goals. It doesn't give you the right to brow beat them into doing what you want just because you think you're right.
Nobody is browbeating them into doing what they want, unless you actually think that there are a bunch of spineless pansies over at blizzard who cry into their pillows at night because some fans made noise. It's just ranting, critique, and fanboy bullshit. Nothing to get anal about.
You need to ask yourself are the choices they are making so drastic that it will impact how much fun you'll have playing the game?
Once again, this just doesn't cut it as an argument. No, it won't affect gameplay, but does that mean we should just turn a blind eye to graphics? As artists I think we can all understand that there is room for critique even in "perfection". As for the petitioners... eh, Halo tard types for the most part probably.
How much of a right do customers have to force the direction of a game on the company making it? So Blizzard should just bend over and give up their artistic freedom to people who "THINK" they know what they want?
When 17,000 people voice one opinion there is a kernel of truth somewhere in there. As artists and businessmen that should warrant some thought at least. But then again it's a petition so there's hardly force involved here. Nothing to get your panties in a bunch over. It's not like 17,000 fans are filing a class action lawsuit or something.
Make up your own mind and make sure you do it with all the facts, not just half cooked up intertube rhetoric. Don't feel threatened by change, be cautions, investigate it and if you like it embrace it, but don't run from it just because its not exactly what you envisioned it to be. Things don't always work out like we want, but that doesn't mean we can't enjoy it and even come to love it or that we should force our brand of "like" on everyone else.
Hey, I did make up my own mind. Ironically, the more I see of d3, and the more I go and replay d2 the less I like it. It feels like they need to push the painterly style, license the Conan soundtrack and make a Frazetta fantasy game. That would fit like a glove. (Riding on a horse slaying alien apes and dinosaurs with Riders of Doom playing? Oh fuck YEAH!)
Diablo, meh, not so much.
At what point should they say "hey you know what, if you think you can do better, feel free to start up your own company and be the Blizzard killer"?
At no point, because being a dick doesn't pay, because you can afford to have people bitch, and because they'd bitch no matter what. Blizzard knows how to handle this, but apparently a few people in this thread aren't big fans of free speech and artistic criticism. Which is damn ironic for a community of artists.
Yes but there is a HUGE difference in expressing an opinion on how to make a game more appealing to the userbase and making an online petition (for whatever amount those things count for) DEMANDING that a company conform to their userbase's ideas.
A certain politeness and courtesy can go a long way along with respect that a company such as Blizzard knows what they are doing. Even if my favourite authors/artists change thier styles to something I disagree with I still respect that it is their creation and they can do whatever they want with it.
Did anyone even read the petition? It's quite reasonably worded, and not the "ZOMG GIVE ME DARK AND GRITTY MOTHERFUCKERS I DEMAND IT!11one" diatribe it's being made out to be.
17,000 is less then 1% of the sales they had on D2 over 7 years ago. Not saying that they don't have a voice but really it a pretty small amount and the people that like it this way probably wont start a petition.
And it's getting apparent to me that for the big awesome powerhouse they are they're developing into a one-trick pony.
POP QUIZ TIME!!!
Epic makes futuristic FPS games featuring beefcake space marines. The differences between the Gears and Unreal franchises are not especially consequential in terms of art or gameplay. Epic haven't shown any inclination to explore significantly new territory with their work - they're refining their primary design rather than branching out.
Blizzard makes games in three different genres (action RPG, RTS, MMO), spanning three different genres (sci-fi, traditional fantasy, gothic/horror fantasy.) Historically, these games all look different, with clearly distinct art styles. However, recent trade show footage reveals that the new action RPG game looks a little more like the MMO/RTS games than previous versions did.
Question 1: Identify from the above which company is developing into a one-trick pony.
Question 2: Give examples of how this is a critical or commercial problem for either company.
For those playing along at home, I'm not slamming Epic, just illustrating the point.
Question 1: Identify from the above which company is developing into a one-trick pony.
Question 2: Give examples of how this is a critical or commercial problem for either company.
1) Blizzard. Epic was always a one trick pony.
2) Ut3 wasn't exaclty a rousing success, and if it wasn't for the engine tech and licensing epic wouldn't be the big powerhouse we know.
Epic while you may say is a one trick pony as per their games Gears of War and Unreal I don't think this is true, I believe there is a clear reason behind this.
Gears seems imo to have been used to test out their new tech, it had been in development for quite some time and I believe I read at some point that a geforce 7 series was the first card able to run the Unreal Engine3 tech demo aka Gears at a respectable frame rate.
Also as far as Epic goes I don't think you can say they are developing into a one trick pony as this really is their only style, they have never shown any others besides the old Jazz the Jack Rabbit style of game play. I also do not believe that this is hurting them mainly because this has been their style for so long and people still line up to buy their work.
Blizzard:
1: I think it is far to early to classify Blizzard as a one trick pony or even begin to. They have shown that they are able to change things up. Take the history of Warcraft for example. They started out with three rts games, two of which were in the same style of art. The third was a dramatic change from the previous two. I believe this to be their first avenue into a brand new style of texturing for them. This could also be the limitations of the engine and computers at the time but from a broad perspective looking into the future as with the return of Warcraft as World of Warcraft it is easy to see that they traveled the new art style into WoW. One could then argue that with 4 titles in a series each having two with similar art styles shows an ability to change and grow.
Starcraft on the other hand is just receiving its second showing but seems to be keeping the same style even with the switch two a completely 3d engine. This is another reason that Blizzard could not be classified into a one trick pony. If this concept of transitioning into one basic style to save on production time or to link titles and branding together were true then Starcraft would also be getting a new face lift to this simple yet effective style.
Diablo, where to begin:
You have a brand that has really only had 3 titles. I count the expansion in this set because of the amount of content involved in it. The first Diablo game was a brand new style for them. You go from rts to Action Rpg and it was a winner for them. They new that to make a second title they had to change things to conform to what fans wanted. Walking around a dungeon was out, running had to be implemented. Better effects, animations, environments, everything was scaled up and they did listen to the players as to what needed to be done to make a better game. You also have to realize that those games were 3qrt sprite based games. They could make the environments, characters, creatures, and effects as detailed as they wanted at the time because in the end you were just running the sprites. The transition into a 3d engine has its limitations. I am not going to go into the limitations because we all know what they are but I feel like Blizzard made the perfect choice in switching to a more WoW type style for the Diablo series.
It brings two games now with similar feels together and links them in the minds of gamers. I say similar feels because as soon as they took Warcraft and turned it into an MMO they placed an RTS and made it more like Diablo. To take Diablo and bring a bit of Warcraft into the mix is smart.
Myself I love the style of WoW but I am not one to play "pay to play" games. If I pay 60 dollars or more for a game I don't feel like I should have to shell out a monthly fee to play it. With Diablo made in this style they take all the gamers like myself who would love to pick up WoW and they give us a chance to do just that.
2: I don't think they are a one trick pony so I don't see this switch hurting them at all.
sry to say this but, those who complain about the Colorful Art Direction are judging way to quickly because all the have seen up to now is a tiny portion of the game X years before its release. Its fine to have an opinion and express it, but you need to consider that blizzard is full of talented and experienced artists that know whats best for the game, they are more qualified than anyone to know what works and what doesn't in a game. Just look at Blizzard's portfolio, they are the best in the industry and have never failed to deliver, so why would Diablo III be any different. I feel the people on the petition are probably whining because they wished to be on the dev team to have more ownership over the project. (as Tulkamir was saying if I recall correctly). I dont blame 'em for it.
If you read the article, they are using the colors for contrast in the game; the more you get into the game, the grittier it will look. They could not achieve this effect is the game's environment were always colorless.
To me, Diablo III is looking awesome, it seems they have pushed the animations and FX even further in this sequel.
If you read the article, they are using the colors for contrast in the game; the more you get into the game, the grittier it will look. They could not achieve this effect is the game's environment were always colorless.
Err.... lots of colours does not mean lots of contrast (atleast not in any meaningful way). In fact, I'd say you get more meaningful contrast with careful selective use of colours.
Not saying that in any peticular relationship to DIII, I just see repeated comments on "more colour, more contrast" everywhere I go it seems.
Err.... lots of colours does not mean lots of contrast (atleast not in any meaningful way). In fact, I'd say you get more meaningful contrast with careful selective use of colours.
Not saying that in any peticular relationship to DIII, I just see repeated comments on "more colour, more contrast" everywhere I go it seems.
I meant they might put contrast in theme of colors. In other words;
Early game
> Very colorful ,
End game
> Lots of grays or brown with small accent of colors. ( Not "colorful")
contrast between what you see at the begging and at the end.
I've played Diablo 2 and Starcraft more than any human should be allowed to play a game ( competetively, and in a legit D2 PvP clan).
And the one style choice that bothered me about the SECOND game from the First game was how I wasn't ever scared witless in the second one.
In the first one, when we first encountered the Butcher, my friends and I (co-op) actually screamed HOLY F**KING CHRIST! When we saw the meat cleaving Demon in a slaughtering room of human corpses on hooks. We were actually afraid to enter the lower levels of the catacombs, let alone HELL.
The second one introduced a LOT of colours, and more obscure levels with brighter pallettes (Arcane Sanctuary+Secret Cow Level = WTF) but they still had the random caves and dungeons to go through.
I think the sentiment of the Diablo community, is that the introduction of such a colourful pallette in this third game seems to kill off any hope that it will scare us witless in places, and have the same vibe and ambient feeling that World of Warcraft has (as opposed to being primarily Neo-Gothic/Hiberno Saxon with lighting inspired more by Michelangelo Caravaggio).
But I remember when the knock on the pre-Starcraft screenshots, was that it was the Purple and Green Warcraft in Space. The pre-Diablo 2 screenshots were getting slagged for not being in 3D, and only being 640x480 on release (800x600 in the expansion). So I don't think anyone is doubting Blizzards ability to make an insanely amazing game.
I was worried that both SC2 and D3 looked more like graphical enhancements rather than NEW games, but as many other posters mentioned, it's f**king BLIZZARD, and there's no way these games won't be fun.
In the first one, when we first encountered the Butcher, my friends and I (co-op) actually screamed HOLY F**KING CHRIST! When we saw the meat cleaving Demon in a slaughtering room of human corpses on hooks. We were actually afraid to enter the lower levels of the catacombs, let alone HELL.
Oh hell yes! I am still to this day afraid of the Butcher. That was a truly terrible boss made all the worse by the fact that to beat him you had to have good timing and the ability to mash your mouse button very fast.
I actually replayed the original recently and what you say about the horror feel is spot on. The first game felt far more gothic and dark than d2, and the atmosphere in places is almost palpable. D2 traded that in for much larger areas and variety so it was ok, but the world itself was still dark and gritty.
With D3 it looks like they're going for even less of a horror atmosphere and offsetting it by making everything pretty and exaggerated. It's not the colors that are the problem though, it's the way in which they're used. D2 was a very colorful game, especially when you had 8 party members spamming spells everywhere, but the feel was still dark. D3's style is far closer to WoW than to the original Diablo even if there are those who refuse to admit it; not because of colors, but because the characters and world are rendered too cleanly and with a comicbook exaggeration. Where the Barbarian was a big meat chunk with solid armor now he has big Warhammer shoulder pads, and where dungeons and woods felt like oppressive holes unfit for human presence they now feel like two steps from a children's book setting or Monkey Island backdrop.
I'm still thinking about why it could make some people actually angry that some studios make sweet looking games that rely more on talent than tech, it's a *really* strange one. I can actually understand people getting angry with the exact opposite approach. Like EA releasing Crytek with the requirement of buying a new pc? Getting mad about that seems to make some actual logical sense. But the other way around? I just can't wrap my head around why that would piss people off. Bizarre.
Congrats SouL, it's looks spectacular. The Art style, the models, lighting, animation, all awesome stuff. The physics look amazing too, and heck it all looks like a lot of fun.
And honestly, If people think this looks like WoW, they might have another look at these two games side by side. There is a very significant difference in the texture style, treatment of form and sophistication of lighting and rendering.
Haha! Thanks!
I missed the thread and just general announcement reaction. Haven't had access to the PC in weeks. Good to know folks are excited about our game!
---
I didn't know where else to put this and I didn't want to start another Diablo 3 thread...
I was just browsing some of the D3 screen shots and was struck by a clever little trick that dawned on me here. It's really simple I'm sure it's no big deal but, check out the blending on the stone tile slabs assets. I just love verts, they are so powerful. Pretty clever use here... I mean it's simple and I've done similar tricks - but it just seemed to work really well here, with the style and everything, it left me impressed how well it blended from 3d to 2d.. it looks like vert alpha blending at any rate. It would make more sense than using a map. Anyway, the energy drinks make me ramble...
Thanks, i check these boards all the time and i missed that...
Ah well now I know its because he is starting a company outside the games industry. Still pretty strange, many would only dream about making a such highly anticipated game and now he quits in the middle of it.. start the company later I would say :P
Replies
Once a game is out, and as wildly popular as the Diablo series it becomes more than just a company matter. When Blizzard alters the artistic direction of the series they are treading on people's expectations and wishes. Those people have a right to whine and demand change because it's their dollars that have made Diablo so popular, and it's their dollars that will make D3 a huge seller (even if they whine about it's style). They shouldn't feel ashamed for asking for a return to the style they love, just feel stupid for petitioning since they know it won't work.
Also, while you may scoff at the 13,000 signatures, there are many more who are miffed at the style (raises hand) but won't go signing petitions, so in reality there are probably loads of Diablo fans who aren't so hot on the new art direction. But they'll buy it anyways cause Blizzard delivers awesome gameplay. And in all likelihood as I said the style could be more or less brought to bear with post-processing. (Though I do think a bit of texture work on some areas would go a long way to making it grittier)
The game looks amazing, from what LITTLE WE'VE SEEN. I'll certainly be picking it up, saying goodbye to my life, and hello to Diablo3.
The internet has bred this whole blog generation of cry babies and bitches that will whine and whine until their heart's content. Someone can come out with a fantastic game, superb film, well polished piece of art...and someone out there will cry about how the blue should be purple...with 10 thousand little trolls following them.
bah.
The rest are customers. They really don't understand why Blizzard makes the artistic choices it does. I see these customers making a lot of noise.
And by make noise I mean the classic MMO message board mentality: "Feel significant by pissing their time away trying to get a company to make some insignificant change, and by doing so, some how assume ownership over the entire project"
In other words attempt to hold a company hostage, so their life can have meaning.
It makes sense for the company to keep on doing what it does and make the calls it thinks are right rather then bend to whim of every John Q Customer just because they make a lot of noise. In my house that makes for spoiled children and we don't put up with it.
Most of the customers have proven themselves to be people who can't make up their mind or even express themselves thoughtfully. Blizzards core is made out of artistic integrity and when Blizzard starts to trade that on the open market, they have a serious problem.
It's not a "fuck you" to the customers its more "this is who we are, this is what we make, and if your suggestions make sense for us, we might do it. But don't expect us to bend to pressure because its exerted. Especially when we don't agree". They would be selling out on their biggest strength and it would undermine the company at its core.
I doubt they would ever come right out and say it like that. Blizzard is a great company that loves its fan base and listens. They wouldn't talk that harshly to their fans especially the WoW customers as they tend to get their panties in a twist just standing still. I think WoW has brought some new people to the party and they might claim past ownership but that doesn't mean they understand the choices that went on or should really have a large say in its art direction. These people might need a little help fitting in at first but hopefully they'll start to understand why the answer is sometimes, no. We think our art direction is the best way forward for us.
That's a pretty classic snob argument, and is just as ineffective when relating to video games as to cinema or books or what-have-you. So what, blizzard should just bask in the glow of fanboy butt-kissing? Nobody is allowed to voice valid artistic criticism (and really, when thousands are whining you know you've struck a nerve and the crits have a point)? They can cover up their obvious one-track style and riding on the coattails of Warhammer Fantasy by saying it's "for fans only" and the rest of us plebes can suck it?
No, if I don't like it I'll say it. Talk is cheap anyways, so it doesn't cost either me or Blizzard anything. And it's getting apparent to me that for the big awesome powerhouse they are they're developing into a one-trick pony. If anything they can and should take a page out of Valve's book and look at the wild difference between HL2 and TF2 and how utterly awesome it is to have very distinct IPs rather than World of ____craft.
The difference between fan and noise maker, is that a fan will only push so far and realize what they're up in arms about isn't really all that important to the overall game. They'll also play the game and then make an informed opinion. A fan won't resort to holding their breath because they know they'll turn blue, pass out and wake up feeling stupid.
You need to ask yourself are the choices they are making so drastic that it will impact how much fun you'll have playing the game? Because you can't play the game yet you really can't say for certain. Does it really justify the saber rattling go on? Did WoW drag a bunch of people (who are used to complaining) into the Blizzard fan base?
How much of a right do customers have to force the direction of a game on the company making it? So Blizzard should just bend over and give up their artistic freedom to people who "THINK" they know what they want?
Sure its a new path for Diablo. But you haven't walked it yet so give it a fair shake when you do. Don't do yourself a huge disservice now by choosing to jade yourself against something thats familiar but new.
Don't blow hot air just to be part of the masses blowing wind. Make up your own mind and make sure you do it with all the facts, not just half cooked up intertube rhetoric. Don't feel threatened by change, be cautions, investigate it and if you like it embrace it, but don't run from it just because its not exactly what you envisioned it to be. Things don't always work out like we want, but that doesn't mean we can't enjoy it and even come to love it or that we should force our brand of "like" on everyone else.
At what point should they say "hey you know what, if you think you can do better, feel free to start up your own company and be the Blizzard killer"? Because honestly if it was my company, I'd tell you not to buy it, sit on your ideas and spin (if I didn't agree with them) or feel free to mod it into the craptastic nexgen wonder you want it to be. But don't keep blowing wind in my direction thinking it will change the way I choose to fly my flag.
sure anyone has a right to whine and demand change, and blizzard as a company who always seems to march to it's own beat has a right to ignore all the whining and demands and make the game they want to make.
Personally i think the art looks fantastic. Especially in motion. really nice animations going on. In my book moving realisticly (or non realisticly as the case might be) does much more to engross me in a game than making the textures grittier ever will.
To me this just sounds like a repeat of all the squabbling that went on before wind waker was released. That game ooozed style. A classic in my book (but it would be better if they removed all that sailing filler, blech).
anyways, my only squabble with the game is the input method. I can only play point and click hack and slash games for so long before i get sick of clicking. I much prefer to play these games with a controller ala Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance. But still i'm pretty sure i'll be buying the game with everyone else and hopefully will get some multiplayer in with some other polycounters!!
However, what i am concerned about is the gore factor. Seeing the high def video with that monster chomping the barbarian in half was nothing short of awesome, which leads me to believe this title won't be granted classification in Australia.
Blizzard caught some bad press because of the low polycount look in late alpha/early beta of WoW, and they ended up going back and up-rezzing all of the character models.
I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard is already planning on making some of the changes that the petitioners are complaining about, and I'd bet money that things like light radius are planned but NYI.
It doesn't look anything like it to me, aside from the good handpainted textures -- the art direction has literally nothing in common with ti, aside from big things holding swords.
Thats just bad ass.
Agreed. I'm wondering if that was a one hit kill, or if its context sensitive (i.e. if your characters life gets low enough, a boss monster can perform an awesome fatality on you). Besides that...
...I'm in agreement with whoever has said that having muted colors should be an option that you can either enable or disable. I for one like the color style, and it doesn't read as WoW to me. It just reads as no longer being restricted by the color palettes available when Diablo came out. Besides that, light radius in dungeons was alright, but I never understood it at higher levels when you can basically see 90% of whats on screen anyway...
that 17k would be just a drop in the bucket of players. but most likely blizzard does not care. because despite the crying all 17k of those tards will still buy the game.
I hate the ME! ME! ME! attitude the 'net enables. There is only Read/React it seems.. a scant 1% seem to have the cognitive capacity to think about things before their reaction.
Telling a company like Blizzard how they should make the game is like telling a cop to not give you a speeding ticket because you 'pay their salary.'
(And go ahead, pick the analogy apart, I know you want to. 'players arent breaking the law' blah blah blah)
Yes, please ban them. That's 17k jacktards I won't have to deal with if I choose to play online.
customers expressing opinions on how to make a product more appealing to them isn't such a bad idea. Blizzard is making a product to sell, to make money - they're not just doing this for some higher calling that shouldn't ever be questioned.
now stop expressing your opinion on the net. you hate that!
Nobody is browbeating them into doing what they want, unless you actually think that there are a bunch of spineless pansies over at blizzard who cry into their pillows at night because some fans made noise. It's just ranting, critique, and fanboy bullshit. Nothing to get anal about.
Once again, this just doesn't cut it as an argument. No, it won't affect gameplay, but does that mean we should just turn a blind eye to graphics? As artists I think we can all understand that there is room for critique even in "perfection". As for the petitioners... eh, Halo tard types for the most part probably.
When 17,000 people voice one opinion there is a kernel of truth somewhere in there. As artists and businessmen that should warrant some thought at least. But then again it's a petition so there's hardly force involved here. Nothing to get your panties in a bunch over. It's not like 17,000 fans are filing a class action lawsuit or something.
Hey, I did make up my own mind. Ironically, the more I see of d3, and the more I go and replay d2 the less I like it. It feels like they need to push the painterly style, license the Conan soundtrack and make a Frazetta fantasy game. That would fit like a glove. (Riding on a horse slaying alien apes and dinosaurs with Riders of Doom playing? Oh fuck YEAH!)
Diablo, meh, not so much.
At no point, because being a dick doesn't pay, because you can afford to have people bitch, and because they'd bitch no matter what. Blizzard knows how to handle this, but apparently a few people in this thread aren't big fans of free speech and artistic criticism. Which is damn ironic for a community of artists.
A certain politeness and courtesy can go a long way along with respect that a company such as Blizzard knows what they are doing. Even if my favourite authors/artists change thier styles to something I disagree with I still respect that it is their creation and they can do whatever they want with it.
POP QUIZ TIME!!!
Epic makes futuristic FPS games featuring beefcake space marines. The differences between the Gears and Unreal franchises are not especially consequential in terms of art or gameplay. Epic haven't shown any inclination to explore significantly new territory with their work - they're refining their primary design rather than branching out.
Blizzard makes games in three different genres (action RPG, RTS, MMO), spanning three different genres (sci-fi, traditional fantasy, gothic/horror fantasy.) Historically, these games all look different, with clearly distinct art styles. However, recent trade show footage reveals that the new action RPG game looks a little more like the MMO/RTS games than previous versions did.
Question 1: Identify from the above which company is developing into a one-trick pony.
Question 2: Give examples of how this is a critical or commercial problem for either company.
For those playing along at home, I'm not slamming Epic, just illustrating the point.
1) Blizzard. Epic was always a one trick pony.
2) Ut3 wasn't exaclty a rousing success, and if it wasn't for the engine tech and licensing epic wouldn't be the big powerhouse we know.
Gears seems imo to have been used to test out their new tech, it had been in development for quite some time and I believe I read at some point that a geforce 7 series was the first card able to run the Unreal Engine3 tech demo aka Gears at a respectable frame rate.
Also as far as Epic goes I don't think you can say they are developing into a one trick pony as this really is their only style, they have never shown any others besides the old Jazz the Jack Rabbit style of game play. I also do not believe that this is hurting them mainly because this has been their style for so long and people still line up to buy their work.
Blizzard:
1: I think it is far to early to classify Blizzard as a one trick pony or even begin to. They have shown that they are able to change things up. Take the history of Warcraft for example. They started out with three rts games, two of which were in the same style of art. The third was a dramatic change from the previous two. I believe this to be their first avenue into a brand new style of texturing for them. This could also be the limitations of the engine and computers at the time but from a broad perspective looking into the future as with the return of Warcraft as World of Warcraft it is easy to see that they traveled the new art style into WoW. One could then argue that with 4 titles in a series each having two with similar art styles shows an ability to change and grow.
Starcraft on the other hand is just receiving its second showing but seems to be keeping the same style even with the switch two a completely 3d engine. This is another reason that Blizzard could not be classified into a one trick pony. If this concept of transitioning into one basic style to save on production time or to link titles and branding together were true then Starcraft would also be getting a new face lift to this simple yet effective style.
Diablo, where to begin:
You have a brand that has really only had 3 titles. I count the expansion in this set because of the amount of content involved in it. The first Diablo game was a brand new style for them. You go from rts to Action Rpg and it was a winner for them. They new that to make a second title they had to change things to conform to what fans wanted. Walking around a dungeon was out, running had to be implemented. Better effects, animations, environments, everything was scaled up and they did listen to the players as to what needed to be done to make a better game. You also have to realize that those games were 3qrt sprite based games. They could make the environments, characters, creatures, and effects as detailed as they wanted at the time because in the end you were just running the sprites. The transition into a 3d engine has its limitations. I am not going to go into the limitations because we all know what they are but I feel like Blizzard made the perfect choice in switching to a more WoW type style for the Diablo series.
It brings two games now with similar feels together and links them in the minds of gamers. I say similar feels because as soon as they took Warcraft and turned it into an MMO they placed an RTS and made it more like Diablo. To take Diablo and bring a bit of Warcraft into the mix is smart.
Myself I love the style of WoW but I am not one to play "pay to play" games. If I pay 60 dollars or more for a game I don't feel like I should have to shell out a monthly fee to play it. With Diablo made in this style they take all the gamers like myself who would love to pick up WoW and they give us a chance to do just that.
2: I don't think they are a one trick pony so I don't see this switch hurting them at all.
Haha, excellent! Thread over, Ror wins!
sry to say this but, those who complain about the Colorful Art Direction are judging way to quickly because all the have seen up to now is a tiny portion of the game X years before its release. Its fine to have an opinion and express it, but you need to consider that blizzard is full of talented and experienced artists that know whats best for the game, they are more qualified than anyone to know what works and what doesn't in a game. Just look at Blizzard's portfolio, they are the best in the industry and have never failed to deliver, so why would Diablo III be any different. I feel the people on the petition are probably whining because they wished to be on the dev team to have more ownership over the project. (as Tulkamir was saying if I recall correctly). I dont blame 'em for it.
If you read the article, they are using the colors for contrast in the game; the more you get into the game, the grittier it will look. They could not achieve this effect is the game's environment were always colorless.
To me, Diablo III is looking awesome, it seems they have pushed the animations and FX even further in this sequel.
Er, the only ones making beefcake space marines is Blizzard. Not that I dont like them. I know what your saying though.
Err.... lots of colours does not mean lots of contrast (atleast not in any meaningful way). In fact, I'd say you get more meaningful contrast with careful selective use of colours.
Not saying that in any peticular relationship to DIII, I just see repeated comments on "more colour, more contrast" everywhere I go it seems.
I meant they might put contrast in theme of colors. In other words;
Early game
> Very colorful ,
End game
> Lots of grays or brown with small accent of colors. ( Not "colorful")
contrast between what you see at the begging and at the end.
Seriously, go make some art..
Still way too much color.
And the one style choice that bothered me about the SECOND game from the First game was how I wasn't ever scared witless in the second one.
In the first one, when we first encountered the Butcher, my friends and I (co-op) actually screamed HOLY F**KING CHRIST! When we saw the meat cleaving Demon in a slaughtering room of human corpses on hooks. We were actually afraid to enter the lower levels of the catacombs, let alone HELL.
The second one introduced a LOT of colours, and more obscure levels with brighter pallettes (Arcane Sanctuary+Secret Cow Level = WTF) but they still had the random caves and dungeons to go through.
I think the sentiment of the Diablo community, is that the introduction of such a colourful pallette in this third game seems to kill off any hope that it will scare us witless in places, and have the same vibe and ambient feeling that World of Warcraft has (as opposed to being primarily Neo-Gothic/Hiberno Saxon with lighting inspired more by Michelangelo Caravaggio).
But I remember when the knock on the pre-Starcraft screenshots, was that it was the Purple and Green Warcraft in Space. The pre-Diablo 2 screenshots were getting slagged for not being in 3D, and only being 640x480 on release (800x600 in the expansion). So I don't think anyone is doubting Blizzards ability to make an insanely amazing game.
I was worried that both SC2 and D3 looked more like graphical enhancements rather than NEW games, but as many other posters mentioned, it's f**king BLIZZARD, and there's no way these games won't be fun.
Oh hell yes! I am still to this day afraid of the Butcher. That was a truly terrible boss made all the worse by the fact that to beat him you had to have good timing and the ability to mash your mouse button very fast.
I actually replayed the original recently and what you say about the horror feel is spot on. The first game felt far more gothic and dark than d2, and the atmosphere in places is almost palpable. D2 traded that in for much larger areas and variety so it was ok, but the world itself was still dark and gritty.
With D3 it looks like they're going for even less of a horror atmosphere and offsetting it by making everything pretty and exaggerated. It's not the colors that are the problem though, it's the way in which they're used. D2 was a very colorful game, especially when you had 8 party members spamming spells everywhere, but the feel was still dark. D3's style is far closer to WoW than to the original Diablo even if there are those who refuse to admit it; not because of colors, but because the characters and world are rendered too cleanly and with a comicbook exaggeration. Where the Barbarian was a big meat chunk with solid armor now he has big Warhammer shoulder pads, and where dungeons and woods felt like oppressive holes unfit for human presence they now feel like two steps from a children's book setting or Monkey Island backdrop.
But it'll still be grindtastic fun. *shrug*
Haha! Thanks!
I missed the thread and just general announcement reaction. Haven't had access to the PC in weeks. Good to know folks are excited about our game!
I didn't know where else to put this and I didn't want to start another Diablo 3 thread...
I was just browsing some of the D3 screen shots and was struck by a clever little trick that dawned on me here. It's really simple I'm sure it's no big deal but, check out the blending on the stone tile slabs assets. I just love verts, they are so powerful. Pretty clever use here... I mean it's simple and I've done similar tricks - but it just seemed to work really well here, with the style and everything, it left me impressed how well it blended from 3d to 2d.. it looks like vert alpha blending at any rate. It would make more sense than using a map. Anyway, the energy drinks make me ramble...
yeah dude, there is a thread about it here:
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=54897
Ah well now I know its because he is starting a company outside the games industry. Still pretty strange, many would only dream about making a such highly anticipated game and now he quits in the middle of it.. start the company later I would say :P
looks like they have some sort of dynamic textures going on here. The Barb has scratches all over him... very cool, I wonder how it works...