Well this is special...
polycounter lvl 11
Saw this on the news @ 11....
http://www.nypost.com/seven/06262008/news/regionalnews/video_villains_come_to_life_117336.htm
Really though?
http://www.nypost.com/seven/06262008/news/regionalnews/video_villains_come_to_life_117336.htm
Really though?
Replies
I'm sure that 14-17 year olds can't differentiate between a video game and reality. /sarcasm
I'd put money on the fact that "during their investigation" means that they found a copy of GTA IV in one of their rooms. Surely that's what drove these kids to commit crime.
This type of witch hunt bullshit just sickens me.
Oh yeah, think I said it before, but congrats on RSE Chris. It's Spug's buddy from AiP.
But yea, this is pretty ridiculous. :S
First, Garden City Cops are pricks. Garden City is one of the richest areas on all of Long Island, and they have their own police force, which I know from at least two seperate accounts hassled minorities just walking through residential areas (one account from a homeowner who was a bit shocked, and the other from a black guy who was hassled). They aren't much more assholes than most of the Nassau (county) cops. Neither would miss the opportunity to make conclusions like this from their 'investigation.'
Third, the Post is the Fox News of New York print media- they will post any sort of racey or shocking headline and misrepresent stories. It is a complete rag (except for the sports section). The story in Newday, another New York newspaper (more focused on Long Island where this took place), focuses less on the GTA influence.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/nassau/ny-lirobb0627,0,5611979.story
Every time a popular game involving cars, violence, drugs, anything, comes out, it is the same story- violent people play it and violent people commit crimes, and someone tries to ban our games because the games were responsible- not the parents, not the community- Rockstar is.
only one of them is above 18. If they were playing the game illegally, then the parents should held accountable.
humm... sounds like a stable home life with a solid set of boundaries and consequences. Nothing to blame but the game...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron
personally, i don't really care if you make a game where you can fuck prostitutes and then shoot them, but certainly kids should *not* be playing these games because they're clearly dangerous to their psychology (as a generalization)
when the fuck are we going to wake up and realize that we're making games that are absolutely in the moral fucking sewer? we're making imature games for immature people. the content of games like gta IV (although i do often enjoy them) are hopelessly juvenile, (again, as a generalization) and it's about goddamn time that we looked at some simple facts.
video games are an incredible art medium because they create in us new ways of thinking.
choosing to offer violent, self destructive, unhealthy-even-for-egocentric-levels-of-development ways of thinking, is extremely irresponsible.
intelligent people, like most of us here, can play these games and be perfectly fine i'm sure, but that doesn't forgive the fact that they're largely idiotic and shouldn't be played by stupid people. that being said, in my opinion, it would do us some good to take some responsibility for some of this. "yes. i made that"
If you're going to restrict things based on stupidity you've got a hell of a lot of more important issues to tackle than games. Stupid people will find ways to be stupid even if games cease to exist.
And hey, if you're making games at all than you're an irresponsible asshole already! You could be out helping HIV victims in Africa or curing cancer, but instead you're making entertainment for a mindless consumer-driven society. It doesn't matter if you make the nicest game in the world; it's not doing much good in life!
Perhaps people shouldn't feel good about making things like GTA, but compared to all of the horrible things most people in this world do I think it's a lesser evil. Saying "I made that" doesn't change anything. It's just a way of alleviating a guilty conscience without actually taking any meaningful action.
While I agree with most of what you're saying, I can't be a parent to every moron kid out there. My job isn't to police the world and keep mature content out the hands of those not ready for it. The problem started long before they ever picked up a controller.
What where they doing in a park at midnight? Not their homework, not cleaning the park, not setting up for the Special Olympics. What where they doing playing a game they shouldn't have been playing? How did they get the game?
That reporter had that article que'ed up ready to go long before GTAIV went alpha. All he needed was to drop in a few names.
Destructive people find destructive roll models and they aren't hard to find even if you take games out of the search. They also tend to find convenient excuses when they get caught.
Maybe we don't need to stand up and say "yeah I made that", I have no problem doing that BTW.
Maybe they need to stand up and say "yeah I did that, me, it was my idea and I'll take whatever is coming to me"
Damn what we need is more swings and youth groups, you know ammeneties for kids. O and better parenting! Video games should be an occasional passtime not an obsession that you take to heart! There are always a few exceptional extremists.
at least that's a step forward - stop beating a dead ped
What's this ridiculous notion that entertainment should only be pure and holy? And in what way are people not standing up and saying "yes, we made this"?
Wait, you grew up on Long Island?
sitting down and not saying anything ?
You mean snuff films, right? where they kill people? You're comparing video games to snuff films? It'd be more accurate to compare the most vile video games horror films like Hostel or Saw. The difference being that no one is actually killed in those movies, or in video games.
A world where you can play video games or watch movies or read books illegally is pretty frightening. While videogames are still young, I think few people will disagree that they have the potential to carry messages in the same way films or books do.
The US doesn't have censorship laws making it illegal to view things. It's illegal to sell pornography to a minor, but that is the only federal control of media, and it's perfectly legal for horny teenagers to view it if they can get it. States, most notably New York, are trying to get similar laws passed but they're difficult as government control of the media infringes upon constitutional rights.
The US' film industry is self-regulated, meaning the MPAA fines movie theaters and can blacklist them for selling tickets to folks younger than the rating. The videogame industry should be handled the same way, and there are steps being taken to self-police, but the ESRB is a joke compared to the MPAA and has relatively little clout. The small number of movie studios compared to videogame publishers makes MPAA enforcement easier than ESRB enforcement, as well, because the MPAA has much more of the content controlled by many fewer MPAA members.
And of course, the parents should probably step in somewhere and exert some control and responsibility in the upbringing of their children. They pay me to model guns and vehicles, they don't pay me to raise people's kids, and if I was supposed to be a baby sitter I'd find a different career.
hahah
Edit: Uh. Didn't read Ghostscape's post. Same shit, different post.
Just like theatres and Walmart abide by the MPAA's rating system, ESRB ratings are also an entirely optional system. There's no legal consequence for playing, or purchasing a game that exceeds your age in the ratings. The only people at risk for selling the game to minors are the outlets, and clerks themselves. Practically every North American store has a system in place to enforce the ratings system within its doors, but outside of that, anything goes.
That's why a strong opposition exists, with motions made by several politicians to give the ratings legal consequences. Publishers want their product to be treated the same way movies & music are.
I did mean snuff films, sry. my point was making violent games illegal or putting restrictions wont get rid of them or stop people from playing them. snuff films are an extreme example I admit, just pointing out that people still make and buy them even though they r terrible and illegal. But it is sad to see games being put in this kind of light because they can be rewarding storytelling mediums and so many are already. The younger generations are going to be more and more influenced than ever by media and marketting, and video games, and movies... its going to be an important role for parents to get them out of the living rooms and re-interested in learning. Obama has been stressing this in some of his (awesome) speeches;p
haha i love it.
good fun.
acc, thanks for the responce..
"Idiotic people also shouldn't be allowed to.... "
I don't know what people should or shouldn't be allowed to do, and i see that as being largely irrelevant. what ever they do, i can chose what i'm going to contribute to the stupid.
"If you're going to restrict things based on stupidity... "
with respect, i believe this is sidestepping the issue. yes, there are bigger problems out there than video games. that doesn't justify the negative qualities of the work we produce.
"And hey, if you're making games at all... "
again, i want to be respectful, but this is flat out not true. creating art, in it's various forms, is one of the primary ways that we have of raising the level of consciousness of human beings. how do you think that we wound up with such a materialistic, consumer-driven society? these values are hammered into us from every angle.. we make movies about them, television shows.. etc. we celebrate these values in our entertainment. however, there are still a few writers out there that are making profoundly meaningful stuff, and every one of us has experienced a movie/game/book that has changed our lives.. probably many times.
"Perhaps people shouldn't feel good about.."
i believe that taking the personal responsibility to realize that we are all involved in an incredible industry, working in an art medium that has the most potential of any in history, is the most important step we can make towards meaningful action. art effects people. the moral obligation should be obvious in that realization.
Vig, man, i agree with most of that. the personal responsibility i'm talking about has to do with realizing that we're creating these products that have such a low moral standard... I would like to add that i think violence is an extremely important part of the human existence, and it has it's place in an intelligent context. i do not believe in the demonising of this industry for the sake of it's self, nor do i think that video game makers should somehow be legally responsible for the type of idiot who does this horrible stuff.
yes, we didn't do the violent crimes. yes, the people who did them need to take responsibility. yes, these people surely are fucked up for waaaaaaaaaayy bigger reasons than video games, but we can't see ourselves as separate from that process. we are creating very influential stuff, and it's going to have an influence.
taking a fucked up person and giving him the means to hurt himself or others, even a little bit, is part of the problem. it's not the whole problem, but it's certainly part of it.. especially when we could be designing so much more intelligent games.
MightyPea, thanks, that illustrates a great point.
yes, i used to be immature. now, I'm slightly more mature, responsible, and wise. next year I will be even more so. you mention my previous immaturity as if it should somehow bar me from making this argument, but that is, in fact, the very ground that makes me able to do so. something better only comes along when we can look at the fact that we've been stupid. when is this industry going to do that?
as far as making things pure and holy goes, well, the way i see it, people are experiencing the world and in doing so, changing their internal map of reality. as we have experiences, hear stories, play games, etc, we're generating new thought patterns, beliefs, values, and ultimately shaping our world view. I think at core, there are some very simply psychological processes going on. one could make the argument that the only reason games are fun is that they develop new thought patterns. in fact, you could make the argument that that's what fun is. the truth of the matter is that people are going to be incorporating what we give them into their life.
would you rather give them something that frees them and makes them happier and more capable of spreading enlightenment, or would you rather give them something that is already congruent with, and perpetuates their current world view of fear? or would you rather be unconscious to the entire process?
Heres some old Jack Johnson
"you can't blame me sure the killer was my son
but I didn't teach him to pull the trigger of the gun
it's the killing on this tv screen
you can't blame me it's those images he's seen
well you can't blame me says the media man
well I wasn't the one who came up with the plan
and I just point my camera at what the people want to see
man it's a two way mirror and you can't blame me
you can't blame me says the singer of the song
or the maker of the movie which he based his life on
it's only entertainment and as anyone can see
the smoke machines and makeup
man you can't fool me
it was you it was me it was every man
we've all got the blood on our hands
we only receive what we demand
and if we want hell then hells what we'll have"
How does it feel to be loved by something in a computer game? I've felt what it feels like to be hated by things in a computer game countless times.Peter Molenuex
Must it be this way? Define 'must.' I think games are doing just fine as both entertainment works and art works that 'challenge the establishment.' There are games that make money, there are games that are fun, there are games that have great critiques, and combinations of all 3, and I would never want to restrict or discourage certain types of games from an institutional standpoint (I certainly discourage shitty games from a personal standpoint). I know you already think you addressed it, but really, apply your thoughts about responsibility to other mediums and areas. You are trying to fundamentally 'fix' something that was never really intended as what you think it should become (games have always been about entertainment and technology). What you should be trying to 'fix' are those things that are failing and have failed at the standard you apply to games. Family life is nonexistent, the media is a joke, corrupt individuals running rampant in government, a central government that has been growing out of control since FDR, and an economy in the shitter.
Even if videogames didn't make a single violent game, all these things would still be going on. And those kids who committed these crimes would still have broken families, they would still grow up in one of the most segregated areas in the entire US, living in a shitty apartment in Hempstead while 1 mile away the houses are multi-million dollars in Garden City, they'd still be surrounded by drugs, gangs, and violence (not to mention domestic violence!), and you know what is worst of all? They'd have no fucking clue about what is going on or how to fix their problems. Make games about fixing these problems if you want to do something uplifting.
I can't imagine the lack of violent games would yield any measurable change in this world, except for the destruction of the games industry.
As we say here, "to detonate a bomb, you don't need much".
Also they only found out that they used gta to inspire them to commit this stuff in interrogation afterwards but I bet the kids only thought of that to direct attention away from them,
also, i'd like to state that i dont have a problem with violence in games in such a simplistic sense. i think that violence is *important* in our culture, because there are certain situations that call for violence, and saying otherwise is living in a dream world, as i'm sure most of us would agree. if someone breaks into your house in a rage and you have no ability to know how to deal with that, you're going to fucking die. yyyyeeeessss there might be soome sort of diplomatic solution if your interpersonal skills are that of a fucking god, but there will always be some situation where violence is nessisary, i believe. the problem isn't making violent content, the problem is not seeing it for what it is -- contribution. violent media gives me a greater ability to be violent... and these games do give lots of other great skills, don't get me wrong... but we need to be conscious of this effect so we can understand what we're contributing.
Professor420 -- right on, that's a great topic.
i get sick of elitist art as well. the problem with elitism in art, of course, is that it doesn't actually really understand the shit that it's spouting. art does NOT just equal fighting the system or making some sort of 'critique'. this form of critique is just an expression from a very specific level of consciousness -- one that has the ability to be self reflective and deconstructive and make abstract statements. this stuff pisses me off too. i'm sick of going into art galleries and seeing this type of art all over the walls because that's what art 'is'. bullshit.
to be congruent with that, yes, the art that was religious back in the day is art, and yes, it was contributing to the people at the time -- it contributes to the world view of those people. as it happens, world views and values actually develop in a hierarchy. the values of churchy, follow-the-rules type people, often referred to as conformist, mythic, and so on, is an actual stage of human development and we've all been through it. transformers is a good example of a movie that illustrates this worldview -- an epic, unending battle between black and white, good and evil, that must be fought with honor and absolute conviction. this movie IS contribution to this level. the question is, to this world view, what particular values are we speaking? are we creating healthy conformists or unhealthy ones? this conformity this is slightly more primitive that the world you live in, but it's the world view of a LOT of people today and we can't just throw this under the rug because it might seem dumb.
what i'm suggesting isn't even an end to games that express simple realities. we just need to take responsibility for the fact that we *are* making art, we are contributing, and it's going to have an effect on people.
that poem ged posted is awesome. we're all connected somehow.. i'm not saying that we should all shit our pants and mope and cry, i'm saying we need to wake up and be conscious about what we're putting out there.
one more thing -- to me, why humans find things fun is an interesting topic. entertainment isn't just "entertainment". people are always growing and learning. that's what entertainment is, in my opinion.. a great movie is fun because it's meaningful to you.
oh and if you want to know about the large amount of research done on developmental heirarchies, you can check out this puppy fer a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Dynamics
the pathologies section is interesting.
what inspired the gangsters to do driveby shootings in the 30s?
not video games, not movies.
what inspired hitler to murder 6 million jews?
not video games, not movies.
what inspired the holy crusades in the middle ages?
not video games, not movies.
we've been brutally killing eachother since the day we could hold a club,
sticking heads on spikes, cutting peoples chests open and pulling their hearts out while still alive,
cutting unborn children out of pregnant women... the list is endless.
right now, we're living in the most civil and peaceful epoch in human history.
there hasn't been so much peace and liberty in the world per capita as there is today.
another thing you should look at is crime stats in the US.
they have NEVER been lower per capita in the US,
and curiously, about 1 year after each GTA release, the amount of crimes overall goes DOWN by at least 15%..
I agree whole heartedly with this sentiment. Gerard Jones (a comic book artist) wrote a book in regards to the fact that violent media is actually good for kids and adults. Violent media is a way for us to carry out our instinctual violence in safe manner.
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Monsters-Children-Make-Believe-Violence/dp/0465036961/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214711040&sr=8-3[/ame]
My bad - dejawolf already got this point across pretty well
http://www.groundswell.fi/sim/wp-content/upload/thunderbolt-kid-cover.jpg
A bunch of kinds had nothing to do and they needed to show they were big and bad. They thought it be fun to beat up a bitch or two, and drive a car around the land. In some parts where I grew up kids had nothing better to do but beatt each other up over the music they listened two, the color of their skin or the language they spoke. Of course if you got good grade then you were a target as well. The other thing they wanted to do was get with the girls and fight. I'm sure grand theft auto has been around that long, a few decades, it's evil, evil I tell you. The kids choose to be big bad simple as that, and they got caught. Where I lived it was common to see a 15 to 18 year old walking around with knives and guns. There was no grand theft auto, just a sense that life is hopeless, boring and a need to show how big and bad you were.
Alex
I studied some of this for my dissertation.
there are 3 main reasons people blame video games for violence rather than other media:
1. you interact, you consiously choose to perform the violent act
2. you often play the game for 25 hours or more not like a 2 hour movie
3. you often repeat the same violent decisions for those 25 hours or more
No we dont have any evidence or surveys which show this effect on our society but the authors of the book Digital Play say:
“To interpret an unknown as a mandate to forge ahead in generating ultraviolent virtual realities is disingenuous and irresponsible.”(Kline, Dyer-witherford, De Peuter, 2003:268 ).
In my opinion we dont need to blame very violent games or developers we just need more variety and quality in other game types.
dejawolf, if part of what i said sounds like "nonsensical shit", maybe you should go back and read it again, because you clearly didn't read it the first time. i do NOT think that violent video games are the main cause for violent behavior. in fact, i generally don't think one thing is ever the cause for a given behavior. yes, i know that violence was going on for a long time before all of this, and yes, i realize that we're living in the most civilized period in history -- i think about it very frequently, actually.
i dont think that these games are corrupting our youth (like that heavy metal stuff hehe), but i do think that it's bad programming. video games can train people to think, and we're squandering the potential developing stupid fucking thought patterns.
here's more 'nonsensical shit' phrased using more words than nessisary:
as Ged says:
3. you often repeat the same violent decisions for those 25 hours or more
that's developing a thought pattern -- it's people programming. I suppose i shouldn't have assumed that everyone knows what thought patterns are. basically our mind works with various events triggering different actions. i smell pie, i feel hungry, i go eat.--- for a given event, respond in a given way.... in the case of most games -- threat appears, you shoot it. on a literal level, you'd think that these patterns would never be needed in real life (i never meet any Aliens with big guns), but the mind isn't that simple. we have the ability to take a thought pattern and use it metaphorically in a different location:
lets take something that happened to me a while back. I got dumped by a girlfriend, and the meaning i put on this event was "I'm unlovable." of course, this is a VERY threatening thought and i responded by wanting to push it away. "that fucking bitch.." it took me a good week of holding myself back to attach a better meaning on it and have a better response. it doesn't mean I'm unlovable, and even if it does, i don't need to push that thought away. when i have a sad thought now, i let it come up and wash over me. i respond with hurt, sometimes i cry, i digest the feeling, i usually learn something, then i feel happy again. much better than repression and violence.
threatening input --> violent response = shitty strategy (often).
this isn't crippling our culture. in fact, if it is causing negative shit, it might be in just a few small situations. that doesn't change a simple fact:
video games can train people to think, and we're squandering the potential developing stupid fucking thought patterns.
oh. one more thing. the reason that things have been getting more civilized for humanity is for related reasons. At some point, we had primitive minds and we didn't have a way of dealing with hurt, frustration, and getting our ego bashed about, other than to bash someone's head open with a club. the only reason that we don't do this as much anymore is because we have better ways of responding to our environment -- i dont need to get violent if i get hurt a little, i can express my hurt to someone who cares and forgive the person who made the offense. this is what evolution LOOKS LIKE in human beings.
we're still barely out of the jungle, like George Carlin said, but we're on our way.. and they way forward is to consciously decide better ways of living our lives, and then to share that with other people.
It also ignores the very valid point brought up above that videogames may very well fulfill an important function in getting out aggression. You look at them as enforcing thought/behaviour patterns. I think they are pretty impotent (as all art is) in that effect, so I am also not sure about the validity of this claim. But if you ARE going to support the behaviour effect of videogames, you also must believe the people that say videogames may make them less violent. You cannot say violent videogames only effect people violently, there has not been enough data to really support one side or another (violent games may make people violent in the short term, but I don't know of any studies for the long term/days/weeks, I may be wrong. And since you are describing behavioural patterns, the long term is really what you should be focusing on).
My personal opinion, and I'm sure I'm missing some glorious argument about behavioural dynamics and developmental hierarchies, is that this discussion is pretty moot. You want to know what I think is the real problem with videogames? The time people waste playing them (I was hungover saturday and wasted the whole day playing TF2 instead of working on my site). So I am a giant fucking hypocrite because I am working on what will be the coolest damn MMO over.
as far as the aggression release issue goes, it's hard to say, and although i do think that there is probably some value there, i could argue the point -- if a guy is angry and wants to beat his wife, is it really a solution to give him a wife-beating-sim to get out his aggression? is that really a solution?
one thing's for sure, you're right about the market collapsing if we put out loving-caring-sharing-hugging games, and i'm certainly not for that at all.. it's too big of a step. that doesn't mean however, that we can't start putting more constructive thought patterns, or at least narratives (which is starting to happen) into otherwise violent games.
which leads us to the whole thought pattern thing. I would disagree with you of course, i think that at core, a game is developing thought patterns.. i mean isn't a game fun because it's learning? take guitar hero.. you start with developing a simple motor skill... holding down a button and strumming.. then it complexifies as you have to build on the motor skills, that generally unfold in patterns... red button red button *Stretch* green button.. after you get that bit it goes on to more complex things and so on until you're doing craaazzyyy internal things, like slowing down your experience of time, to play the damn thing. that tickled me pink when i got it. guitar hero teaches time distortion.
sweet!
anyway maybe you'd disagree, but i think that people think in terms of patterns.. that's kinda what 'fun' is..
and as far as developmental stuff goes... maybe i should have found a way to not bring that up because it overcomplexifies the fuck out of everything, but sometimes it's purdy appropriate.
I think the problem is that you often get either:
A teaching tool dressed as a game
or
A game dressed as a teaching tool
Theres too much of a focus of one or the other.
I think it would be good to mix learning, creativity and variety into mainstream games more, in subtle ways which make it a richer more emotionally and mentally enjoyable experience. Like the doses of philosophical thought and emotional choice making in Bioshock or the creativity of spore or the narrative power of Facade.
one thing's for sure, if games do contribute, it's got to be on this level where you're not necessarily conscious about what you're learning.. you should be doing what you want to do, and the magic should go on behind the curtain, so to speak..