Enviro - IronHawk Brewing Company - WIP looking for C and C
polycounter lvl 10
I'll post wires later.
Here is my remaining prop list:
milk crate
crushed cans
paper bits white and brown big and small
concrete chunks, asphalt chunks along corners and walls
more sand
weeds
sticks
cig butts
cup lids
stop poles in front of door
Always thought it would be fun to own a brew pub so I am going with that theme for this scene. There will be a milk crate chair outside the door with cig butts around it and coffee cups. Basic the remnants of where employees hang on break just in front of the spot where the cinder blocks meet the brick. Under the window will be rows of used kegs. The crates will have text on them indicating they are for hops shipments.
I'll post more when I get home but what I'm looking for is crits on the lighting and make up of the scene so far ( paintovers) . I'll be working more color variation into the bricks yet with the lower section darker black and yellowing just a bit up and then washing out at the top third before going black streaked.
Dropping in more of the completed props tonight but I wanted to get some feedback on the existing ones before I do.
I'll be moving to Eugene, OR here in about a month and can hopefully get on at one of the studios there. So I'll be trying to knock this out and my SC2 autoturret this weekend. GO GO GO. I'd rather not take another tech job.
Ok thanks in advance for the help fellas
Replies
Keep at it though. Maybe do a paintover with some more focused lighting. That seems to be another area you could add more into.
You'd be better off showing the props by themselves without a scene. Few decals and a chair wont change that.
I don't want to sound mean but you should really try doing some research before you make a scene, asking for paintovers for a scene with a theme you can find thousands of great reference photos on flickr and google is a rather lazy approach.
It's easier to get away with a mediocre SciFi and Fantasy scene, companies have great concept artists, you dont, so lets hire the guy and see what he can do with a concept as reference... but doing a bad job on such an easy researcheable scene is a very bad thing.
The first think that always strikes me with these back alley scenes are the tall flat walls. If you're putting that in your portfolio you want an interesting back alley, you want to show that you can take something as limited as a walled rectangle space and bring it alive and give it some mood.
The quality of the props won't even matter much in the end, if the scene sells, you're up, if it doesn't, nobody's even gonna look at the props anymore.
I'd first do something about the walls, break them up, add some horizontal trims, divisions, change the materials in some areas separating the ground floor from the top floors.
Most buildings have a concrete ground floor and the top floors are bricks, sometimes it's the opposite.
Sometimes you have older more arched and interesting architecture with newer more simple and functional/industrial ground or top floors added to it.
If the alley was in a game, the door with the light over it would be the focus point, the spot the player would be drawn to. He'd enter the back alley from the left fixed on reaching the door.
The area around and past the door is what he'll see the longest.
Putting some pipes in the corner right after the door is the fastest way to get some nice shading, something to look at, and if you bend them a little in different direction it will help make things feel more natural and less angular. A ventilation rectangle at the bottom could be letting out some foggy particles.
Alternatively, there's 101 different power boxes, ACs and cables you can fit into that spot.
Such things can make a spot busier and more interesting, forgiving other more neglected parts in the scene.
Google or flickr up similar areas to what you want to do, there's all kinds of AC units and interesting details that can help make tha area more functional.
If they have boring architecture don't use that as an excuse to do the same, google up more, mix interesting architectural details taking the best of all you see in the references.
I don't like the gray stone wall texture, I've seen it done the same way in every other back alley scene, is there a tutorial everybody follows 1:1 ? ...it just screams sterile.
I like the bricks from what i can see.
I dislike teh perfectly even metal plate at he bottom of the door, I'd expect it to see some bumps in it. maybe the bent pipes and cables will help make it all look less perfect.
I'd consider having some large decals, like a big large stain in the right corner and a puddle or cracked concrete spot on the ground.
I don't know how custom the textures are, you seem to have dirt on the borders of the textures where the floor meets the walls. I'd try making that dirt brighter, give it a more gray/brown dust color, with some dark spots. Have the dust reaching higher, right now ithe dark dirt there is so low you might aswell not have it. Have stronger dirt etc in the corners.
Consider adding common imperfections to the ground texture, old colored bubblegum stains, some crack and if possible a layer of dust/dirt. Seems very clean right now.
hmm that's all I can think of right off the bat.
@ Strangefate - Thanks a ton man you really nailed the areas I failed. The lazy comment wasn't mean this is PC let that fly. I do have quite a bit of reference off of flickr and thought I was following it pretty well but knew something was off so that why I posted before completing the other props/ details. I don't want this to be just another generic alley. Tomorrow's going to be a long day.
edit...
lol thinking back this isn't even a generic alley its a corner to show off props. how lame. Time to get to work thanks again SF.
Some high buildings have those fire escapes that are on the side of buildings, could cast some interesting shadows too.
Found this example quickly:
Keep at it, its coming along :poly106:
Mr. Hawk: Definitly agree on the needed items for the ground; I'd get some more visual noise on to there. Decals, papers, shit, gum, piss stains, used condom, used needle, McD's Bigmac container, pile of garbage with bugs flying around it, tire tracks, cracks, pebbles, a hobo's house, the legs of the hobo inside his hobo house, shopping cart, wood skids, old/unused sidewalk signs, etc. etc. are all ideas.
And, please please please, pick am ore interesting camera angle / scene composition. You could do 2 or 3 easily with this. Reference some movies to get some ideas or offer up the scene as an OBJ and I'll show you what I mean.
Good job, just take it further.
SF, Reading your post almost made me want to start making those props heh. Thanks for taking the time to type that up.
And just to make Brome happy add a little DOF and go with a slightly rotated ground camera, yea!
and just what strange fate said basically
looking great
personally, i hate loaded environments with too many details. to my personal astetic taste, adding a whole pile of stuff to this scene will *surely* make it uglier. that being said, i very much agree that this scene doesn't exactly showcase your excellent world-object creation skills, but if you want my opinion, adding more objects to it would not help you look like a good environment artist in general.
my vote is more simple things, and yes, definitely a bit of stuff on the ground... but it sounds like you've got plans to do this already. anyway... decals, stains, cracks, maybe an overturned garbage can with some trash spilling out.. make a story. maybe someone got beat up here and there's evidence of that struggle. what's this place about? whats happening here? why should i give a shit about it? give me some mystery, some intrigue -- that's what gets me hard. loading the scene with more... semi-appropriate pieces will just complexify the scene, and make my head hurt on top of making me bored. in my opinion (and i have a hard time doing this as well) say what you want to say, and leave it at that.
In addition to modeling out those props SF recommended. I'm going to make the walls modular and more interesting. Should have some updates soon.
@ Brome - I'll send you a file sometime this week after I build the modular bits to get some cool angles.
@ Vig - thanks dude. I'll get some DOF in there
@ john warner - I am redoing the scene to work in most the props SF recommended. I do agree though and sorta liked the plain look. Once I have everything built I'll try a few more shots and mix it up a bit. I can still show those props separately.
@ shepirio and odium - decal layer is last but on the way.
You want a simple empty scene that tells a little story ? let that to the intern or LDs, they can do that just aswell. Personally, they make me smile but also wonder where the hell that guy had his brains when he decided to spend time doing tiny little funny details like an old shoe or dead rat when the alley itself is missing all the things that actually do belong there and were there long before the dead rat was even born.
Priorities...
Your main concern as an enviro artist will be to create an immersive environment (well hopefully). If you can't tell a story and set a mood with the environment itself and the larger objects in it, then you might aswell apply as a prop artist. The little stuff is the icing on the cake, but you wont sell it if the cake isn't great.
During production, you simply may not have much time for those little stories, and you dont want the player wondering why the big picture looks so neglected. Your best way to really capture his attention is with the architecture, larger pieces and lighting.
The state of the architecture, the large visible props and the state of the texture materials will tell the player enough of a story, or support the story that is unfolding in the game.
You could still add a lot more to my paint over and the result wouldn't look busy. Or you could actually add less and do have it look busy. Making that difference is part of the job.
Commonly you break down the area into pockets, creating more dense and unique spots, ideally where you think the player will be going/facing.
If you have 10 pipes and spread them evenly across an area you'll have a mess and nobody will notice the pipes, if you put them all together in one spot you'll have something that clearly stands out.
In the paintover there's a spot with vertical pipes, another with horizontal AC units etc.
The areas are rather contained and all the objects are large enough to be easily readable from distance, they should cast decent shadows, feel 'right' and fit in the scene.
There shouldn't be enough of anything to create a noisy or busy feeling.
I truly was looking at the props more then how to make this feel like it should. When I went to get coffee Saturday morning I used an alley entrance and saw pretty much a replica of your paint over. lol
Quick question. For modular details is it best to keep everything water tight or can they be built as intersecting parts. I noticed the latest version of UT most everything was sealed but I remember the older version had open backsides on walls and trim. Of course this could be engine dependent and it wont matter in max.
Thanks again SF.
I would either leave things open or make sure whatever backsides etc you have dont take up texture space. Personally i like to close smaller objects but leave architecture pieces open. It's all stuff that will be drawn too and depending of the engine it might be wasting lightmap space too.
For a portfolio piece I wouldn't worry to much about it tho. Whatever techniques are necessary at a place can be learned there. Nobody will expect you to work exactly the way they do before hiring you.
The main things you want to show in your portfolio is that you can work clean and create great and efficient enviros in general with a good mix of unique and reusable/modular stuff.
I think the distinction SF makes between Scene History and Scene Story is important especially with regards to time and efficient use of the space. 1 day spent on a rat, a dented pop can and a newspaper decal could be better spent on bigger ticket items. Not only is it a better use of your time, it is more visually satisfying for the player and its a better use of the resources.
The chances of a dead rat, trash or cigarette butts being cut to save on footprint, or just not placed: Pretty high. Wasted time...
The chances of a well modeled and textured piece that actually adds visual impact and can be reused in other areas: Fairly low.
lookin good though man, decals should help out your case a ton. I didn't realize the importance of those little bastards till about a month or so ago.
quick update. Getting ready to texture these and block out the new walls. Didn't want you to think I was slacking.
The AC unit could use some more lovin, a nice piece of trim around the bottom, maybe a name plate?
Small ac unit has a top plate with another top plate in the lower corner on top of that. Bad angle in this shot.
still need to add in the ao and opacity obviously but the big ac unit has a fan I rendered to a plane to give it parallax as well as make it able to animate.
Good idea on the bottom trim I couldn't see that in my reference. Would be easy to add in.
edit
good call on the name plate for the big ac unit. prolly do that with a plane and have 2 for variation. It was on most refs but not the one I was checking mostly. good shot but ghetto alley in shanghai no name plate.
Keep it up, mate!
-caseyjones
Scott
Remember that in games everything feels smaller, and if you have rather simple textures then empty spaces will look twice as uninteresting.
In case of doubt when it comes to scaling objects, a bit bigger is always better than a bit smaller.
heres my alley facade. cant really enter the comp as i started this awhile back but this is the new direction its going. Most the props are textured except the fire escapes new windows / cill stones.
any feedback is appreciated.
Fantastic work by the way!
@ Tumerboy, Sage , CarloC, Quakimbo, and EricV Thanks for the responses guys. Didn't want to post again till i had something more solid.
I have a lightmap rendered out but still messing with trying to get it to look right in max. Suppose I could just use plain AO though too. I'd rather lightmap it for my folio though.
Still messing with the lighting trying to find something I like for a daylight render then going to do another sunset or evening render.
Wanted to get the scene up for crits though. I'm tight on time though so wont be able to follow through with much more other then small changes.
pixel density is about 1024x per 2 meters and the scene is 25,000 tris.
I agree on the colour variation and bricks above, and the ashtray thing by the door jumps out at me. I don't understand why the cylinder base has pure black towards the exterior, similar from both angles, so probably another normals thing.
Interesting development in the thread, and a solid result you're getting.
Small changes i would make:
-The yellow cylinder's bottoms shouldn't fade to almost black as they are now. They shouldn't end in a shade that's darker than the road itself.
All the dirt that crawls up on them from the bottom is dust and residue from the ground, it will usually be lighter than the ground itself as it's mostly just dust.
The black right now makes them look like they're floating, too much of a seam.
-THe bricks look really awkward, there's no real difference between the color of the bricks and the mortar. The bricks are far too noisy and prominent to let it go like that.
I'd suggest downloading the ACME brick designer http://www.brick.com/md/index.htm
If you set it to create a texture with 25x70 rows you can save it as a BMP and scale it down etc PS, drop some soft dirt overlays on them (find some stucco/concrete walls with dirt that will work) and they will look near perfect in no time.
You have tons of brick styles to pick from and can change the color of the mortar to anything you like.
Something i would work on in the future is the materials and contrast break up in general.
Most metals in your scene look like an average gray, and so does the concrete on the window.
It's rather boring feeling stuff that doesn't look convincing.
The placement of the yellow pillars look odd, would be a squeeze for someone to fix/tinker/whatever with the appliance on the wall. Brick normals have already been mentioned.
You have a light above the door, is it going to be on? I really like what you did with the fire escape, will cast really nice and interesting shadows on the floor.
EricV - Thanks man! Your scene is coming along nicely over in the comp.
Cody - thanks for pointing out the mortar. I got a bit overzelous with the dirt on top of the mortar layer. Should be an easy fix.
Ozymandias - Thanks for pointing that out. I had inadvertently flipped the normals on that element. Fixed that one already. I'll see what I can do on another to kick the textures up a notch.
Kary - The ashtray thing was kicked in. Doesnt show it that well from this angle. I'll try and rotate is for a better shot and fix the smoothing.
Ironwolf - Thanks!
Strangefate - Thanks for all your help on this bro! I think the combination of the hand painted AO and the rust drip is whats doing giving that seam on the yellow barriers. Good catch I'll fix it.
I'll check out that link and try some new bricks. I do have a decent grout mask on my current bricks so I'll try and tweak them there first. I try to keep my PSD's pretty organized for making changes.
Thanks for the crits on the materials. I'll add material studies to my list of personal work. I have a turret im working on as well that has quite a bit of metal and will really try and get it dialed in there.
Carlo_C - Thanks! The light will be on for the final renders. Planning to do a night render so I'll turn on some window lights as well. The brick normals are fixed. The barriers are actually a little further out then my reference. I don't think the city does much fixing on those. Pretty sure they would just swap it out and take it to a shop.
I'm calling this the final for now. Still taking crits but wont have much time to act on them at this point.
Updated with a sky.
Thanks Everyone this project was very rewarding.
Frozan this is just a max scanline render with a lightmap and some quick bloom work in PS.