Questions/confirmations for 3ds Max and Maya

Big Rocket

Hi everyone,

I am trying to find the most efficient workflow to model cinematic quality models. My primary concern is 3D modeling; animation is not terribly important at this stage, as long as I can pose the models reasonably. I am an amateur hobbyist, open to either Maya or 3ds Max.

Smooth Surfaces

1. In 3ds Max, if I want to work with subdivision surfaces, I have to start out with a polygon object, then convert it via the HSDS, MeshSmooth, or TurboSmooth modifiers, right? I don't think you can start out with a subdivision object right from the get-go (like in Maya), but please correct me if I'm mistaken.

2. In 3ds Max, the subdivision objects (obtained via HSDS, MeshSmooth, or TurboSmooth) are just objects with finely triangulated surfaces, right? In other words, can I get subdivision surfaces that are mathematically and infinitely smooth, like Nurbs?

3. In Maya, if I create a polygon object, then do a Subdiv Proxy, the resulting object is a finely triangulated surface, not mathematically and infinitely smooth, right?

4. In Maya, if I start out with a Subdiv object (Create > Subdiv Primitives > Sphere), or if I convert a polygon object into a Subdiv object (Modify > Convert > Polygons to Subdiv), the resulting object is truly mathematically and infinitely smooth, right?


Symmetry

5. To ensure left-right symmetry in Maya models, the best technique I have found so far is to work in polygons, then do a Mesh > Mirror Cut. Then, when I am done in the low-poly stage, I can Convert > Polygons to Subdiv to get the final high-poly model. Is there a better technique? FYI, Subdiv Proxy with Mirror Behavior set to Full also works nicely, as long as you are not concerned with triangulated surfaces versus infinitely smooth surfaces.

6. To ensure left-right symmetry in 3ds Max models, two techniques I have found so far are: (a) the Symmetry command in the Modifier List, and (b) Mirror with Instance. Is there a better technique?


Miscellaneous

7. In 3ds Max or Maya, when working with multiple viewports, is there a way to zoom in the active viewport, and have all the other viewports follow the same zoom?

8. What does the Maya output window do, besides displaying information I don't think I need? If it does not serve a vital function I overlooked, can I tell Maya not to load it automatically on startup? Right now, I just close down the output window, and keep working in Maya.


Thanks.

- BR

MoP

1. Why would you want to start out with a pre-subdivided object? Surely it's the same end result as just adding a Turbosmooth? Anyway, if you want that, you can turn on "Use NURMS Subdivision" checkbox in the "Subdivision Surface" rollout of any Editable Poly object. That will give you subdivision without needing to apply a modifier.

2. You can convert any primitive polygon object into a NURBS surface in Max. Just right-click on the object's modifier stack, look under "Convert To" and click "NURBS". So just do something like create a Cylinder, then right-click on the stack and Convert To NURBS.

3. Correct, it's just a triangulated smoothed surface.

4. Not really sure what you mean. It will still be displayed as polygons. But you can change the amount of subdivisions. I'm not quite sure here if you're talking about NURBS sub-d or poly sub-d. Both can be tesselated down to the pixel level, you just won't be able to do that in real-time. When rendering you can do any of that though - Mental Ray can subdivide polygon objects to as many subdivisions as you like, at render time.

5. I always work in polygons, I tend to use either a SubD Proxy, or Mirror Cut, or just use a mirrored instance of the object until I'm done modelling.

6. Symmetry modifier all the way. Mirror with instance shouldn't be necessary any more. What do you think could be better than symmetry? It automatically and parametrically mirrors, cuts and welds the mirror seam. What "better technique" do you think is possible?

7. I think you can do this in Maya, but I don't think you can do it in Max. Are you from a LW/Modo background?

8. I have no idea ... I just leave it running in the background, just in case. It outputs information from Mental Ray if you're using it for vertex baking or rendering. Mostly the useful messages will go to the Script Editor though. One thing I never figured out is how to get the Output Window back if you actually close it...

Mark Dygert

1) In 3dsMax, you can set the number of height, width and length segments of every object. Sometimes its easier to edit a low poly mesh that has turbosmooth applied because editing a bunch of verts can be a nightmare at times.

2-4) meh? use nurbs if thats what you want. Are you looking for smoothing group info? I don't understand the questions dealing with infinitely smooth-ness? There are several different ways to achieve a smooth surface, perhaps examples are in order?

5) In 3dsMax make a Symmetry Sandwich. Your history stack should look like this:
- Symmetry (This enables the viewport to be actively engaged in mirroring)
- Edit Poly (This is where you do your editing)
- Symmetry (This starts the symmetry, but only visible when clicked)
- Editable Poly (Base of Object after converting it to poly)

6) Mirror will flip your polys inside out but you won't know it until you export/import or reset Xform. Mirror also does not have a weld threshold. Leaving you to weld the center seam yourself.
If you mirror something reset Xform and flip the back facing polys. Personally I stick to the Symmetry Sandwich.

7) 3dsMax: Maximize ViewPort Toggle, I have it bound to SpaceBar. Its the lowest icon in the right corner, looks like two squares with an arrow. "Z" zoom extents to the bounds of the current selected object in all viewports. Not really sure if you're trying to control the zoom in all viewports?

8) Never bothered to figure out what it was. I'm sure theres a way but we'll need to talk to a Maya expert

Eric Chadwick

Vig what's the benefit to the sandwich? Why not just model in Editable Poly, show end result, with one Symmetry on top?

Mark Dygert

With just one symmetry on top, it doesn't update the opposite side in real time as you edit. You have to click on symmetry after editing to view the changes.

With the sandwich, when you move a vert on the left, it moves on the right at the same time. Pretty awesome if you ask me

EDIT: Oh looks like in 2k8 and 2k9 they fixed symmetry so you no longer have to sandwich it. NICE! 9 and lower your stuck using the sandwich.

MoP

Max 8 always worked with one Symmetry for me, Vig. I've never needed two modifiers. Maybe you had "show end result" turned off?

Eric Chadwick

Nice eh?

In max 9 I used to use a Poly Select in the middle, just to stop the SO selection. Was that the idea for the sandwich, to prevent the Symmetry from seeing the selection?

Mark Dygert

Ahh that was it, heh. The stopping of the selection was a nice by-product but not the reason I did it. In my version of 9 it defaults to "show end result off" whenever I click down in the history I thought it was only enabled when you where working on the top item, which was totally backwards to me. I never tried toggling it back on, I thought it wouldn't let me heh.

More then likely some bit of UI hacking I did screwed it up, because in 2k8 and higher it stays on/off whatever its set to.

Eric Chadwick

ah man, and here I was thinking Vig had some secret sauce. :poly112:

Big Rocket

Thanks for the feedback.

For the infinite smoothness I was referring to, an example would be making a sphere, then zooming in really close. If this sphere is a Nurbs object, then no matter how close you zoom in, the sphere will be displayed as a smooth curved surface at render time. If this sphere is a finely triangulated polygon object, then beyond a certain zoom level, you will start to see straight edges. I really love Subdivs for the ability to control complex surfaces with minimal vertices, but I still want to get the smoothness of Nurbs. I think Maya lets me do that (what I mentioned re: Number 4 in my initial post), and I think Max does not let me do it at all (short of resorting to Nurbs), but please correct me if I'm mistaken.

In case you are wondering, another example would be if I show an entire jumbo airplane, then zoom in really close to show the individual passengers lining up to get onto the airplane. When I zoom in to show the passengers, I wouldn't want the plane to look blocky with a 16-sided polygon cylinder representing the fuselage (just an example). Maya's Subdiv objects seems to take care of this, whereas Maya's Subdiv Proxy and Max's HSDS/MeshSmooth/TurboSmooth do not seem to. Again, if my understanding is wrong, please correct me.

About the multiple viewports, I would like to control the zoom of all 4 viewports simultaneously as I scroll the mousewheel. I tried Shift/Ctrl/Alt + mousewheel, but nothing worked so far in Max or Maya. I haven't seen any other software do this, but it seems so intuitive, I imagined it would be standard in Max/Maya.

Thanks.

- BR

Eric Chadwick

Try the Zoom All button, lower right corner of the UI. If you have a programmable mouse, you could probably bind the mousewheel to that function.

Mark Dygert

If I understand correctly, in 3dsMax you'll only see straight/hard edges if you view the model with smoothing groups off, or faceted.

Also TurboSmooth lets you control the number of subdivisions, dial it up for close up shots and down for far away ones. OR like MoP suggested let Mental Ray handle the Sub Divide when it needs to at render time if you're doing rendered work.

Eric Chadwick

Naw, he wants to see adaptive subdivision as a % of screen size, at render time.

MoP

Just slap a Turbosmooth on with 1 or 2 iterations for viewport display and 5-6 iterations for rendering, if you're going to be zooming in that much. For most objects I doubt you'd need that much smoothing unless you were going in REALLY close.

Sage

Max way of doing the true subd bit is to turn on Nurms subd in editable poly then you go can set the level to 2 or 3. You can bind that to a shortcut if you want. Anything higher seems like a waste if you just want to meet the airplane example you mentioned.

To test all you have to do is turn on the triangle counter. Make a box. Turn it into an editable poly. Turn nurms on set the level to 3. or as high as you want and you'll notice the polygon and triangle count stay the same.

Make a copy of this or make a new box add a turbosmooth to it and compare the difference. Simple as that.

Which app is better. Neither, it depends on what you get used to first. If you were to compare Maya Unlimited to Max, Maya Unlimited has more power in certain areas, but it really depends on how you are going to use the program and there are 3rd part plugins for Max that you can get but whatever. I like Max because I got used to it first and when I used Maya it was version 2 or 2.5 and it was a very different and crappy beast back then for game modeling. It's a different story today.

Alex

Big Rocket

Thanks, everyone. You've been a great help.

Now that MoP mentioned it, I'm not so sure what Maya does is a true curved surface for SubD objects. It could very well be the case in which Maya does what Eric mentioned (adaptive subdivision based on zoom level), only Maya does it behind the scenes.

I'm very satisfied with the results I obtained from TurboSmooth and Editable Poly > Nurms Subdivision. The best workflow I have experienced so far is: Standard Primitive > Editable Poly > Symmetry > push/pull vertices in Editable Poly to get the right look with low polycount before TurboSmooth> TurboSmooth > push/pull vertices some more in Editable Poly to get the right look with high polycount after TurboSmooth. Is this pretty much what everyone does in SubD modeling?

I had the exact same problem Vig had, regarding the lack of realtime mirroring by default. Thanks for the tip about the Show End Result toggle. Also, thanks for the tip about the Zoom All button, which I don't think I would have noticed in a long time.

- BR

Eric Chadwick

Yeah, workflow sounds good. Just don't ever collapse the stack if the mesh is being subdivided. You want to keep the low-poly cage intact... easier to edit, and easier to port to other packages. I personally never use the edit options in the sub-d modifiers (MeshSmooth or HSDS) because these don't survive easily.

MoP

Big Rocket wrote: »

The best workflow I have experienced so far is: Standard Primitive > Editable Poly > Symmetry > push/pull vertices in Editable Poly to get the right look with low polycount before TurboSmooth> TurboSmooth > push/pull vertices some more in Editable Poly to get the right look with high polycount after TurboSmooth. Is this pretty much what everyone does in SubD modeling?

I usually just have Editable Poly (converted from any useful primitive), then Symmetry on top of that, then Turbosmooth on top of that. I try not to ever put any Edit Poly stuff on top of Turbosmooth, only ever parametric stuff like FFD (same as Maya's Lattice deformers), or Bend/Twist etc. Stuff that won't be affected by topological change.

You shouldn't need to edit polys above a turbosmooth modifier if your control cage (the base EPoly) is doing its job right. Use small bevels to control edge "hardness" (two edges very close together in your control cage will result in a harder edge when turbosmoothed).

As soon as you add an Edit Poly on top of a TurboSmooth, it means that you will probably screw up your model if you try and edit anything in the EPoly below the turbosmooth, because the geometry (vertex order, polygon count etc) will no longer match.

Big Rocket

MoP, my bad, I phrased it wrong. What I meant to say was this:
• In Editable Poly, push/pull vertices to get a good-looking low resolution model
• Apply TurboSmooth to see how the high resolution model looks
• Do not apply a new Editable Poly (above the TurboSmooth), but go back to the previous Editable Poly in the stack (below the TurboSmooth) to make more changes to optimize it for the high resolution model

Thanks.

- BR

MoP

Oh right, yeah.

What I do which I find quite handy, is set a hotkey to toggle "show end result" (it's in the default customization keyboard list in the Customize User Interface menu), I have it set to "S", so while I'm modelling in my base-level EPoly, I can just hit S to toggle on or off the symmetry/turbosmooth or whatever modifiers are above in the stack. This gives me a nice clear view of the unsubdivided control mesh (I always set it to a completely faceted display - no smoothing groups), and quick access to how the subdivided version is looking.

I also have "A" and "D" as Previous Modifier and Next Modifier respectively - so I can skip up and down the stack even when Show End Result is off, to see what each modifier is doing - all without ever having to mouse over to the modifier stack.

In this way I can easily toggle between any modifiers and choose to display the end result or not. I definitely recommend trying this workflow.

sprunghunt

The only way I know of getting adaptive subdivision which subdivides based on screen area is to output your files to renderman. You can do this from both maya and Max but it's a bit more complicated from max. As far as I know neither application will do this in realtime on the screen.

https://renderman.pixar.com/products/whatsrenderman/index.htm