Well, renderhjs, you can scale the window up and down, and it fits things in. So I could actually scale that window down to the size you show there.
I don't really have a problem with how Maya is laid out, it's actually pretty similar to Max in terms of the size and positioning of most UI elements.
The thing that bugs me about it is how you interact with the items - mostly they're ok, but sometimes you'll get some god-awful legacy implementation that feels like a holdover from Windows 3.1. The << and >> buttons are my favourite for this, they're so mind-numbingly terrible, archaic and useless, for something that should be a simple draggable column bar.
Hi everyone, I just joined the site as well. I started with 3DS Max R2 but went on to Maya since 2.5. Strictly speaking from an artist viewpoint Maya has the upper hand over Max when it comes to interface usability. Max definately has the advantage in rendering, lighting, maybe even modeling (Maya has NURBS though). I tried Max2009 for a bit and couldn't get around it. Compared to Maya it feels sluggish, awkward and convoluted.
My 750 cents (taking the current exchange rate into effect)
Reverse the two apps and you have the same boat I'm in. Since this thread popped up I've started using Maya more and more just to see what it has to offer. It's a matter of what you've used more as to which way you prefer. Of course since I've been using Max longer I like it and miss some of its features, much like Maya users miss the names of their beloved features. They are nearly identical, the only differences are pretty minor if you stick with them for more then 2 days but there are some major differences at a few points I hope they rectify in BOTH apps.
As for 3dsMax being convoluted, there are those of out there that use those features would really miss them if they where gone. If you don't like Max's all out in the open interface, feel free to change it Customize > User Interface. Same can be said for Maya. Just because you don't have a need for something doesn't mean other users feel the same.
I'm actually starting to like Maya for animation and the cloth is fan-fuckin-tastic. But Max is no slouch for that stuff either. I still relay on Max for modeling. I just haven't gotten around to hacking in, MelScripting, or buying the tools/functionality that Max has that Maya UNLIMITED doesn't.
Also I've managed to port/script somethings that Maya does over to Max to speed us up at work. So learning the other, has helped me make the one I use at work better. It's nice to give both apps a fair shot. Lots to be learned for sure but worth it when you can blend the best of both worlds. Provided you can get over your bias.
The lack of modeling tools shocked me in Maya. I have always heard it slightly different functionality and that those features WHERE in there. Total BS. I know I know, buy nex you'll love it. If I pay to expand modeling functionality I expect polyboost but I get nex. Polyboost isn't necessary, but nex is.
It also would have been great to have a base rig to start out with. Most of the free ones are trash. After about a month I finally have something that is working almost like a base rig should, it wouldn't have been hard to create a small library base rigs and let users load them, instead of spending a few days modifying a base rig, I had to spend a month making my own. If I was making the switch in production that month of down time is something that could be better spent on other things. It's just silly they haven't bothered to incorporate a base rig.
I don't even know where to begin importing mo-cap, I guess I'll need to pick up the MelScripters Bible and get started on a 18mo journey, or be prepared to drop more cash, sigh. Again good rigs available, but for a price and from 3rd parties and you need to modify them to suit your needs.
With software that costs 8 large and is called "unlimited", I shouldn't have to buy more plug-ins to add in the functionality that's been in its cheaper cousin for years...
They are both really great apps but work slightly differently, if you can get around the interface changes and you're iccky poo-poo 3dsMax has cooties ideas, you'll be a pretty versatile artist who's happy using both.
I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on XSI and Cinema4D? Branch out see what everyone has to offer, don't be so quick to judge.
If you walk into something biased, don't be surprised when you walk out, with a biased opinion.
silo has a awesome learning curve,- in fact I modify many shortcuts in 3dsmax towards the ones from silo - because they just make sense and are well thought.
Modo is some great parts,- like the tool pipeline (similar to the macro recording in max), the uv editor wich is one of the best from the bigger packages (except unique stuff like UVlayout).
never really used XSI but I hear only good things about it- the thing I guess is that its less used in the industry as max or maya. Same applies to C4d and Lightwave. Lightwave might be interesting for me as it is supposed to be very fast and responsive,- but I dunno about the scripting abilities.
The lack of modeling tools shocked me in Maya. I have always heard it slightly different functionality and that those features WHERE in there. Total BS.
You make it sound as if Maya has no Modeling Tools, which isn't true. Which specific features were you missing exactly ?
With software that costs 8 large and is called "unlimited", I shouldn't have to buy more plug-ins to add in the functionality that's been in its cheaper cousin for years...
They dropped the price of Unlimited to 5k some months ago. Maya Complete is at 2k. The only stuff that Unlimited has over Complete is ( afaik ) Fur, Cloth, Fluids and Hair, the rest is the same.
You make it sound as if Maya has no Modeling Tools, which isn't true. Which specific features were you missing exactly ?
I don't mean to sound like its a 2 toed sloth, it has some great features I like using it, but I miss...
- Previewing of what tools are going to do.
- Pivots. 3dsMax = Local, world, view, parent, working & grid. Maya = Edit pivot.
- Modifier Stack.
- Constrain to face, edge, poly. This might be in Maya and I just haven't found it yet.
These are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Any tips and pointers besides go buy Nex would be great. I hope you guys just haven't made due without and don't care, these things can really improve your work flow.
They dropped the price of Unlimited to 5k some months ago. Maya Complete is at 2k. The only stuff that Unlimited has over Complete is ( afaik ) Fur, Cloth, Fluids and Hair, the rest is the same.
I use cloth, hair and dynamics every day at work, so complete isn't nearly complete enough for what we do. It's good to hear the price dropped though, it was over inflated before. That will help me make my case for putting a few copies of Unlimited in the budget. Mind you, because I am recommending that we buy and start to use Maya it doesn't mean we are switching or that 3dsMax is the devil.
I don't mean to sound like its a 2 toed sloth, it has some great features I like using it, but I miss...
- Previewing of what tools are going to do.
- Pivots. 3dsMax = Local, world, view, parent, working & grid. Maya = Edit pivot.
- Modifier Stack.
- Constrain to face, edge, poly. This might be in Maya and I just haven't found it yet.
These are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
- Previewing of what tools are going to do: Yeah, that one doesn't exist.
- Pivots: Like you said you can edit the pivot, or if you double click the move tool (this is for the move tool only) you can get some constraining options, or local, world, view, etc. You can actually double click the rotation/scale tools as well for some nifty features (like reflection across as axis if your model is symetrical).
-Modifier Stack: Is just history...this is their best implementation of it.
- Constain to face, edge, poly: Do you mean snap? The icons at the top with magnets snap to stuff. Snap to curves lets you snap to edges. There's no snap to face, unless you do "Make Live".
Having a local pivot is great for each object, that way its up axis doesn't always have to face the world's up. I'll use the working pivot to mirror/symmetry groups of objects around a common pivot without destroying their local pivot. It makes it so I can work on rotated objects as if they had never been rotated because they retain their local pivot.
It's kind of hard to explain but really annoying when its gone. And constantly moving and aligning the pivot as you work it not an adequate solution when you need to toggle between them not to mention its not accurate.
Example of constrain to edge: Select a vert, turn on constrain to edge and now the vert only moves along edges. Great for keeping the integrity of faces and still being able to move verts all over.
I agree with Silo being a great modeling tool. I've always said I wish they would replace Edit Poly with Silo heh, same for Maya. I've stopped using it at work since I do more animation but love it.
With "local Pivot", do you mean the Object-Space of an Object ? You can switch to that easily by holding down the respective Tool Button and Left-Click. The Object-Space of an Object will only be "destroyed" if you do a Freeze Transformations on it, or Merge it with another Object, and probably in a few other cases too.
So say you want to move an Object along one of it's local Axiseseseses, hold down W and hold the LMB to get a Marking Menu that lets you choose a few things.
Constraining to Edges : Hold down C and MMB-Drag along the Edge you want to move the currently selected Components along.
Nah, I know what Vig means by the pivot options, I'm gonna assemble a quick image to show all the Max options for pivot points. There's about 8x as many options as Maya gives.
Edit: Here's a quick rundown of the Max pivot options. Maya seriously lacks in most of these. For example, it is possible to align your Move axis orientation to a face, but that requires a manual menu operation for EVERY TIME you want to align to a new face. Max does this automatically.
Welcome to the wooooorld of tomorrow!!
--huge image of hate--
Holy shit MoP, sounds like you hate Maya almost as much as I hate Max! Seriously though, I was wondering how Max does this hotkey thing--pray tell
edit: dude, totally diggin the new boards. it's, umm, been a while since I've been around, but it makes me want to come back all the time (what! where's our green smilies?!)
coldwolf, it's not that I hate Maya, in fact I quite like a lot of its tools and functionality.
It's not about "hate". It's about speed of use, and ease of interaction. There's just so much about it which is generally legacy, stuck in the past or clearly disorganised.
That image was just an example of how something which SHOULD be a simple operation actually involves far too much manual digging and setting up of things which should ALREADY BE THERE.
Max's Hotkey stuff is in the Customize -> Customize User Interface menu, then look in the Keyboard tab. I could tell you a bunch of my gripes with that too, it's far from perfect, but at least the commands have the same name in the hotkey editor as they do in the main UI.
But yeah, like I say, it's not that I "hate" Maya. There's just so much stuff that is just designed really poorly in terms of user interaction. If I knew how to write application code, I could probably speed up a huge amount of the simple interactions that I do every day (renaming layers, editing shelf icons), just stuff which is generally good for user interactivity, but isn't set up sensibly at all.
As I have said many times before, the same thing applies to Max, just in different areas. The good thing about Max is that all the modelling tools HAVE been streamlined to be as simple and context-sensitive as possible.
Maya lacks a huge amount of context-sensitivity. It lets you use commands when there's no possible way they could work, and has analogous tools as separate commands when they could be combined into a single context-sensitive thing. Stuff like "Merge UVs" and "Merge Vertices" are two separate commands, yet you never have a UV selection at the same time as a Vertex selection, so why not put them both on the same hotkey? I know you can script it, but this is stuff that Max does by default.
That's an interesting point actually. A lot of UI designers and savvy users have their doubts about contextual behavior because it's unpredictable to them, sometimes, and often quickly leads to confusion in bigger apps. (eg "how do I get to that one option I saw earlier?!")
But I am definitely in the contextual boat myself as I think it simplifies the immediate interface and allows only relevant information be presented to users when they need it. This is one of the reasons why I prefer modo's interface than either Max or Maya--it's incredibly easy to alter your environment to fit your current needs, plus it has context-sensitive controls, plus you can script it in any language you want (as opposed to Max/Maya's proprietary languages). That was a bit of a rant actually, sorry.
Anyway, it's refreshing to know you're leaving emotions out of this and staying as objective as possible. That's not easy to do
Thanks for doing that, its a perfect example. I'm sure people who haven't used it will roll their eyes and be happy taking 3x as long, but I really want this functionality in Maya and I don't really see a way to get it set up, I'm not even sure it can be mel'ed...
Vig: NEX plugin goes a small way to adding some extra pivot point functions, but only in component mode when you're modelling - you're still stuck with the Maya defaults when editing whole objects.
Well, here´s an example, as for everybody is doing, I will do it too : there´s a thing i cannot do in Max that in Maya I can, select the vertices of all objects at the same time. Also, in Max you cant edit 3 objects in the sametime as in Maya I can. Thinking on these issues, I totally agree, Max is for editing one asset good, but in the same time you cannot edit things together, only if you attach everything, ofcourse you will lose all your pivots and you will need to start again. History in Maya is absolutely the best thing I saw in my life, Max is limited on that, and I totally use history for things. Also, by selection, you can edit shelf or menus in Maya to make everything you want, and that´s easy, some people just dont know how to use manipulation menus. With Nex, some of Max things went to Maya, some not, but also, in the same way, Max over the years copied alot of Maya features and used aswell. Also for DirectX Max, you cannot edit fastly enough something with normal map or spec map as in Maya I can, everytime I use Max with DirectX on when i select anything and move it takes alot of time to refresh. In Maya with HighQuality Render you edit it easely and fast and do whatever you want to. So, for a Highend software user, and at the same time for pleasure, users use Maya.
I don´t consider myself confortable using Max anymore just because of time issues. I also do not think that Maya is for film and Max is for games anymore. In an interview of a Blizzard employee I read that they reached the Max limits to make cinematics, and they are also employing Maya users for games now as they see why in a big company Maya can be better for its workflow. I am not saying that Max can´t do! But everyone I see that look at Maya potentials wants to get off from Max, but there are some that dont want to learn Maya only because of oldness vicious and love from that software, and dont evolute.
I am also very interested seeing XSI features as everybody is talking to! And if XSI can be better why not switching or learning?
I am also very interested seeing XSI features as everybody is talking to! And if XSI can be better why not switching or learning?
Inertia caused by the number of seats installed and having to retrain would probably be why.
On editing multiple objects: Select both objects and put on an Edit Poly, make the changes, collapse, and they'll come back out separately. Setting pivots seems to be a fundamental difference between the two programs. Max's pivot point / selection center with the world/local/screen/etc really works well for me, but (if you're used to) moving the pivot those tools would be a bit slow.
Ahh but apply an edit poly modifier when you have multiple objects selected it will make it almost exactly like Maya, being able to edit a bunch of seperate objects all at the same time. It instances the modifier and keeps them as seperate objects. You can edit them individually or as a whole.
As for the directX slow down in 3dsMax it really depends on what video card and what drivers you use. I use 3dsMax to bake normals of 2-3 million poly objects and get a comfortable 30fps, maya no way. But I hear its a big difference if you use ATI with Maya, for some reason Nvidia runs worse, not sure why. I hear there are work arounds but it runs fast enough.
Well, here´s an example, as for everybody is doing, I will do it too : there´s a thing i cannot do in Max that in Maya I can, select the vertices of all objects at the same time. Also, in Max you cant edit 3 objects in the sametime as in Maya I can.
What Vig said. It's definitely possible, just add an Edit Poly modifier on top of your selection. This will allow you to edit multiple objects, and keep all their pivot points individually.
History in Maya is absolutely the best thing I saw in my life, Max is limited on that, and I totally use history for things.
The Max stack is considerably more powerful than Maya's history. I could record a video of doing something in Max which you definitely CAN'T do in Maya (and this isn't just a thing I don't know how to do, it's actually just not possible in Maya because of how History works).
Also, by selection, you can edit shelf or menus in Maya to make everything you want, and that´s easy, some people just dont know how to use manipulation menus.
Also for DirectX Max, you cannot edit fastly enough something with normal map or spec map as in Maya I can, everytime I use Max with DirectX on when i select anything and move it takes alot of time to refresh.
You are right, this is a bit bad, it causes slow undo - but this only happens if you use the "DX Preview of Standard material" - if you change the material to "DX shader" and select a ".fx" file (Max comes with "StandardBump.fx" which is better than Maya's default "high quality rendering" shader), and that works perfectly fast.
Once again it's just stuff you need to know how to do, in order to get it working right. There's tons of stuff that's exactly the same in Maya.
MoP, great, good that i know now how faster this DXshader can be in Max, as I was totally pissed of using it. But as for History in Max, i am not saying like a video, but as for extrusion, combining (attach), everything, every tool or function Maya have its history, also almost everything you can see in Mel and make custom commands to make something easier and faster, that can be good or bad, for an example, when you attach something in Max I dont get history (tell me if im wrong), AND thats GOOD, because isnt needed 90% of the time to use an combine/attach history, but like for extrusion in Maya, i get all the history i need to change angle, subdivision etc, and you can block other histories and edit only one or more in channel mixer and in attributes editor. So, im not looking for a video, also, there´s a script for Maya in Highend that does exactly the same thing in Max about the video. So its the way you want to use, not the way you HAVE to use. As about selection im not saying quadmenus or something like that doesnt exist or arent great, im talking about that someone said that this is not possible in Maya, and IT IS, they just dont know, and since Maya 2 these type of menus exist. So, in all softwares these things are possible, even by code or something. I didnt say its not possible, I said i couldnt do the way Maya have its features. And I said its easier in Maya for me, but it can be easier for others in Max. If there´s something I said here that in Max exists, please tell me, I want to know about.
Again, Maya isnt for cinematics only, its all in a package, but you need to customize it for you, but even that i used for years the default hotkeys and workflow of Maya and I dont have too much to claim about. We all know people making great things in Max and also making the same in Maya. So, you really have to use what you are confortable about. And for me is Maya.
You are right, this is a bit bad, it causes slow undo - but this only happens if you use the "DX Preview of Standard material"...
Seems fixed in 2009 x64. Unfortunately they killed driver driven antialiasing and the 64 bit version seems a bit slower (multiple MR sample spheres in the mat ed for example). What you lose on the swings you gain on the roundabouts I guess.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what bugo is saying is that in Maya you can select whatever you like at the same time, like verts from one object, faces from another and a bunch of other objects and transform them at once, this has come in very handy at times.
And like you say you can add a edit poly modifier, move stuff, collapse, but that just seems like alot more complicated than just selecting and transforming
Is there any equivalent of maya's middle mouse button function i max? Using the middle mouse button anywhere in the viewport will affect selected object/components along the active axis (translate, rotate, scale) it will also scale any selected numeric value. This in combination with the shift functionality to constrain to an axis (like in PS) and ctrl clicking to move along a 2D plane, makes the transformation in Maya super smooth
For me, this is the number one time saver, and something I would have a hard time without....
But maybe you can do that in Max now? I haven't used it for a while.
ivars, yeah, you're right - I do like that I can just grab however many objects I want in Maya and be able to edit components from all of them easily - I do wish that Max had that ability!
As for middlemouse, no, I don't think Max has a setup to work like that (although CrazyButcher wrote a Maxscript to make it more like LW-style transformation, ie. snaps to nearest axis on move). Most of the time you just have to use the gizmos. Again, this is something that could (should!) be improved.
I do like that Middlemouse is used to scale/affect numeric values too, quite handy sometimes to just change a value without being near the text box for it.
Then again it's also pretty frustrating that all of these tweakable commands are available in the History (like if you Bevel something then go back to the History for that node, and middle-mouse on the Bevel Width or similar), but there's no actual preview for doing it in the first place! Pretty much every other app has interactive previewing of poly modelling tools (ie. see the effects BEFORE you apply the command), but Maya has none of it... but the most annoying this is that it clearly HAS the ability to do it (since you can tweak interactively after the fact), but it's just not set up in a way that's faster for workflow.
I have no idea if it'd be possible to script all the Maya poly modelling tools to do the interactive display while you're editing it, but it sounds like a lot of work even if it is possible.
Basically I just want to be able to do a poly modelling operation and know that it's right BEFORE I even hit "apply" ... rather than make a guess at a bevel width, then find out it's wrong, have to open the History for that operation, find the value I want to tweak, and tweak it there. It's just not a very efficient workflow.
I'm not sure I quite understand the middle mouse question and I'm away from Maya right now so I'll have to try it out later, but is it that you can adjust the value by holding the MMB down and moving the mouse up/down?
Click + drag up/down in any of 3dsMax's spinners lets you control the value without having to type it in, or use the up/down arrows. Mixed with preview its really handy. But the pointer needs to be in the box to effect the value. Kind of cool to think you can effect it without being near it. As for the gizmo its not that hard to adjust to. Mayas way of handling it is kind of nice but I wouldn't call it a deal breaker either way.
I find the the lack of preview crippling and I really hope someone either comes up with an alternative or they actually stop innovating and fix what they have.
I tried out nex yesterday, it is a great improvement and has a lot of previewed features but still falls a bit short I was hoping for a port of polyboost. BUT it made Maya much more useable for modeling and I think I could get on well enough without 3dsMax if I could use Nex. Silly those tools and the ideology behind them isn't in Maya already.
For now since I can use both, and I only have the trial of Nex, I'll use 3dsMax for modeling and Maya for rigging/animation/dynamics simulation when I can. Rendering seems to be about the same when using Mental Ray and I haven't tried out Maya VRay but I imagine its the same story. Honestly I think VRay is overblown, a lot of what it does, can be done much faster using standard lights/rendering techniques, but I digress.
It's been an education for sure, and I'd like to thank everyone that helped answer my noobish questions in this thread and in others! I'm sure I'll have more!
There´s a good Draster.com plugin that ables you to exactly pan, rotate and etc on the viewport like Maya in Max. That is the easiest way for a Maya user to learn Max first.
Vig: The scaling of values is not the main thing (you can also crtl+LMB click and drag in any numeric type in box to scale the value), it's how the transforms works .... it's kinda hard to explain.... But it basically means you don't have to locate and click on the gizmo/manipulator to transform stuff, just use the middle mouse button wherever in the viewport. Just clicking will move/rotate along the camera plane, using shift will lock to any axis depending on direction (like PS)
Ahh I've been using the gizmo the entire time, ha. I'll have to try it out, I could really come to love that. I remember missing that when I moved from MilkShape to 3dsMax, its about the only thing I missed heh. I might have to give CB's script a try if it works close to the Maya method.
Nah, it's more like the LW method, except it's a toggle rather than a thing that becomes active while holding down a key - in LW you hold CTRL and it moves along the closest axis to your movement, while in CB's script you press a button to toggle this mode, then again to turn it off.
It's not really much like Maya's method at all. You can't hold CTRL and move in the perpendicular plane of an axis either.
So I went to an Autodesk seminar today and learned a few things.
Maya with the latest expansion has "local pivots" that align to the average normal, edge or vert.
They are also releasing this week (on thearea.com) level tools, which looks pretty handy for laying out instances of objects. It builds a small icon library of FBX files found in designated folders. Click the icon, click to place. It also has a handy live align feature that was pretty slick.
I'd say they've gone a long way in closing the gap in poly modeling tools also, but some of the "new and totally awesome features to Maya" have been in other apps for years so someone in the back even stood up and said "finally, about time" when he rolled out some of the "new tools" everyone laughed. Still lots of right click click click sub menu BS but I guess thats what customization is for...
They also showed off some great tricks for skinning, transferring skin weights and the full body IK/FK system is pretty slick and easy to set up now that they redesigned it.
Both apps now have selection preview, and smart selection, making it easy to select faces, edges or verts by just hovering. Also in 3dsMax if you hold ctrl it lets you paint selection. They demo'ed pretty much the same thing in Maya but I forgot how to do it =/
All in all it was almost worth the 6hrs just to learn more about Maya.
Then again it's also pretty frustrating that all of these tweakable commands are available in the History (like if you Bevel something then go back to the History for that node, and middle-mouse on the Bevel Width or similar), but there's no actual preview for doing it in the first place!
This has always bugged me too and I just had a talk with tacit about it. I came up with a quick and shoddy but functional solution
{
//polyBevel + drag Attribute Context + open in history
string $bevelName[] = `polyBevel -oaf 1`;
if (!`contextInfo -ex FBdragAttrCtx`)
dragAttrContext FBdragAttrCtx;
just drag that shiznit to your shelf and use that instead of the normal bevel. You can change the settings on the polyBevel if you feel like it.
Then it'll pop open the node in the history and enable a 'virtual slider' (MMB to change the offset)
I was just about to dig this thread up to ask a question, handy you already did it. Thanks FB and for the script too, I've shelved it heh.
Now onto my question:
I'm trying to figure out how to flip edges. I've tried looking for something similar to 3dsMax's "edit triangulation" but for the life of me can't find it. How do you guys get around this, where is it!?
So far my solution is, to export via FBX to 3dsmax, flip the edges and import into maya. Total BS since I'm sure Maya can do this, I just don't know how, heh.
Sometimes Maya's auto triangulation (in polys) is not how I want the edges to go and for proper deformation I need to flip them. I guess as a last step I have to triangulate the object and force the edges? But that is really inflexible... and I'm not even sure if I can do that (away from Maya right now).
yeah, as far as I know, there is no way to edit hidden edges. Maya's always flipping the hidden edges to fit the geometry 'better' .
I suppose you could manually create each face that you don't like, but that's dumb hehe
Maya will always triangulate quads automatically. It's a bloody nightmare, considering how easily Max deals with it. I brought this point up in my Maya 2008 thread a while back, I know Arshlevon was having similar troubles.
The ONLY solution to Maya auto-triangulating is to run the Triangulate command on it, which of course leaves you with a 100% triangulated mesh whether you like it or not. And of course when you're normalmapping, you always want to know which way your tris are running so as not to break the normalmap after baking, therefore you must always triangulate, meaning more headaches down the line later if you have to come back and edit it. Colossal waste of time, and something I hope they improve bloody soon.
after reading through this thread a bit more, I decided it would be cool to make a beefier script than my last bevel thing, but on a bunch more tools.
So now it creates a menu on the main ui for easy management and for certain tools, it either opens up the node in the history and sets up a 'virtual slider' with the MMB or pops up an interactive gui with all the options in it based on your choice.
I think it's pretty much done so you can grab it here if you want: FBoptionsPlus.mel
just drop it in your scripts folder like any other mel script and run 'FBoptionsPlus' from the commandline.
if you want the menu to be up every session, just run this code in the script editor:
[color=yellow]{
//This simply edits your usersetup.mel file to enable the menu every session
string = (`internalVar -userScriptDir` + "usersetup.mel");
int = `fopen "a"`;
fprint (" FBoptionsPlus(); ");
fclose ;
}[/color]
[edit: argh backslash n's weren't showing up on this post so i removed them]
let me know if you have any problems or suggestions
With Maya I've been using Notepad++, although I haven't found a good syntax highlighting preset for MEL yet. The "TCL" default seems to work pretty well for getting things though.
You should give Context a try.. Its got a great MEL highlighter, and their MSX highlighter is pretty weak. Might try to add to it, found the 3DSMax 2008 highlighter to be adequate for the time being. The website has too many highlighters to list so they make you search for the one you want, ontop of the many of hundreds of highlighters it provides by default. Many people that use UltraEdit have heard of Context from my experience. I just prefer it for its stability and ease of use... Not saying UltraEdit isn't, just fell in love with Context first.
Thanks for doing that, its a perfect example. I'm sure people who haven't used it will roll their eyes and be happy taking 3x as long, but I really want this functionality in Maya and I don't really see a way to get it set up, I'm not even sure it can be mel'ed...
It can be mel'ed quite easily.. Its just that once you are using the couple of pivot points there's no reason to need anymore. Especually if you become accustomed to the workflow. But that's what usually sets off these debates IMHO.
Also a side note, when I was learning Max back in the yester years, the multi pivots was extremely confusing cause I would accidently trip the different pivots via keyboard shortcuts, and was animating with auto-key on and wondering why my object was doing stuff I never animated.. I was not a happy camper.
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I don't really have a problem with how Maya is laid out, it's actually pretty similar to Max in terms of the size and positioning of most UI elements.
The thing that bugs me about it is how you interact with the items - mostly they're ok, but sometimes you'll get some god-awful legacy implementation that feels like a holdover from Windows 3.1. The << and >> buttons are my favourite for this, they're so mind-numbingly terrible, archaic and useless, for something that should be a simple draggable column bar.
My 750 cents (taking the current exchange rate into effect)
Reverse the two apps and you have the same boat I'm in. Since this thread popped up I've started using Maya more and more just to see what it has to offer. It's a matter of what you've used more as to which way you prefer. Of course since I've been using Max longer I like it and miss some of its features, much like Maya users miss the names of their beloved features. They are nearly identical, the only differences are pretty minor if you stick with them for more then 2 days but there are some major differences at a few points I hope they rectify in BOTH apps.
As for 3dsMax being convoluted, there are those of out there that use those features would really miss them if they where gone. If you don't like Max's all out in the open interface, feel free to change it Customize > User Interface. Same can be said for Maya. Just because you don't have a need for something doesn't mean other users feel the same.
I'm actually starting to like Maya for animation and the cloth is fan-fuckin-tastic. But Max is no slouch for that stuff either. I still relay on Max for modeling. I just haven't gotten around to hacking in, MelScripting, or buying the tools/functionality that Max has that Maya UNLIMITED doesn't.
Also I've managed to port/script somethings that Maya does over to Max to speed us up at work. So learning the other, has helped me make the one I use at work better. It's nice to give both apps a fair shot. Lots to be learned for sure but worth it when you can blend the best of both worlds. Provided you can get over your bias.
The lack of modeling tools shocked me in Maya. I have always heard it slightly different functionality and that those features WHERE in there. Total BS. I know I know, buy nex you'll love it. If I pay to expand modeling functionality I expect polyboost but I get nex. Polyboost isn't necessary, but nex is.
It also would have been great to have a base rig to start out with. Most of the free ones are trash. After about a month I finally have something that is working almost like a base rig should, it wouldn't have been hard to create a small library base rigs and let users load them, instead of spending a few days modifying a base rig, I had to spend a month making my own. If I was making the switch in production that month of down time is something that could be better spent on other things. It's just silly they haven't bothered to incorporate a base rig.
I don't even know where to begin importing mo-cap, I guess I'll need to pick up the MelScripters Bible and get started on a 18mo journey, or be prepared to drop more cash, sigh. Again good rigs available, but for a price and from 3rd parties and you need to modify them to suit your needs.
With software that costs 8 large and is called "unlimited", I shouldn't have to buy more plug-ins to add in the functionality that's been in its cheaper cousin for years...
They are both really great apps but work slightly differently, if you can get around the interface changes and you're iccky poo-poo 3dsMax has cooties ideas, you'll be a pretty versatile artist who's happy using both.
I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on XSI and Cinema4D? Branch out see what everyone has to offer, don't be so quick to judge.
If you walk into something biased, don't be surprised when you walk out, with a biased opinion.
Modo is some great parts,- like the tool pipeline (similar to the macro recording in max), the uv editor wich is one of the best from the bigger packages (except unique stuff like UVlayout).
never really used XSI but I hear only good things about it- the thing I guess is that its less used in the industry as max or maya. Same applies to C4d and Lightwave. Lightwave might be interesting for me as it is supposed to be very fast and responsive,- but I dunno about the scripting abilities.
You make it sound as if Maya has no Modeling Tools, which isn't true. Which specific features were you missing exactly ?
They dropped the price of Unlimited to 5k some months ago. Maya Complete is at 2k. The only stuff that Unlimited has over Complete is ( afaik ) Fur, Cloth, Fluids and Hair, the rest is the same.
- Previewing of what tools are going to do.
- Pivots. 3dsMax = Local, world, view, parent, working & grid. Maya = Edit pivot.
- Modifier Stack.
- Constrain to face, edge, poly. This might be in Maya and I just haven't found it yet.
These are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Any tips and pointers besides go buy Nex would be great. I hope you guys just haven't made due without and don't care, these things can really improve your work flow.
I use cloth, hair and dynamics every day at work, so complete isn't nearly complete enough for what we do. It's good to hear the price dropped though, it was over inflated before. That will help me make my case for putting a few copies of Unlimited in the budget. Mind you, because I am recommending that we buy and start to use Maya it doesn't mean we are switching or that 3dsMax is the devil.
- Previewing of what tools are going to do: Yeah, that one doesn't exist.
- Pivots: Like you said you can edit the pivot, or if you double click the move tool (this is for the move tool only) you can get some constraining options, or local, world, view, etc. You can actually double click the rotation/scale tools as well for some nifty features (like reflection across as axis if your model is symetrical).
-Modifier Stack: Is just history...this is their best implementation of it.
- Constain to face, edge, poly: Do you mean snap? The icons at the top with magnets snap to stuff. Snap to curves lets you snap to edges. There's no snap to face, unless you do "Make Live".
It's kind of hard to explain but really annoying when its gone. And constantly moving and aligning the pivot as you work it not an adequate solution when you need to toggle between them not to mention its not accurate.
Example of constrain to edge: Select a vert, turn on constrain to edge and now the vert only moves along edges. Great for keeping the integrity of faces and still being able to move verts all over.
I agree with Silo being a great modeling tool. I've always said I wish they would replace Edit Poly with Silo heh, same for Maya. I've stopped using it at work since I do more animation but love it.
So say you want to move an Object along one of it's local Axiseseseses, hold down W and hold the LMB to get a Marking Menu that lets you choose a few things.
Constraining to Edges : Hold down C and MMB-Drag along the Edge you want to move the currently selected Components along.
Edit: Here's a quick rundown of the Max pivot options. Maya seriously lacks in most of these. For example, it is possible to align your Move axis orientation to a face, but that requires a manual menu operation for EVERY TIME you want to align to a new face. Max does this automatically.
Holy shit MoP, sounds like you hate Maya almost as much as I hate Max! Seriously though, I was wondering how Max does this hotkey thing--pray tell
edit: dude, totally diggin the new boards. it's, umm, been a while since I've been around, but it makes me want to come back all the time
It's not about "hate". It's about speed of use, and ease of interaction. There's just so much about it which is generally legacy, stuck in the past or clearly disorganised.
That image was just an example of how something which SHOULD be a simple operation actually involves far too much manual digging and setting up of things which should ALREADY BE THERE.
Max's Hotkey stuff is in the Customize -> Customize User Interface menu, then look in the Keyboard tab. I could tell you a bunch of my gripes with that too, it's far from perfect, but at least the commands have the same name in the hotkey editor as they do in the main UI.
But yeah, like I say, it's not that I "hate" Maya. There's just so much stuff that is just designed really poorly in terms of user interaction. If I knew how to write application code, I could probably speed up a huge amount of the simple interactions that I do every day (renaming layers, editing shelf icons), just stuff which is generally good for user interactivity, but isn't set up sensibly at all.
As I have said many times before, the same thing applies to Max, just in different areas. The good thing about Max is that all the modelling tools HAVE been streamlined to be as simple and context-sensitive as possible.
Maya lacks a huge amount of context-sensitivity. It lets you use commands when there's no possible way they could work, and has analogous tools as separate commands when they could be combined into a single context-sensitive thing. Stuff like "Merge UVs" and "Merge Vertices" are two separate commands, yet you never have a UV selection at the same time as a Vertex selection, so why not put them both on the same hotkey? I know you can script it, but this is stuff that Max does by default.
Eh, rant again
But I am definitely in the contextual boat myself as I think it simplifies the immediate interface and allows only relevant information be presented to users when they need it. This is one of the reasons why I prefer modo's interface than either Max or Maya--it's incredibly easy to alter your environment to fit your current needs, plus it has context-sensitive controls, plus you can script it in any language you want (as opposed to Max/Maya's proprietary languages). That was a bit of a rant actually, sorry.
Anyway, it's refreshing to know you're leaving emotions out of this and staying as objective as possible. That's not easy to do
I don´t consider myself confortable using Max anymore just because of time issues. I also do not think that Maya is for film and Max is for games anymore. In an interview of a Blizzard employee I read that they reached the Max limits to make cinematics, and they are also employing Maya users for games now as they see why in a big company Maya can be better for its workflow. I am not saying that Max can´t do! But everyone I see that look at Maya potentials wants to get off from Max, but there are some that dont want to learn Maya only because of oldness vicious and love from that software, and dont evolute.
I am also very interested seeing XSI features as everybody is talking to! And if XSI can be better why not switching or learning?
Inertia caused by the number of seats installed and having to retrain would probably be why.
On editing multiple objects: Select both objects and put on an Edit Poly, make the changes, collapse, and they'll come back out separately. Setting pivots seems to be a fundamental difference between the two programs. Max's pivot point / selection center with the world/local/screen/etc really works well for me, but (if you're used to) moving the pivot those tools would be a bit slow.
As for the directX slow down in 3dsMax it really depends on what video card and what drivers you use. I use 3dsMax to bake normals of 2-3 million poly objects and get a comfortable 30fps, maya no way. But I hear its a big difference if you use ATI with Maya, for some reason Nvidia runs worse, not sure why. I hear there are work arounds but it runs fast enough.
What Vig said. It's definitely possible, just add an Edit Poly modifier on top of your selection. This will allow you to edit multiple objects, and keep all their pivot points individually.
The Max stack is considerably more powerful than Maya's history. I could record a video of doing something in Max which you definitely CAN'T do in Maya (and this isn't just a thing I don't know how to do, it's actually just not possible in Maya because of how History works).
You can do exactly the same in Max.
You are right, this is a bit bad, it causes slow undo - but this only happens if you use the "DX Preview of Standard material" - if you change the material to "DX shader" and select a ".fx" file (Max comes with "StandardBump.fx" which is better than Maya's default "high quality rendering" shader), and that works perfectly fast.
Once again it's just stuff you need to know how to do, in order to get it working right. There's tons of stuff that's exactly the same in Maya.
Again, Maya isnt for cinematics only, its all in a package, but you need to customize it for you, but even that i used for years the default hotkeys and workflow of Maya and I dont have too much to claim about. We all know people making great things in Max and also making the same in Maya. So, you really have to use what you are confortable about. And for me is Maya.
(MoP, please, see my PM
Seems fixed in 2009 x64. Unfortunately they killed driver driven antialiasing and the 64 bit version seems a bit slower (multiple MR sample spheres in the mat ed for example). What you lose on the swings you gain on the roundabouts I guess.
And like you say you can add a edit poly modifier, move stuff, collapse, but that just seems like alot more complicated than just selecting and transforming
Is there any equivalent of maya's middle mouse button function i max? Using the middle mouse button anywhere in the viewport will affect selected object/components along the active axis (translate, rotate, scale) it will also scale any selected numeric value. This in combination with the shift functionality to constrain to an axis (like in PS) and ctrl clicking to move along a 2D plane, makes the transformation in Maya super smooth
For me, this is the number one time saver, and something I would have a hard time without....
But maybe you can do that in Max now? I haven't used it for a while.
As for middlemouse, no, I don't think Max has a setup to work like that (although CrazyButcher wrote a Maxscript to make it more like LW-style transformation, ie. snaps to nearest axis on move). Most of the time you just have to use the gizmos. Again, this is something that could (should!) be improved.
I do like that Middlemouse is used to scale/affect numeric values too, quite handy sometimes to just change a value without being near the text box for it.
Then again it's also pretty frustrating that all of these tweakable commands are available in the History (like if you Bevel something then go back to the History for that node, and middle-mouse on the Bevel Width or similar), but there's no actual preview for doing it in the first place! Pretty much every other app has interactive previewing of poly modelling tools (ie. see the effects BEFORE you apply the command), but Maya has none of it... but the most annoying this is that it clearly HAS the ability to do it (since you can tweak interactively after the fact), but it's just not set up in a way that's faster for workflow.
I have no idea if it'd be possible to script all the Maya poly modelling tools to do the interactive display while you're editing it, but it sounds like a lot of work even if it is possible.
Basically I just want to be able to do a poly modelling operation and know that it's right BEFORE I even hit "apply" ... rather than make a guess at a bevel width, then find out it's wrong, have to open the History for that operation, find the value I want to tweak, and tweak it there. It's just not a very efficient workflow.
Click + drag up/down in any of 3dsMax's spinners lets you control the value without having to type it in, or use the up/down arrows. Mixed with preview its really handy. But the pointer needs to be in the box to effect the value. Kind of cool to think you can effect it without being near it. As for the gizmo its not that hard to adjust to. Mayas way of handling it is kind of nice but I wouldn't call it a deal breaker either way.
I find the the lack of preview crippling and I really hope someone either comes up with an alternative or they actually stop innovating and fix what they have.
I tried out nex yesterday, it is a great improvement and has a lot of previewed features but still falls a bit short I was hoping for a port of polyboost. BUT it made Maya much more useable for modeling and I think I could get on well enough without 3dsMax if I could use Nex. Silly those tools and the ideology behind them isn't in Maya already.
For now since I can use both, and I only have the trial of Nex, I'll use 3dsMax for modeling and Maya for rigging/animation/dynamics simulation when I can. Rendering seems to be about the same when using Mental Ray and I haven't tried out Maya VRay but I imagine its the same story. Honestly I think VRay is overblown, a lot of what it does, can be done much faster using standard lights/rendering techniques, but I digress.
It's been an education for sure, and I'd like to thank everyone that helped answer my noobish questions in this thread and in others! I'm sure I'll have more!
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It's not really much like Maya's method at all. You can't hold CTRL and move in the perpendicular plane of an axis either.
Maya with the latest expansion has "local pivots" that align to the average normal, edge or vert.
They are also releasing this week (on thearea.com) level tools, which looks pretty handy for laying out instances of objects. It builds a small icon library of FBX files found in designated folders. Click the icon, click to place. It also has a handy live align feature that was pretty slick.
I'd say they've gone a long way in closing the gap in poly modeling tools also, but some of the "new and totally awesome features to Maya" have been in other apps for years so someone in the back even stood up and said "finally, about time" when he rolled out some of the "new tools" everyone laughed. Still lots of right click click click sub menu BS but I guess thats what customization is for...
They also showed off some great tricks for skinning, transferring skin weights and the full body IK/FK system is pretty slick and easy to set up now that they redesigned it.
Both apps now have selection preview, and smart selection, making it easy to select faces, edges or verts by just hovering. Also in 3dsMax if you hold ctrl it lets you paint selection. They demo'ed pretty much the same thing in Maya but I forgot how to do it =/
All in all it was almost worth the 6hrs just to learn more about Maya.
This has always bugged me too and I just had a talk with tacit about it. I came up with a quick and shoddy but functional solution
- {
just drag that shiznit to your shelf and use that instead of the normal bevel. You can change the settings on the polyBevel if you feel like it.//polyBevel + drag Attribute Context + open in history
string $bevelName[] = `polyBevel -oaf 1`;
if (!`contextInfo -ex FBdragAttrCtx`)
dragAttrContext FBdragAttrCtx;
select -addFirst $bevelName[0];
dragAttrContext -edit -connectTo ($bevelName[0]+".offset") FBdragAttrCtx;
setToolTo FBdragAttrCtx;
}
Then it'll pop open the node in the history and enable a 'virtual slider' (MMB to change the offset)
(P.S. - what's the vbcode for code these days?)
Ok I feel better now, I go back on Maya finish my background.
There is not autoback on Maya???? I have to script a stupid stuff one more time?
Now onto my question:
I'm trying to figure out how to flip edges. I've tried looking for something similar to 3dsMax's "edit triangulation" but for the life of me can't find it. How do you guys get around this, where is it!?
So far my solution is, to export via FBX to 3dsmax, flip the edges and import into maya. Total BS since I'm sure Maya can do this, I just don't know how, heh.
If its not...Maya auto triangulates ngons. It doesn't let you.
I suppose you could manually create each face that you don't like, but that's dumb hehe
The ONLY solution to Maya auto-triangulating is to run the Triangulate command on it, which of course leaves you with a 100% triangulated mesh whether you like it or not. And of course when you're normalmapping, you always want to know which way your tris are running so as not to break the normalmap after baking, therefore you must always triangulate, meaning more headaches down the line later if you have to come back and edit it. Colossal waste of time, and something I hope they improve bloody soon.
So now it creates a menu on the main ui for easy management and for certain tools, it either opens up the node in the history and sets up a 'virtual slider' with the MMB or pops up an interactive gui with all the options in it based on your choice.
I think it's pretty much done so you can grab it here if you want: FBoptionsPlus.mel
just drop it in your scripts folder like any other mel script and run 'FBoptionsPlus' from the commandline.
if you want the menu to be up every session, just run this code in the script editor:
[color=yellow]{ //This simply edits your usersetup.mel file to enable the menu every session string = (`internalVar -userScriptDir` + "usersetup.mel"); int = `fopen "a"`; fprint (" FBoptionsPlus(); "); fclose ; }[/color][edit: argh backslash n's weren't showing up on this post so i removed them]
let me know if you have any problems or suggestions
You should give Context a try.. Its got a great MEL highlighter, and their MSX highlighter is pretty weak. Might try to add to it, found the 3DSMax 2008 highlighter to be adequate for the time being. The website has too many highlighters to list so they make you search for the one you want, ontop of the many of hundreds of highlighters it provides by default. Many people that use UltraEdit have heard of Context from my experience. I just prefer it for its stability and ease of use... Not saying UltraEdit isn't, just fell in love with Context first.
It can be mel'ed quite easily.. Its just that once you are using the couple of pivot points there's no reason to need anymore. Especually if you become accustomed to the workflow. But that's what usually sets off these debates IMHO.
Also a side note, when I was learning Max back in the yester years, the multi pivots was extremely confusing cause I would accidently trip the different pivots via keyboard shortcuts, and was animating with auto-key on and wondering why my object was doing stuff I never animated.. I was not a happy camper.