What to do? (Long and Rambling)
polycounter lvl 18
Okay folks, long time, no see. But a bit of a recap.
After Castaway Entertainment came to a sad, but gracefull end in 2006, I flopped around until March trying to find work. when at GDC I got an offer and signed up with a start up called Collision Studios, but I would have to relocate to Los Angeles. So by the end of march and a $4000.00 loan I had moved myself near the sleepy comunity of Venice Beach and started work for Collision. Well it didn't work out and I was asked to leave in May, and I spent the balance of 2006 on State Unemployment and sucking down my savings. They hired me back in February of 2007 to work on a Nintendo Wii title: Ultimate Duck Hunter: Hunting and Retrieving Ducks.
The contract I signed was an unavoidable mistake, on paper it was February to May with a payout of 21K (A schedule that even 3do at its worst never was that short to produce a finished game) We did have all the assets of Mid Carolina Media's original game, but not many were usable. The problem with the contract was that the company, and by extension I, would only be paid upon acceptance of the Milestone, which meant Collision had no control over its revenue stream at the time. So as the problems mounted the period between checks became longer and longer. The job was a bit stressful because of this, and finally when the game went to Nintendo of America for approval the turn around would take 2-3 weeks and they would return with a bug report. (Never use Hindu Game testers over seas). Finally in June, the game was "done" and in Nintendo's hands and awaiting approval by Nintendo of Japan and Collision used the end ot the game to release a whole bunch of us out onto the street, keeping all the programmers and newly minted artists from nearby Otis Scjhool of the Arts. The got a new inflow of money to move into new quarters nearer the beach and work on their Movie License Title for "Jumper".
So with eligibility for unemployment gone, I had to get work and I got a job as a parcel messenger in Hollywood, and drastically downsized my life to a small apartment near downtown L.A. (To bad no more E3's at Staples Center..)
But I have been doing a lot of thinking if I even want to be back in the games industry again? I do want.. no.. need a creative job at some point. Honestly, I Can't hack the "Next Generation " though, and that same lack of education and skill at photorealism keeps me from taking any Hollywood jobs. I just don't have the chops for the hair by hair, pore by pore, vein by vein, stitch by stitch content creation that the AAA titles, and Hollywood Special Effects demand,(I also still can't rig well, and just sort of fail at commandline and math related tasks) So I have decided to concentrate more on Animation, which I can do. Even taking time to learn Flash MX for that 2D thing) But I am feeling too jaded and wary to re-enter days of crunch schedules, long hours in the dark, employment instability (especially after eating my savings completely), and age-ism of th games industry to look upon getting into it again with any enthusiasm. But the current jjob isn't payingthe bills either and has NO path of upward mobility and with the price of gas I am actually losing money each month.(ither than a puny wage, the job is kind of fun tho..) I am supplimenting my income somewhat by making High end WW2 Aircraft classic cars and mens hats for Second Life, but that's just a couple of hundred dollars a month, not a living wage by any means.
I have a model that I and a friend built together, trying for something of a Pixar look, and I want to do some Dialogue and acting as well as the usual movement and action moves, but what to do? I have been advised against the the usual "Demo Reel", and make something 2-3 minutes and funny. I dont feel particularly funy though,these days.
I am open to duggestions, but I really dont have any strong ideas for what to animate, or even where the career should go? But that's basically where I am these days. Trying to figure out what to do.
Scott
After Castaway Entertainment came to a sad, but gracefull end in 2006, I flopped around until March trying to find work. when at GDC I got an offer and signed up with a start up called Collision Studios, but I would have to relocate to Los Angeles. So by the end of march and a $4000.00 loan I had moved myself near the sleepy comunity of Venice Beach and started work for Collision. Well it didn't work out and I was asked to leave in May, and I spent the balance of 2006 on State Unemployment and sucking down my savings. They hired me back in February of 2007 to work on a Nintendo Wii title: Ultimate Duck Hunter: Hunting and Retrieving Ducks.
The contract I signed was an unavoidable mistake, on paper it was February to May with a payout of 21K (A schedule that even 3do at its worst never was that short to produce a finished game) We did have all the assets of Mid Carolina Media's original game, but not many were usable. The problem with the contract was that the company, and by extension I, would only be paid upon acceptance of the Milestone, which meant Collision had no control over its revenue stream at the time. So as the problems mounted the period between checks became longer and longer. The job was a bit stressful because of this, and finally when the game went to Nintendo of America for approval the turn around would take 2-3 weeks and they would return with a bug report. (Never use Hindu Game testers over seas). Finally in June, the game was "done" and in Nintendo's hands and awaiting approval by Nintendo of Japan and Collision used the end ot the game to release a whole bunch of us out onto the street, keeping all the programmers and newly minted artists from nearby Otis Scjhool of the Arts. The got a new inflow of money to move into new quarters nearer the beach and work on their Movie License Title for "Jumper".
So with eligibility for unemployment gone, I had to get work and I got a job as a parcel messenger in Hollywood, and drastically downsized my life to a small apartment near downtown L.A. (To bad no more E3's at Staples Center..)
But I have been doing a lot of thinking if I even want to be back in the games industry again? I do want.. no.. need a creative job at some point. Honestly, I Can't hack the "Next Generation " though, and that same lack of education and skill at photorealism keeps me from taking any Hollywood jobs. I just don't have the chops for the hair by hair, pore by pore, vein by vein, stitch by stitch content creation that the AAA titles, and Hollywood Special Effects demand,(I also still can't rig well, and just sort of fail at commandline and math related tasks) So I have decided to concentrate more on Animation, which I can do. Even taking time to learn Flash MX for that 2D thing) But I am feeling too jaded and wary to re-enter days of crunch schedules, long hours in the dark, employment instability (especially after eating my savings completely), and age-ism of th games industry to look upon getting into it again with any enthusiasm. But the current jjob isn't payingthe bills either and has NO path of upward mobility and with the price of gas I am actually losing money each month.(ither than a puny wage, the job is kind of fun tho..) I am supplimenting my income somewhat by making High end WW2 Aircraft classic cars and mens hats for Second Life, but that's just a couple of hundred dollars a month, not a living wage by any means.
I have a model that I and a friend built together, trying for something of a Pixar look, and I want to do some Dialogue and acting as well as the usual movement and action moves, but what to do? I have been advised against the the usual "Demo Reel", and make something 2-3 minutes and funny. I dont feel particularly funy though,these days.
I am open to duggestions, but I really dont have any strong ideas for what to animate, or even where the career should go? But that's basically where I am these days. Trying to figure out what to do.
Scott
Replies
Sorry you had to work with the Ultimate Duck Hunter game. That title is cursed. No money can be made from it. I would have warned you if I had known. My contract was also a mistake, and I was never actually paid.
I';ll kind of miss L.A. but... hey I need a beeter job than this
Scott
"hough, and that same lack of education and skill at photorealism keeps me from taking any Hollywood jobs. I just don't have the chops for the hair by hair, pore by pore, vein by vein, stitch by stitch content creation that the AAA titles, and Hollywood Special Effects demand,(I also still can't rig well, and just sort of fail at commandline and math related tasks) So I have decided to concentrate more on Animation, which I can do. Even taking time to learn Flash MX for that 2D thing) But I am feeling too jaded and wary to re-enter days of crunch schedules, long hours in the dark, employment instability"
Its where the industry is headed, i cant speak much since i only have 2 years of industry experience , but its what i see, if you know your stuff and know what is "selling" by all means try to reach it and you wont be in this situation.
good luck !
I think you need to update your website. For rigging try lynda.com for 25 bucks a month and you can look at some rigging tutorials and all the flash and other web video you can handle.
Try and learn the next gen stuff. www.eat3d.com has a nice tutorial might help although it's 49 bucks. I know it costs money but I just got laid off for two weeks which totally screwed me over and ate the little savings I had, got rehired by the same dicks after two weeks to help them do invetory but I might get laid off again. So the question of the day, why did I go back, well if I didn't i would lose my unemployment benefits. I pointed this out because I think I'm in a similar situation as yours. Can't you go teach at a University or college? You seem to have enough experience to be able to get something. Maybe you can get something at Gnomon 3d? Have you thought of doing concept art or environment art?
Go and target companies that do old gen games like for Nintendo ds and PSP.
By the way did you do comic book art for Marvel and Image comics? I think I'm confusing you with someone else, maybe.
I think you should update your site, and see what happens. Good luck.
Alex
Also with the economy in the toilet its going to be harder to find any job let alone a creative one that pays well. I dunno, its going to be a bit of an uphill climb just about any way you go. It's really hard to stay creative after working a 8hr shift but you might want to consider sticking with the regular joe job for a while and just crank things out like you've been doing. It's awesome that you can pull in extra cash from second life, too bad more opportunities like that don't exist.
Johny, you are being a jerk. Learn to know when to kick someone, sheesh...
If you feel that animation is really an avenue to go for, then go for it full force. Use your dayjob as a means to fuel the time you need to make a solid animation reel. Practice, practice, practice and put a quality 2-3 minutes of the best stuff from that practice in the animation reel.
It doesn't hurt to expand your career boundaries beyond California, either (your cost of living will certainly drop). Game companies are spread far and wide through this country, plenty of opportunities! I can understand being emotionally locked to a certain location. It comes with a price, though, of limiting opportunity.
playing the young kids game, might see you stuck on DS titles.
I'm turning into an old fart and the only way I can see staying in the game is to move into managing / creative direction on design projects. Theres script kiddies out there that can code faster than me, and designers willing to take on projects at half my price.
aim for the top section of the food chain, is my advice, if you need it. Forget animation and modelling.
What I guess I'm trying to say, is that why you may not have it in you to be a pro character modeller any more, there are other avenues, if you wish to persue them, where the changes in work flow have been less severe, and in which you have already proved some skill and passion.
I can't say whether you should get back into a creative environment or not - that's a decision you'll have to make from the heart, but I can say that if you chose to do so there are still things you can do quite readily, and these days it actually pays to specialize a little.
Or, as Hawken says, there's always a lower Management position with the aim to climb higher.
Honestly, I Can't hack the "Next Generation " though, and that same lack of education and skill at photorealism keeps me from taking any Hollywood jobs. I just don't have the chops for the hair by hair, pore by pore, vein by vein, stitch by stitch content creation that the AAA titles, and Hollywood Special Effects demand,
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Scott, don't forget that development for handheld and mobile titles is alive and well. 'Next gen' consoles are not the be all and end all. There is plenty of other work out there. Hawken mentioned being 'stuck' on DS titles as If it were a bad thing, but a lot of people enjoy doing that kind of low spec work, and it sounds like you might be one of them?
That said it sounds like you'd rather do animation than modeling, low res or otherwise? If so go for it. Doing something funny for a reel is good, but I don't think it's at all nessesary. You won't be getting hired for your script writing or comedic timing, so I see no reason why you should constrain yourself to making only a "funny" reel. I know people who have gotten animation jobs with lots of different kinds of animation reels. Funny, Dramatic, story, no story, whatever. I think the important part is that the animation is good and shows you know your shit. Concentrate on the technical aspects over the story in my opinion. (For the dialogue bit I know a lot of people who just grab a sound bite from a movie and animate a scene to it.)
Anyways, good luck with it all man. Try not to get down on yourself, something will turn up soon!
Hawken mentioned being 'stuck' on DS titles as If it were a bad thing, but a lot of people enjoy doing that kind of low spec work, and it sounds like you might be one of them?
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(heh, actually I'm currently working on a DS title. oh joy!)
re the the next gen thing i feel for ya as its bit tough. taken me 3 years to get ok at it.
anyway don't give up man, another kitten might die if you do.
perhaps you need to get back to basics, get a feel for what you really enjoy want to do and remember why you got in to games in the first place:)
I am going thorpugh a similar thing and have had the same BS with contracts. life can be painful at times.
as for the original topic - tough situation and one that most in this field could get into at some point indeed. i cannot image you'd find another area in the US that offers more opportunites than california does (being an ass-hat here, never been to the states).
if you feel you still want to do the art thing then i suppose you really need to focus on your strengths and find a field - not neccessarily games - where you can apply them.
good luck!
Scott sorry if you were offended it wasnt what i was aiming for . good luck with it !
Anyways, if you're looking to relocate you should come to Texas. It's very cheap to live here and the pay is awesome. On top of that there is lots of tequila and Shiner beer is really cheap. There are plenty of studios in the Dallas/FW region and Austin, and several others scattered around the state.
I wish you the best of luck man, hang in there! You'll make it!
Not only that, but there will ALWAYS a be a market for casual games. Pop Cap, Big Fish and a few others are huge names in the casual games market. If you can't find any in California, there are plenty in the Seattle area, as well as Dallas.
Other places, such as where I work right now, are other considerations. We're starting to lean towards realtime 3d content for our slot games, and we're nowhere pushing hardcore limits. I'm working on a StarWars game right now which is the most advanced 3d product we've ever made. Even still, we're not using normal maps on everything. What we do use them on, are created generically with the photoshop plugin or CrazyBump. There's always a need for artists.
Very sorry to hear all of your troubles though - it's always hard hearing a fellow artist suffer like that. I wish you the best of luck in everything, Scott.
Like everyone else said, look for a job in a manager or director position.
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Sorry for going OT here, and this is not directed at Scott, but what makes people think that this is a good answer? What makes you believe that someone with years of industry experience would necessarily be a good at managing people or that s/he would even want to do that?
I think a big part of what is wrong with our work environments and work conditions in this industry is that the people in producer/director/manager roles are people that just kind of ended up in that position but may know absolutely zero about how to plan and manage projects as well as manage and motivate people.
Once again, not directed at Scott, for all I know he may be great in this role, I just think that industry people in general need to rethink who we tend to put in the roles of running projects.
A pretty good example of an industry that's just getting started.
Dax That I think was the reason I got hired on to the Wii title. It was not "Next Gen and the polycounts were lower than the PS3/PC, and they didn't need that UED3 soup of shaders to be mixed up. I kind of like the platform. Fun to test. I did a little butit of DS as well, and that wasn't bad, as I tend to enjoy the smaller platforms. You're right about the development going there.
Hawken Management trackhas never been in my make up, that would take leadership and organization skills, bth which I lack, as well as being comfortable about letting the work of others become my responsibility, I just don't have the temperment for management, I think. Teach? maybe, but not schedule and budget, I have horrible math skills.
J_Bradford Oh I am not married to California. Anywhere in the west coast, or the south east would work. They just need to pring for the relocation as I am tapped out financially. North Carolina would be nice. Vegas is a possibility. Anywhere onthe west coast would be nice. North East I am not sure about. YEs I love animation and former bosses and colleagues thought that animation was mybest talent so I am going to try for that, If that isn't it I'll follow Harlequin's advice and ty to work up a portfolio of vehicles.
aesir See the above for the commentary about going "Management track". I lack the organizational skils and temperment for management.
Vig YEah. I hit a wall. I knew there was a problem when I could not do portrature, that and while my human anatomy was strong, I could nto do portrats, and generating normal maps that were subtle was well as detailed was beyond me. surfacing just got more and more complicated, and took more and more performance. No company I ever worked for would pop for the hardware necessary for that sort of performance, so I fell behind. The 2D thing. a lot of the guys I start3ed in the industry with, have transfered their skills to making slot machine graphics in Flash. Similar lack of memrory and similar aesthetic sense as the old Sega Genesis/SNES graphics, just crisper and a few more frames. When I finish up with the Flash tutorials I may end up doing that in Vegas.
Peter_K I'll take a look, but I did comics in the 80's and it was a bit of a grind and I have since slowed down a bit. But I'l see what I can do. Also the problem I had with comics was that it was fun to do if you had a good writer, but I still had to keep a day job.
Johny No worris, I realised it about the industry, though the stylizationof TF1 and Battlefield Heroes, gives me a bit of a boost.
Sage Thanks, but that was one of the questions. Do I want to continue in the industry itself? I like making computer generated art, either static or moving, but I am not sure oif I want to stay in games. The contrast between Castaway Entertainment L.L.C, 9Best company I have ever worked for), and Collision Studios (not) as the next job after really made me think about the industry , the effects on my health, and if I want to continue there, when eeven though the current job doesn't pay well, I am healthier and more active than I have been since high school. I am taking the opportunity to pause, and look at all the options. I may re-enter comics, or graphic novels mperhaps, though the pay, or lack thereof is atrocious. who knows, but thank you.
Thanks guys, you have given me a lot of things to think about. Any other svice will be gratefully accepted.
Scott
Scott
Next Gen is nothing, it's like a 'NEW AND IMPROVED' sticker on the same old dishwasher. Most games throw in normalmaps and shiny stuff for some money shots, but the core and most of the game is still the same, the real difference is usually in the lighting/shading.
Next gen high detail stuff and crazy shaders (which usually aren't so crazy after you've done a few) is only really of interest for FPS or 3rd person games but there's so many type of games and platforms your work and knowledge would be perfect for, and i dont see that changing anytime soon.
If you pay a visit to your local video games store you should notice that most great games while they render nicely thanks to the lighting, are still made with simple assets as always... they throw in more polygons to make the wheels round or the terrain softer and such but that's it.
Here's why it crossed my mind. I just got the proof for my Dad's grave stone, and it's kick ass what they do now. My Dad's online handle was the Red Baron. It was his old C.B. handle alos. So, what I did was give them a picture of a Red Baron replica plane that was in flight. They took that image, and totally transformed it into the Red Baron in battle and filled the left side of the marker with it. It will then be laser etched in. I may post an image later (when the final version is done).
Anyway, it's obvious they have a talented art department (also after asking the funeral home director). I figured that many of you may not think of it for career paths, but should definitely be talented enough for.