A quest for improvement? (Warning long and wordy)
polycounter lvl 17
hey this is something thats flown through my head lately, just wanted to see what others have to say.
After coming back from GDC and speaking to many people from here in real life and such, ive come to notice a few things
you see I worked at a small start up company in south florida, as one of the original employees.The company has had many ups and downs , and after almost a year we have released our first game (Well it recieved its rating finally "E" for everyone) Our game is called "The lost Treasures of Alexndrea" during that year I have learned things from a first hand look in this industry and what its like starting small, and really just being a nobody, we fought long and hard for simple things that many studios in the industry could no less piss out in a week (a sad truth) For so many years I have struggled to get into this career and now that Im in it , I feel as though I am not?
Ok let me explain this a bit better, I was expecting to be working on games like dawn of war, or a halo style game just something that people would recognize and know. But instead I somehow fall into making 2d casual games?
Hinze why I feel in the back of my mind Im still a nobody as far as this industry is concerned(insert small violin music here)
Ok so lets jump a bit ahead, some time passes, the company during its year go's up and down, my place in the company goes from a grunt to big QUICK , I rather not say my position as to not start some quarrel here, But what I will say is after the promotion a while ago, I decided to place more faith and try and work into letting this company come more off the ground....fast froward a bit to GDC, I decided to attend a few seminars and such and I relised the people I view as the high artists and the best in there fields and there age difference compared to me, its almost a shock to really see how relatively young I was compared to the high ups in reality(I hope im not offending anyone at this point, but please bear with me if you are) So I realized that at this point I have ended in such a good position at a young age to really put my self really into retro spect, im barely mid 25 and ive ended up in a position most people in there late 20's early 30's are in. So I figured that now Is a time to really try to become a better manager and such since ive been placed in this kind of roll, reading about how to manage, delegating times etc, really trying to be efficient, but after speaking with a few people ive heard 2 versions of a story as far as there two cents they wanted to toss in
version 1:
"your in a good position , stick it out for a year improve, keep it on a resume, go to a big company a year or so a now , have the experience and such on the paper and your good from there"
Version 2:
"Due to the circumstances of your company and its size and its area (Florida) To get industry veterans would be to un-ethical for a company such as yours, in all honesty your position is nothing more than a dummy position//joke, I suggest to improve your work , focus on your own personal work"
So just so you all understand at this point, I constantly wish to be a artist people want to remember and know, to be referred to as a kolby jukes amongst a art community , but for me to get to that level it feels as though I need to devote all my time into my craft as oppose to my job.
so I feel that honestly at my job right now since were small the quest for improvement feels scare and little. And in all honesty I really dont know how to approach this anymore?
the company might be doing "Great things" as IVe been told, but in all honesty its a big risk, but Ive been told to take my youth and take a risk, worry about the consequences later, but in the back of my head I feel that I need to improve to even make it , to make ends meat I need to push myself a bit harder, to get by.
I dunno, I guess this questions goes more into the reference of those from polycount who have seen me , and known me for a while? Or maybe this feels more like I vent?
In either way, whats the best bet right now for improvement, personal or the job? Take it hard now and let it pay off later , or should I do the vice versa?
Any advice would be appreciated to be honest.(please keep in mind this question is more made for people that have been working in the field for a while.)
After coming back from GDC and speaking to many people from here in real life and such, ive come to notice a few things
you see I worked at a small start up company in south florida, as one of the original employees.The company has had many ups and downs , and after almost a year we have released our first game (Well it recieved its rating finally "E" for everyone) Our game is called "The lost Treasures of Alexndrea" during that year I have learned things from a first hand look in this industry and what its like starting small, and really just being a nobody, we fought long and hard for simple things that many studios in the industry could no less piss out in a week (a sad truth) For so many years I have struggled to get into this career and now that Im in it , I feel as though I am not?
Ok let me explain this a bit better, I was expecting to be working on games like dawn of war, or a halo style game just something that people would recognize and know. But instead I somehow fall into making 2d casual games?
Hinze why I feel in the back of my mind Im still a nobody as far as this industry is concerned(insert small violin music here)
Ok so lets jump a bit ahead, some time passes, the company during its year go's up and down, my place in the company goes from a grunt to big QUICK , I rather not say my position as to not start some quarrel here, But what I will say is after the promotion a while ago, I decided to place more faith and try and work into letting this company come more off the ground....fast froward a bit to GDC, I decided to attend a few seminars and such and I relised the people I view as the high artists and the best in there fields and there age difference compared to me, its almost a shock to really see how relatively young I was compared to the high ups in reality(I hope im not offending anyone at this point, but please bear with me if you are) So I realized that at this point I have ended in such a good position at a young age to really put my self really into retro spect, im barely mid 25 and ive ended up in a position most people in there late 20's early 30's are in. So I figured that now Is a time to really try to become a better manager and such since ive been placed in this kind of roll, reading about how to manage, delegating times etc, really trying to be efficient, but after speaking with a few people ive heard 2 versions of a story as far as there two cents they wanted to toss in
version 1:
"your in a good position , stick it out for a year improve, keep it on a resume, go to a big company a year or so a now , have the experience and such on the paper and your good from there"
Version 2:
"Due to the circumstances of your company and its size and its area (Florida) To get industry veterans would be to un-ethical for a company such as yours, in all honesty your position is nothing more than a dummy position//joke, I suggest to improve your work , focus on your own personal work"
So just so you all understand at this point, I constantly wish to be a artist people want to remember and know, to be referred to as a kolby jukes amongst a art community , but for me to get to that level it feels as though I need to devote all my time into my craft as oppose to my job.
so I feel that honestly at my job right now since were small the quest for improvement feels scare and little. And in all honesty I really dont know how to approach this anymore?
the company might be doing "Great things" as IVe been told, but in all honesty its a big risk, but Ive been told to take my youth and take a risk, worry about the consequences later, but in the back of my head I feel that I need to improve to even make it , to make ends meat I need to push myself a bit harder, to get by.
I dunno, I guess this questions goes more into the reference of those from polycount who have seen me , and known me for a while? Or maybe this feels more like I vent?
In either way, whats the best bet right now for improvement, personal or the job? Take it hard now and let it pay off later , or should I do the vice versa?
Any advice would be appreciated to be honest.(please keep in mind this question is more made for people that have been working in the field for a while.)
Replies
Now, I'm not really in the "Biz", nor do I really want to make that my life's career, I treat CG and game art as a hobby and do freelance work to make money. I only have one soon to be released title under my belt. So I don't know if my opinion is really the one you're looking for.
As an artist, you should always want to improve and hone your skills more, especially if you aspire to be a recognized artist within a certain community. Which is a good thing to drive you, even if it does seem sort of shallow. But generally most artistic endeavors are somewhat shallow. If they weren't, these message boards would probably be pretty empty and galleries would go out of business.
Now, Success and talent is not entirely relative to age, at least the younger you are, the older you get it seems to become more relative. Now you're in a good position, however to be blunt, your work is not really too great for 25, I mean I produced this at 19 (yes, I'm arrogant enough to say that it would probably be considered technically better than the majority of work on your site), but that doesn't mean shit, because this guy here is currently doing work at 18 that technically puts the majority of the stuff on this board to shame (although it can all be argued when style comes into play). I will say the difference between your 2007 and 2008 work does indeed show a good progression. I'm not trying to shit on your confidence here, but you brought it up and felt the need to respond to it.
I would say always keep working on getting better, if that is what you really want, as far as your job goes, keep your current gig for the security until a better one comes your way, that's just common sense.
and neo- technically im 22, I said im NEAR 25, I really didnt want to get into fine details I was just trying to prove a point about age versus experience and all
gavimage , actually PM me some useful info relative about all of this. Seems I wasnt the only one in a situation like this before..
At 22 you still have plenty of time to experiment with positions (that sounds kinky) and jobs. If you have the mindset of not taking life too seriously and you are able to have a social life and experiment with everything (friends, girlfriend, moving around, going out to bars at night, etc) then really IMO you can do whatever you want career wise and never see it as a waste.
If you are a workaholic and you are betting everything on your resume, career, and experience then you should work your ass off on your personal stuff starting NOW and go find yourself a new job.
During my freshman year of college I worked full time as a web designer. During that time I went from being the care free kick ass dude who always went out and had good times to working all the time and trying to improve in my free time. I also lived with my GF and took 16 hours. I was stressed as fuck and I wasn't too happy because of it. It payed off though.
Now I go to college, work as a programmer, and I started my own company with a few other guys all at once. I learned to manage my time, however, and because of it I still go out all the time, I make plenty of time for my GF (who is practically my wife), and I still have time for personal improvement. I will say that the year I spent really working and trying to improve paid off because it gave me an impressive resume that got me many jobs and contacts before I turned 20.
So I guess I'm not really giving you advice as much as I am telling you what happened with me and the options you have. If you want to boost your career and get into the big leagues now, spend all your free time improving your personal art with the help of PCers and start applying EVERYWHERE once you've made some gains. If you're an easy going guy and you're not too worried about getting into the big leagues right now then have fun experimenting and don't stress yourself out.
I have worked on a few sports titles, but never the big glamorous titles I expected.
Looking back i should have targeted the companies that made games I was actually interested in:) ie adventure fantasy stuff.
I would say just stick with it, and take a few years to improve to a really high standard.
Re the age thing I didn't start doing computer stuff until I was 27.
you have no idea how much ive stressed myself out in this year between working pratically 26 hours (yes a day and some time into the next day straight) at my job, just to work on some projects , and by the time im home im so over burnt I dont want to look at a computer I just want to sleep, juggling a GF that actually works with me on this (dosent give me shit about this career and working hard etc)
I hear its a big opportunity all the time from people, but it seems more and more as its spelt out, others have been in this same boat, and it might be easier to just keep the back burner turned on for new leads and posibilities , I did make a few contacts at gdc, I think I might really try to follow (Well bug the hell out of them,since I already did my hellos with them..) Until something comes
I will be posting my reel, but that isnt a "Get me a awesome job" reel I already know that, but I did mention help from polycounters. I will have a update of the video in the next few days or so.
People who are 'clever' get a job based on their qualifications(the past), not on their desire to succeed(the future). They do that because theyre good at it, and THINK they are most likely to be acknowledged for their skills. While in reality they are not clever, because they will get overtaken by people who continually strive to be better than they are.
work hard, learn improve, but dont stop looking over your shoulder is a good way to think of it?
if you make the job your own and kick ass, maybe you'll get somewhere, but if you believe the guy who said it was a joke position then that will probably come true. its best not to listen to negative distractions and head towards the awesome at whatever pace you can muster
Now stfu and go back to work you lazy bum !!
(
ok ok I get it, Gonna continue on as always then
oh off topic I updated the website
so to improve what would you do? quit your current job and go work at walmart stocking toilet tissue while working on your skills in the evenings?
fuck the age thinking.. you'll just end up stressing about 'omg im 22 and havent found my dream job yet!/ohnoes im not making the hal0z!!1!' and producing crappier work and affecting your health..
like i told a friend of mine recently, not everyone has the same fast track in life. some people get lucky, some sacrifice everything to make it, but some people have to take a slower path because their circumstances suck(money, family, health, etc).
you may have to stay where you are another 2 or 3 years before your big break.. that's that much more time in your advanced position that will be on the resume.
in essence:
you are *just* 22, calm the hell down.
http://boards.polycount.net/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=270202&an=0&page=6#Post270202
And less typing, more art plz. You need to practice if you want that nice corner office with all the ladies under your desk, and a new gold plated Lambo. Otherwise, feel lucky you've got your current job. Some people are still trying to get there. Don't expect anything more to be handed to you.
If I read correctly, you have two main goals, one artistic and one business. In the way of shipping a big AAA title, you'll have to work at a big company. To be a great artist you need to practice and it helps to surround yourself with other great artists. Again, a big company can be the place for this. I've been a big fish in a small pond a few times. This can be good, but if you want to grow you're going to have to swim to deeper waters.
To better explain my words, I'll use direct experience since you specifically asked for people working in the field for a while. I spent around five years at a small company once, and worked my way up to lead artist. It was great getting the title and all, but artistically I had no one to push me. There is simply no competition at the top of the heap. I went on to a larger company which had a lot of talent and a lot of inspiration. They couldn't keep it together and shut down. My next project allowed me to be a lead again, but in a small company. My skills diminished. I simply wasn't challenged artistically, more so managerially. Knowing this, I took a world art position at Mythic knowing I'd be once again challenged artistically and surrounding by incredibly talented people. Not only that, but we're working on a huge name title. So it took me about 11 years to reach what I think your goals are. The point of my story? I should have bit the bullet and stepped into a larger, big name company earlier. I've learned more here in the last two years than I learned in the previous four.
I guess Im just going to continue to work and improve, I appreciate the advice everyone. I guess I was going about this the wrong way then huh?
also I hope no one on here got rubbed the wrong way I wasnt trying to make a piss game comparison to anyone or anything like that.
Let me ask you, what are you doing to improve?
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well a few things actually for one im drawing 2d alot more now,I started doing low poly work at work (Unforatently I cant post on here) to improve my basic human forms, I ordered the freedom of teach figuring and should be recieving it soon, and I will hopefully will be moving out of the folks place and getting a place with a buddy of mine so I can be pushed to do more artwork , on my free time.
Its a bit rough though ,long work days make wanting to do anything else a bit meh lately, but I like to be pushed more.
Im really trying to get better at traditional work more than digital at this point since I suffer, and well johny says I suffer at everything so I think Im trying to work from the ground up?
I've been working here for over a year and a half, shipped one title (Spyro the Dragon: The Eternal Night), and I have really stepped up and doing things beyond my role and my scope because I'm willing to learn the stuff and also I want to prove it to myself and my peers that I'm capable of doing these things.
I barely get to do much art at the moment, I'm a character artist on my current project though I've only built 2.5 characters in the past 8 months.
I've pretty much had to do a whole lot of R&D on our engine, implement lighting solutions (with the coders), create and modify the art pipeline, technical documentation, some style guide stuff, I've even had to conduct a few meetings. Doesn't sound like the role of a character artist? But I still work on characters in my own time, during down time at work, during lunch breaks, because I enjoy spending my spare time creating game art.
If you don't feel motivated to make art after work, then ask yourself, do you really enjoy it? Or are you only working in the games industry to say you work in the games industry? To be some well known game art superstar (the next Kolby Jukes)? If so, then you're in the wrong industry.
-caseyjones
and neo- technically im 22, I said im NEAR 25, I really didnt want to get into fine details I was just trying to prove a point about age versus experience and all
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Sorry about that, I didn't go to sleep at all that night (because of working ,Go figure
Though studying traditional art is a great idea, both painting and sculpture can do great things for your ability. And I've noticed those who've studied solely digital art are okay at traditional art, but those who've studied tradtional art are great at digital art. I know plenty of sculptors who have picked up ZB ,learned it in a snap and produced some amazing work.
stop looking for a list of instructions on how to get ahead, you don't need sign-off on anything like that from anyone here. Post some art and get crits and all that, it's all helpful ... but when it comes down to it, just sit down and think your situation over for yourself - that way you can come to some clear, focussed conclusions without having to reach for the kleenex. What the hell do think people did before the internet?
bloody computers. They'll be the death of this society, mark my ruddy words, eeeehh. And thats swearing.
I remember at uni this girl in the year above me ended up in tears because the tutor didn't like her final project.
I told her that she does n't need to look for approval from anyone because In the real world no one gives a fuck. Then she started crying again:)
Seriously though she said just didn't have the self confidence 'not' to ask for that approval.
I was luck in that the tutors hated me from day one so I had to do my own thing anyway and this has not really left me since.
In the end I work really for a very small small company and Im unsure if putting my all into a place like this is worth it at this point/time of my life.
For the most part Ive already gathered my answer, I will be sticking around there giving it what I can but on my off time starting new things , but im waiting until I move into a new place to really do that (Im in the moving process right now)
I already have gotten my 2 cents from everyone, thank you, lets all end it here please