DWIII - 3D - bilbana - Amphorea

bilbana

The Prince of the sea and the Orphan set on the great journey to find the source of the mechanical menace and flood it with the help of the magic amphora to stop this new threat.


Hello guys, I`m not new to this forum but I`m not a great poster so you have probably not seen me before. Anyway this is my contribution for Dominance War. It will be an honor competing for Polycount, the best forum in my opinion since I first got into this 3d game art thingy way back in the quake days.

As you might guess from the teaser thumb I`m going for a bit brighter entry. Mostly to set it apart from all the dark demon knights i guess. Not that I see anything wrong in demon knights mind you, I just feel like I`ll have more of a shot at this making something else.

Anyway, feel free to comment.

rasmus

Is that... Michael Ironside?

bilbana

Are you referring to the avatar or the lizard creature?
In whichever case you are right. The avatar is a young Micheal Ironside and the lizard is him now. I make a point of always designing characters and creatures around Micheal Ironside

rasmus

He's man and beast all rolled up into one.

Plymer, vimplar and magic livboj-carrying 5-year old Michaels all in the same concept - my eyes are peeled.

bilbana

First draft. Need more ideas for making them look more like they live at sea/island world.
Story goes something like this maybe, will probably change.

The girl was dumped by her mother as a baby and taken by the river to the sea. There the prince of sea found her. She grew up with the sea people and went on new adventures with the prince every day. Oh joy and happy days. One day they found the magic amphora and the girl learned how to master its great magic. Within it lies the power to summon the seas of the worlds at will an either drown your foes or crush them with giant waves, but also different abilities like traveling great distances by riding the wave etc.
Now as the slightly peculiar champions of this world she and the prince was selected to fight the machines and of course anyone getting in their way, but mostly to have fun and embark on a new adventure for so are the lifes of the orphan and the prince of sea..
man, the image keeps disappearing after a while, lets see if it stays now.

bilbana

Had some freelance work to tend to so had no time for the war recently. Anyway the time apart made me rethink the lizard armor situation. I decided that I`ll probably ditch it in favor of BA gold necklaces.
It makes him less warrior like and more sea people/nature like which is what I want. I also figured that it`s his incentive for going on adventures, to find the ultimate sunken treasure to please his gold fetish. Also not sure he needs a weapon. Added ears and tried a different color, will have more variation in the final version. No real design on his gold yet but I think it works much better. Maybe I`m just sick of armor in general.

bilbana

Here are some zbrush wips as well.
Not much yet and obviously a lot of it is not final.
Lizard still has his old basic armor on, looks sort of like a cow, havn`t decided if I like it yet. Girl hair is placeholder etc..
Hope I`ll have time the following weeks or I`m doomed.

sub_roland

great starts. like where the hands and feet are going on the lizard but you might want to make the tail a bit longer. feels like, from the the concept, it would have more length, but close

rasmus

Looking good! Especially hands and feet, yeah. Agree with previous speaker Something cowy about the head, yup. Neckfolds are a bit odd. Something about the curve of the spine seems off, not very harmonious. Concept-wise I think he's definitely more regal-looking with a cane or rod-thing, but I'm not sure he needs the armor if he doesn't have a weapon... I like the chain-stuff in the concept. Tail could be longer or ideally curved like the concept. Like the hair on the boy actually

Nog av mig! Puss,

bilbana

Thanks for the critique guys.
I see what you mean wit the tail. Will make it longer when it`s time to model it.
Have some new wips, changed the stance etc, small changes everywhere. He is now a bit more conventional dinosaur bodied.
Made him a bit more capable of supporting his weight. Stronger legs etc. Don`t want too much of that though, need to make him look more sealiving like I think.

bilbana

The girl has got a wip body now. Been staring for too long at it today to notice any odd looking proportions.
The dress is a placeholder.

bilbana

quick paintover showing the design on the girl.

rasmus

looks good, keep it up.

Aldo

Looks really good, I like that it has a different feel than most dominance wars characters.

bilbana

Thanks, current progress.A lot is still wip.

rasmus

Nice! Great work on the plumes, and the details on the emblems look really cool. Is this the color scheme, or just viewport colours? With tone variations in the skin blue might actually work. Keeps it up yo, I have nothing to crit

bilbana

Ok, this is as far as i`ll push the hipoly version of the lizard. I feel confident enough on the design to get on with the lowpoly and texturing from now on. Need to get on with things if I`m gonna make it so...Will add small buckles and chains to hold the gold armor together and stuff. And add carvings on the plain surfaces of the gold on the back and belt.
I`m seriously considering blue as the final color, with variations of course. Also the accessories will not be all gold.
If you have any critique now is the time

[Edit] Oh, and I realize the hair?..thingies that comes out of the crown looks like some cyborg fluid pipes, that is not the intention. Will probably look more crown accessory like when not textured like gold. If not, I`ll do some alpha plumes or something else...
And yes, this is one sketchy, sloppy hipoly I know.

rollin

this is cool.. love these waves !!

kakikukeko

very nice! the color sheme is good too

kary

No worries on the plumes, he's got a good tribal feel that keeps it coming across as crown decoration. The lizard sculpt is looking cool; hands and feet look like they could be more clearly defined, but the costume and overall form are very engaging.

On the girl it would really help to see a front/side/back view as well as the 3/4. The chin seems a little large, the nose a bit sharp, and the inner ankle a bit thin and low. There a few points of anatomy that you might want to push to sell the age: overall proportions (6.5 heads high instead of 7.5), small / softly defined ears and nose, large eyes for the face (which you're already doing). She does read as a child, those are just some things you could push if you wanted.

rasmus

I read the "cyborg tubes" as feelers on a lobster or something, which probably isn't appropriate either Are they even neccessary? It might be plenty with just the helmet sidefins. I know you're still to get to the girl, but apart from Kary's points the neck and armpit area look a bit undefined in a plain subdivided way, the hands a bit too rough, and feet maybe a bit long and flat - what do you think?

bilbana

Thanks for the critique.
Here is the hi poly girl. Made lots of small changes that you guys suggested, thanks for all the input. Ditched the typical roman foot ware as I felt that had been done before and opted for flip flop sandals as it brings a more playful aspect that I originally wanted a lot of but subconsciously strayed from. I also like the naked legs more.
The amphora will probably be bigger in the final version to emphasize that she is small.
Have the swim goggles left to do, will not make a highpoly version of those as they will be really small.
I do wonder how much the small changes and detail will matter in the end as she will be fairly lowpoly and share the texture with the lizard. I guess I just have to try it to know.

The lizard hands/feet.
Can`t hide anything from you guys can I..
Yeah definitely a weak area but since you spotted it I did some work on them. Hope it will show in the normal mapped version coming up sometime this following week.
Time is running out fast and I need to get moving if I`m going to make it.

rasmus

Looks good, but my crits about the armpits, neck and hands remain. I think the round top of the arm (axlarna) needs to pop out more, forward, it's not there at all. It's like the arm is merged with the chest too much, hence my complaints about pits/shoulders. Little girls are skinny and don't have any bulk there. Collarbones could protrude a bit too, I think, and maybe also a vertebrae or two at the base of her neck. I think it'd really put the finishing touches there.

And there's something mean in her face, but then again she's supposed to kick ass and chew bubblegum, eh?

Ok, I'm off to my own shit now, never mind me

bilbana

I see what you mean. I did choose not to do the collarbones etc because I wanted her to be smooth rather that realistic.
But then there are parts that are a bit bony I know, not very consistent..Need to decide how I want it and go for that look all over I guess.
The hands are too rough yes, but right now I feel I need to do the lowpoly and try out the normal maps to see how it works out before I do more tweaks in the hipoly though.
Time is starting to be a factor now.

bilbana

Here we have the wip lopoly normal mapped version. At the disco!!
Was quite a task to fit both guys in at 9000.
What you see here is around 8800 polys. Need to do the girls hair and some other small stuff. But I think I`ll make it.

rasmus

Looks great! Higher res? Wires? Annoying commentary?

bilbana

Ok, so here is the wire for public trashing.
I have no comments besides that I need to do the girls hair first so that I know how many polys I can use on the unfinished parts, and how many I need to shave of from the current model to fit them in.
Oh and the back need some work, I`ll post it when I feel ready to do so.

rasmus

Looks great

rollin

like it!

SonofRock

Good stuff man, only 12 more days left!

Rick Stirling

It's looking great!

If you need to same polygons, you could probably do more with alpha:

- Some of the creatures back spines. Also, the last few spines could have polygons stripped from them
- the creatures ear spine things
- REALLY ANAL: The creates hand finger webbing

bilbana

Thanks guys,
Texture update: The orphan and the prince at the (3dsmax standard texture) beach!
Don`t worry this has nothing to do with the final podie.
Wip color and normal texture.
No spec, glossiness textures or anything fancy like that yet.
If anyone have a link to a nice tutorial about making short curly hair I`m all ears.
And does anyone know if you can flip the color coordinates of a rendered piece of normal map?
The chains are currently not rendering correctly because I used a different coordinates for those.
I sure there is, I haven`t even checked myself yet because I`m lazy.

Sonofrock: yeah tell me about it. But I feel like I can make it.
Rick: Yeah, deleted some polys from the small tail thingies.

I`m currently at about 9100 polys but I`m confident I`ll be able to shave some more of before final submission. Need to add some more small details as well. Ditched the cyborg tubes on the crown cause they`ll eat polys, and they were not that hot to start with...

rasmus

Do you mean flipping the channels, as in making "up" become "down"? Go into the channel you need to invert (usually green), and, er, invert it

I'd say the girls dress (and girl in general) looks very good already, apart from that the lizard colourscheme is really garish, the blues are too saturated and I doubt the yellow, golden skin works very well... the mouth area looks good though. Try a few colourscheme-paintovers?

bilbana

Garish was what I was going for. Maybe I overdid it. I wanted the girl to be really pure and clean and the lizard the extreme opposite, cluttered and dirty and colorful. I`ll try some different schemes.
Oh and inverting the green channel should do it. Thanks! That makes total sense now that you spell it out for me.

rasmus

No prob.

To be more specific, what I really don't like is how your dark colours also burn into the rest - it looks like a blending mode, not very natural. I said that before too about your biker, remember? Saturation is fine, but usually shadowy areas should be the least saturated, with the highest saturation in the midtones and a little less in the hilite-areas, I think.

bilbana

Rasmus: Got ya. When doing the first wips for this and the biker I use one quite yellow main light and highly saturated ambient to get the warm cozy atmosphere that I know I`ll want in the end. Quick and dirty I know and I`ll work more on the lighting for this one.
Thanks for the critique, it`s nice to know what other people find is poking them in the eye when looking at your work. That way you can get your fixing priorities straight.

Now on to the update.
Tried another scheme. Tell me what you hate and what you would like!
Still no nothing in terms of spec,gloss maps.
Stripped polys and added some stuff. No more pieces of gold hanging in the air etc. The girl`s got teeth, some buckles fixed and so on...
Now at 8999 polys!
Did 2 rigs for these guys as well, will try to pose them for the next update.
And I really have to fix those lizard feet, looks awful.

bilbana

Moved them from the beach (more like desert) and in to the cave? where they first discovered the long lost magic amphora of Nautania.
Brimming with excitement the orphan took hold of the cork and soon after found out that opening the Amphora of Nautania in a cave is a bad idea.

Added teeth and mouth to lizard.
Rigged the characters, obviously. Basic wip.
Added geometry for panty shot if required. I live in Japan so you never know when you need to crank out the panty shots. It`s probably against the law not to prepare your models for it so better safe than sorry(finding myself explaining waay too much why I spent those 15 min looking up her skirt).
What else?...Filled some holes in the geometry and continued stripping "unnecessary" polys.
Next step is to improve textures and add the spec, spec color, gloss, refl, glow maps. Man thats a lot of maps..

rasmus

HAHAHA! Panties... high time to leave

The posed render really doesn't do you any favours, with the stark lighting and choppy tail, but what the hell :P I'd say kill your podium until you've got the real one, and make that a huge wave - no more standard textures!

The other render is much better, the girl looks good and the lizard is a lot better. Bad stuff: Hands look lumpy, you might wanna pull some verts to make the webbed stuff thinner. Feet look like something growing off the shady side of a tree Amphora is wip I know, but what's up with the motif there? Looks out of place and a bit halloween. No normalmapped patterns for the bracelets btw? Not yet maybe? The purple strips are very saturated, which is cool, but they might need a faint gradient for some large variation to bring them out. The overall colourscheme of the lizard is much better, but still "burns" a bit, and the new green makes it look a bit too much like a grass/ground texture I think... Maybe just desaturate the grassy-greens, to keep it on a blue side of green, not yellow? Or keep experimenting Also, what's up with the texture-stretching on his thighs? It's very in-your-face. ..

Ok, that's it for today's juicy batch of bitching.

bilbana

I`m tired now....Please Comment!


Rasmus: So you`d rather have her without panties, pervert!
The thigh texture stretching is fixed, came from the highpoly baking apparently. Yup about the pose, I was bored with the usual one.

Depending on how much time I have left and how badly I want to go drinking in the park tomorrow I might add some stuff for the podium and do some small fixes.
Noticed now that the tail seems a bit low poly in the rear view. Will fix.

Davision3D

They look nicely but not mean!
Great work on the details!

bilbana

Yeah well, mean-looking is over rated.
Here are the 5 sheets I submitted.
Good luck to all of you who finished in time!
It was great fun to enter and I learned a lot.

Winning pose


Beauty shot


Construction shot


Texture sheet


Concept sheet

rasmus

Looks good! I like the beach

Levus

Looking really nice, but the specular color map shoud be used in this model.
Reptile skin need it absolutely!
Good job generally!

bilbana

Thanks!
About the spec color. I have no prior experience of that and as time was running out I felt like I was better off not straying into that extra dimension of tweaking at this particular time as I have seen people use it just because you are "supposed to" and in my opinion made the end result suffer. It`s not like your piece will automatically look better. If you don`t know what you are doing it can actually look extremely tacky.
But I will definitely read up on it and experiment on the next thing I do.

adam

Just a reminder to submit a picture of your character to be included in the Polycount DWIII poster:
http://boards.polycount.net/announcement.php?f=41

rasmus

Yeah, spec color can be tricky and is overrated in most cases, I think. Haven't really seen that many tutorials on the basics of it, but it totally depends on what you're creating - not everything looks better with it. Metallic surfaces, skin, blood, translucent things, stuff like that needs it, but in the end I think it's a bit of a quick and dirty to get around the limitations of plasticky Blinn-shaders and other current limitations too... Experimenting is key, I'm pretty new to it too. I do remeber this tut though, I think it had some interesting stuff in it even if it's long and mostly Quake4-specific: http://www.iddevnet.com/quake4/ArtReference_CreatingModels#head-4152af2ebdcdf51e21eaf84fd7ea3f511a7a1fab

bilbana

Adam, thanks for the reminder! I have now submitted.
Rasmus, Yup I read that one, but if I remember correctly it doesn't go that deep on explaining the actual color spec. If anyone have more in depth information with good examples showing different color specs in reality and how to get that effect in-game I would really appreciate it:poly106:.
In the meantime I`ll do tests myself.
The real problem for me though is that I can`t see the effects in the max viewport in real-time. My graphics card is a radeon x1950, is it supposed to work? Wrong settings somewhere?
I`m sure I could get it to work in xnormal but that only supports textures up to 1024. Above that and my model ends up pitch black.