It makes me wonder if there really is No Country for Old Men in the world of games. More and more I find myself face to face with semi-talented individuals who are holding their hands out for some kind of payment instead of making something amazing just for the love of the game. It seems to be consuming our youth with delusions of grandeur; their ideals tainted by the jaded veterans who tell them that there is no reward in free labor.
Maybe I'm just getting older myself but it just seems like people aren't motivated to make something different anymore. Where are all these people that claim themselves to be "Indies"? Everyone is content with sculpting metal crates and exploding barrels and clocking out to go vegetate in front of a TV until they have to repeat the process tomorrow. Am I the only person that finds this so very very wrong? Every minute is a moment in time you will never get back and that is how you want to be remembered?
TRUST ME, I know that it's hard work to create concepts, make a model, paint a texture, or animate a character. I have nothing but respect for the artistic craft; but it's not exactly easy to write an entire next-gen 3D engine and tools pipeline either but I made the time (for free) to make that happen. It's important that we look at both ends of that struggle and not just ourselves.
It is only through collaboration that independent development will get anywhere but it takes some dedication; the meek need-not apply but the reward is far greater than the time spent watching Seinfeld re-runs; that I could surely promise you.
Life isn't always about the payout; it's about the journey and the skills that you developed (or improved) along the way. I have risen several pay-grades in my career from the free work I've done outside of the clock.
If this direction of "pay me to be innovative" continues, I'm afraid to see where this will all end in years from today.
You want a free art resource? Then show people sometning worth spending their time on. Right now all you've got is a few craptacular screenshots and a 30$ normal map generator that has less feature and functionality then most free generators. ..and what's with the bullshit on the page..you say you have people that have worked in games and film...but you dont mention any games or films they worked on...
Yeah, you see a great deal of the regulars at this message board are already employed, and they're not going to work on game art for someone else in their free time for free.Especially when they can work on something of their own or go out and enjoy themselves. I mean, it's just the way the cookie crumbles I suppose, sorry.
These aren't insults fella's. I'm simply making a statement.
If you are; like myself, the kind of person who is out there doing more with your life and your time, great! If you are lucky enough to make a living doing something other than the norm, even better! If you are contributing to a better cause instead of searching for the all mighty dollar, awesome!
If you are doing nothing but looking out for number one; you are part of the problem i'm talking about. If this post angers you; then you need to read it again and look beyond yourself. It wasn't intended to flame "all artists". It was intended to make you think about the work involved outside of your world.
I probably mis-titled this post; as it really should have been No Country for Old Game Developers . I suppose I'm an idealist and wish there was more of an "open source" frame of mind for artists much like there is for programmers. Amazing things like Linux would have never happened without that way of thinking. Without Linux there would never have been OSX on Macs. Without open source code there never would have been sites like Source Forge, or revision control software like Subversion, CVS, which means Perforce would have been much less a tool that it is today. Without open source there may have never been THE INTERNET. The code that runs this forum is based on open source. I just don't understand why there is this nature to horde artistic talent and not use it always if you have it. Why is there no "open source" for artists?
[ QUOTE ]
What a load of Bullshit. You want a free art resource?
[/ QUOTE ]
You mean kind of like that free FireFox you may be using right now? or the virus checker you may have, or the freeware/shareware/trialware tools like WinZip, or Free Codecs like DivX, and X-vid that you may have on your machine?
I'm just making a point; there's a lot of free code out there; but the art community just seems more elitist about their content. I'll admit that the perception of code has been cheapened by the open source movement but without it we would still be dialing into BBS's and faxing our emails to each other .
Think about it; wouldn't you have loved to play with the Balrog rig from LotR movie and expand from it. Or maybe see how the latest Transformers were modeled. Not just view some video or see some talk about it; but actually spin it around in Maya break it down. Believe it or not but there is a science to fine art and I think that we would have more refined talent in the industry if there was an open source movement in art.
You have to abandon the thought of "someone just wants my stuff" because that becomes less true when everyone is contributing. It's a self-governing system because any person or company that does not give you proper credit would be called out on it instantly by the community. Anyhow; it's just my point of view but I'm just saying that you should think about that the next time you download some free application, codec, utility, plugin, whatever. That stuff exists because of people who aren't afraid of being cheated.
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah...You know somehow people that don't actually make art tend to say that sometimes, I wonder why...
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know if you are just being sarcastic or honestly thinking out loud but I can only assume you are siding with the other guys. It's funny though; because it's a lot like tasting sushi for the first time. Most people who have tried it think it's awesome and then there's the people who never have tried it and never will just because it "looks gross".
Anyone who is a part of the whole open source thing "gets it". They see the benefits. Everyone else makes comments like the one's you're reading in this thread. I suppose the shoe would be on the other foot if art had been first to open source.
I truly tip my hat to guys like http://www.turbosquid.com/ . I think that they may have something; maybe the closest thing to the "open source" frame of mind for now. The argument can certainly be made that the FREE content is not AAA but it's still in it's infant years...
[edit.. added]
I should add that I could have used sites like that to just "steal free art" as you may be thinking but I was holding the contest as an opportunity to do something different or do something more than just making yet-another-model and posting yet-another-render on your website. Hell; it was a space ship contest! We're not exactly talking rocket science here (no pun intended). It was supposed to be fun, not some devilish scheme that calls for a "mwhahaha" at the end .
Honestly I would move this topic to the General Discussion now, as I do see it being as a viable topic, however not for the request forums. You'd probably get better input on the matter there as well.
I agree but I don't think I can, that might be a moderator thing unless I don't know how to use the forum. I'm genuinely curious if there are others that may agree with me. It's a hard idea to swallow because there is no direct relationship of "work = $" when you talk open source, it's often a round-about way to turning it into revenue.
Asking an artist to produce work open source is like asking a plumber to fix your sink for free, or an architect to plan your house for free. We trade in assets, not information -- it's natural that there's not a big open source movement for our actual content. Programming is open source for the sake of advancement and learning -- it doesn't really help you learn or advance to use our models in your game engine, it just costs us time and effort.
When it comes to the advancement of the craft, there are a ton of tutorials, resources, and SDKs out there. Free education that fills the same role of open source programming. It takes a really shallow understanding of what game artists actually do to call us selfish and greedy.
how about this. i'm an artist and i have an idea that i want made into a game. i would like you to spend all your time doing code for MY game idea. i'm not going to pay you or anything.. but you know.. its for the good of the game. my game.. the one thats not your game. now, think twice before you refuse to work on my game. because i may take that as a sign of the end of all that is good in life. and raise a big stink on some forums because you was not interested in working in your free time to make my game.
This is asuming you are actualy a coder. Or anyother talent used to make a game.
so how about it, i'll send you my game doc and you can do all the code for it and i'll make the models.
It will be under my company name. "fake games inc." you'll get some credits somewhere near the end. if you follow my directions well.. you know. in my game. and if we find a publisher you may even make a few dollars?
Indy games are getting made, we even have a few people on these forums that are making them. I posted a bunch of links but I took too long to post and my form was invalidated but if you really think Indy game making is dead you are really out of touch with the indy scene.
I don't get your "No Country for Old Men" comment, it's a best selling novel turned into a movie by the Coen Brothers.
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Justin_Meisse: I don't get your "No Country for Old Men" comment.
[/ QUOTE ]
My point was simply that I recall a time when game development was different. It was more about that garage game culture and less about making it big or seeing your name on the screen. You are correct Justin, perhaps my time in the commercial game industry has pulled me further from the indie scene; hard to say.
[ QUOTE ]
Rhinokey: i would like you to spend all your time doing code for MY game idea.
[/ QUOTE ] Well honestly Rhino, I'd be open to listening if you weren't being so sarcastic. Of course I'd like for you to make content for MY game because I'm the one asking. If you had asked me about YOUR game then I would look it over and think about it. I wouldn't just shoot it down and make snide remarks because I think "he just wants my code, man!". But that's just me.
[ QUOTE ]
SupRore: We trade in assets, not information. ... It takes a really shallow understanding of what game artists actually do to call us selfish and greedy.
[/ QUOTE ] SupRore, other than that last comment I appreciate your honest assessment. I never called anyone selfish or greedy though. I'm simply saying that there is a definite gap in how programmers share information vs how artists do. I understand completely where you are coming from and it's a solid argument for keeping assets closed. I'm genuinely curious; would you consider it, "a lesson learned" if you watched a tutorial on how to do __________ but your asset came out looking completely different than the tutorial? Would you be happy just knowing which buttons to push and what edges to extrude even if the model turned out differently?
Still though, sharing code is not like sharing information. I could write a whitepaper on the general ideas and show formulas and calculations on how to get something to work in code without ever handing out a line of C++, C#, Java or whatever. I would argue that "code" is a programmers asset and his thesis papers and whitepapers are his equvalent of a video tutorial for an artist. It's a roadmap that may lead to different solutions but the fundamentals are the same.
Ah that's very cool of tom to open up his content (if I read that right). I've seen his work before and looks amazing. Maybe you are right Justin you can't expect everything to be important to everyone. Art and code certainly are different and I thought I might open a few eyes to the other side of the coin but maybe that was my first mistake. Oh well, we can't change the world; just ourselves. This will likely be my last post in this thread so it can rest in peace.
No hard feelings peeps, it was a debate not an attack. In the words of Ron Burgandy, "agree to disagree" .
bottom line, no one gave a rats ass about working on your game for free and you got upset and made a scene. now you can either suck it up. get something together to show how awesome your idea is. a couple lines of text that summed up says DJ=Cool + ALiens=cool = my games going to be super awesome. MAKE IT FOR ME. you have to make people interested in your junk. i've got a ton of ideas i think would make sweet games. but i know that just as a line of text no one would help. because honestly everyone has ideas.
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bottom line, no one gave a rats ass about working on your game for free and you got upset and made a scene.
[/ QUOTE ]
Argh I'm trying to step out of the conversation so you can talk amongst yourselves. Rhino you don't know me so it's understandable how you might think that but you couldn't be further from the truth. You see, I've been passionate about garage development since my first "hello world", and I've felt strongly about open art since I learned about open source. My chain of thoughts that lead to me writing about it here are no more connected than the smell of popcorn reminding you of your favorite movie. I'm not upset (or wasn't) but sometimes you need strong words to get a head to turn every now and then and maybe even get one or two people to listen and think about it. Anyhow, feel free to keep the thread alive, I'd love to see someone agree with me but being a coder in a sea of artists sure makes me the goldfish in the shark tank.
Also, I should note that the contest was fairly low tech and amateur on purpose to attract students as well. If some professional artists was interested in setting up a profit share instead of just contributing then I'd be open to that, but I guess it's easier to just call me names
Replies
-caseyjones
Maybe I'm just getting older myself but it just seems like people aren't motivated to make something different anymore. Where are all these people that claim themselves to be "Indies"? Everyone is content with sculpting metal crates and exploding barrels and clocking out to go vegetate in front of a TV until they have to repeat the process tomorrow. Am I the only person that finds this so very very wrong? Every minute is a moment in time you will never get back and that is how you want to be remembered?
TRUST ME, I know that it's hard work to create concepts, make a model, paint a texture, or animate a character. I have nothing but respect for the artistic craft; but it's not exactly easy to write an entire next-gen 3D engine and tools pipeline either but I made the time (for free) to make that happen. It's important that we look at both ends of that struggle and not just ourselves.
It is only through collaboration that independent development will get anywhere but it takes some dedication; the meek need-not apply but the reward is far greater than the time spent watching Seinfeld re-runs; that I could surely promise you.
Life isn't always about the payout; it's about the journey and the skills that you developed (or improved) along the way. I have risen several pay-grades in my career from the free work I've done outside of the clock.
If this direction of "pay me to be innovative" continues, I'm afraid to see where this will all end in years from today.
You want a free art resource? Then show people sometning worth spending their time on. Right now all you've got is a few craptacular screenshots and a 30$ normal map generator that has less feature and functionality then most free generators. ..and what's with the bullshit on the page..you say you have people that have worked in games and film...but you dont mention any games or films they worked on...
By the way, indie studios PAY their employees.
Anyway, here's the skinny-
Look at this:
http://boards.polycount.net/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=228712&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1
Yeah, you see a great deal of the regulars at this message board are already employed, and they're not going to work on game art for someone else in their free time for free.Especially when they can work on something of their own or go out and enjoy themselves. I mean, it's just the way the cookie crumbles I suppose, sorry.
If you are; like myself, the kind of person who is out there doing more with your life and your time, great! If you are lucky enough to make a living doing something other than the norm, even better! If you are contributing to a better cause instead of searching for the all mighty dollar, awesome!
If you are doing nothing but looking out for number one; you are part of the problem i'm talking about. If this post angers you; then you need to read it again and look beyond yourself. It wasn't intended to flame "all artists". It was intended to make you think about the work involved outside of your world.
I probably mis-titled this post; as it really should have been No Country for Old Game Developers
What a load of Bullshit. You want a free art resource?
[/ QUOTE ]
You mean kind of like that free FireFox you may be using right now? or the virus checker you may have, or the freeware/shareware/trialware tools like WinZip, or Free Codecs like DivX, and X-vid that you may have on your machine?
I'm just making a point; there's a lot of free code out there; but the art community just seems more elitist about their content. I'll admit that the perception of code has been cheapened by the open source movement but without it we would still be dialing into BBS's and faxing our emails to each other
Think about it; wouldn't you have loved to play with the Balrog rig from LotR movie and expand from it. Or maybe see how the latest Transformers were modeled. Not just view some video or see some talk about it; but actually spin it around in Maya break it down. Believe it or not but there is a science to fine art and I think that we would have more refined talent in the industry if there was an open source movement in art.
You have to abandon the thought of "someone just wants my stuff" because that becomes less true when everyone is contributing. It's a self-governing system because any person or company that does not give you proper credit would be called out on it instantly by the community. Anyhow; it's just my point of view but I'm just saying that you should think about that the next time you download some free application, codec, utility, plugin, whatever. That stuff exists because of people who aren't afraid of being cheated.
Yeah...You know somehow people that don't actually make art tend to say that sometimes, I wonder why...
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know if you are just being sarcastic or honestly thinking out loud but I can only assume you are siding with the other guys. It's funny though; because it's a lot like tasting sushi for the first time. Most people who have tried it think it's awesome and then there's the people who never have tried it and never will just because it "looks gross".
Anyone who is a part of the whole open source thing "gets it". They see the benefits. Everyone else makes comments like the one's you're reading in this thread. I suppose the shoe would be on the other foot if art had been first to open source.
I truly tip my hat to guys like http://www.turbosquid.com/ . I think that they may have something; maybe the closest thing to the "open source" frame of mind for now. The argument can certainly be made that the FREE content is not AAA but it's still in it's infant years...
[edit.. added]
I should add that I could have used sites like that to just "steal free art" as you may be thinking but I was holding the contest as an opportunity to do something different or do something more than just making yet-another-model and posting yet-another-render on your website. Hell; it was a space ship contest! We're not exactly talking rocket science here (no pun intended). It was supposed to be fun, not some devilish scheme that calls for a "mwhahaha" at the end .
When it comes to the advancement of the craft, there are a ton of tutorials, resources, and SDKs out there. Free education that fills the same role of open source programming. It takes a really shallow understanding of what game artists actually do to call us selfish and greedy.
This is asuming you are actualy a coder. Or anyother talent used to make a game.
so how about it, i'll send you my game doc and you can do all the code for it and i'll make the models.
It will be under my company name. "fake games inc." you'll get some credits somewhere near the end. if you follow my directions well.. you know. in my game. and if we find a publisher you may even make a few dollars?
does this sound good to you?
Indy games are getting made, we even have a few people on these forums that are making them. I posted a bunch of links but I took too long to post and my form was invalidated but if you really think Indy game making is dead you are really out of touch with the indy scene.
I don't get your "No Country for Old Men" comment, it's a best selling novel turned into a movie by the Coen Brothers.
Justin_Meisse: I don't get your "No Country for Old Men" comment.
[/ QUOTE ]
My point was simply that I recall a time when game development was different. It was more about that garage game culture and less about making it big or seeing your name on the screen. You are correct Justin, perhaps my time in the commercial game industry has pulled me further from the indie scene; hard to say.
[ QUOTE ]
Rhinokey: i would like you to spend all your time doing code for MY game idea.
[/ QUOTE ] Well honestly Rhino, I'd be open to listening if you weren't being so sarcastic. Of course I'd like for you to make content for MY game because I'm the one asking. If you had asked me about YOUR game then I would look it over and think about it. I wouldn't just shoot it down and make snide remarks because I think "he just wants my code, man!". But that's just me.
[ QUOTE ]
SupRore: We trade in assets, not information. ... It takes a really shallow understanding of what game artists actually do to call us selfish and greedy.
[/ QUOTE ] SupRore, other than that last comment I appreciate your honest assessment. I never called anyone selfish or greedy though. I'm simply saying that there is a definite gap in how programmers share information vs how artists do. I understand completely where you are coming from and it's a solid argument for keeping assets closed. I'm genuinely curious; would you consider it, "a lesson learned" if you watched a tutorial on how to do __________ but your asset came out looking completely different than the tutorial? Would you be happy just knowing which buttons to push and what edges to extrude even if the model turned out differently?
Still though, sharing code is not like sharing information. I could write a whitepaper on the general ideas and show formulas and calculations on how to get something to work in code without ever handing out a line of C++, C#, Java or whatever. I would argue that "code" is a programmers asset and his thesis papers and whitepapers are his equvalent of a video tutorial for an artist. It's a roadmap that may lead to different solutions but the fundamentals are the same.
honestly, maybe your idea just didn't interest anyone, look at this thread
No hard feelings peeps, it was a debate not an attack. In the words of Ron Burgandy, "agree to disagree"
bottom line, no one gave a rats ass about working on your game for free and you got upset and made a scene.
[/ QUOTE ]
Argh
Also, I should note that the contest was fairly low tech and amateur on purpose to attract students as well. If some professional artists was interested in setting up a profit share instead of just contributing then I'd be open to that, but I guess it's easier to just call me names