West Coast entry level artist salary?
Hi guys,
Any one would be kind enough to give me a hint of the number? I know the average is about 30k to 40k, but that includes East coast.
Thank you.
Any one would be kind enough to give me a hint of the number? I know the average is about 30k to 40k, but that includes East coast.
Thank you.
Replies
But 17K? how can I live on that?
My first industry job was for a shit-hole in the wall place in Illinois. No joke, the walls were teeming with rot, and would occasionally flake off onto the desk. Electrical sockets and surge protectors would melt... nice eh? Even still, I was paid $26.5k to start.
That was about 8 years ago. These days, just breaking in, I wouldn't settle for less than $30k. Housing and cost of living is just too damn high for anything less.
Um, compared to where I come from...I'm really spend thrift.
Here in Tennessee, I'm paying rent (on a 3 bedroom house), utilities, phone, cable, and food for just over $1000 a month. $55k here would leave me $43k left over for "mad money"
Here in Tennessee, I'm paying rent (on a 3 bedroom house), utilities, phone, cable, and food for just over $1000 a month.
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bloody hell, thats about £500 here. You'd be lucky to get a two bedroom house - nothing inclusive - for that
I turned down a job making almost $15k more per year to come to Gearbox. No way $15k more a year in SoCal would have allowed me to have a lifestyle comparable to what I have in Plano for less money.
So much to consider when making these decisions. Cost of living and your quality of life is a major one for me.
I am living in Chicago now where the cost of living is less than San Diego and I'm only 4 miles from my studio. In San Diego I would never have been able to afford to live 4 miles from any of the studios.
Just some things to consider.
West coast in terms of Los Angeles starting salary shouldn't be below 50k I'd wager.
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LA and Bay Area cost of living is ridiculously expensive. I have a friend who lives in the bay area who just started as a designer at 40k and it's like making 20k back in Rochester NY, where he and I are from. Not exactly abject poverty but he needs to keep the purse strings tight and has multiple roommates, whereas that same number back home in Rochester would allow him a nice apartment or starter home and overall higher quality of life.
find some cost of living calculators (cnn's business site used to have one) and use it to figure out what you'll need to survive.
West coast in terms of Los Angeles starting salary shouldn't be below 50k I'd wager.
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I really doubt you'd find many entry level jobs paying that much.
-caseyjones
You spoiled pricks. If this is your first job, take whatever you can get
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That is exactly the kind of attitude that is going to ruin/is ruining the game industry for experienced talent. Why pay someone $50k/yr when you can get someone fresh out of school for $8.25/hr? It happened to the graphic design industry years ago, it will happen to us too if the attitude of "take whatever they are willing to give you just to get the job" prevails. If you possess enough talent that employers are interested in you, take nothing less than what you are worth and what you deserve. In fact, ask for 2x as much as you think you can possibly get out of them. It will be better for all of us in the end.
That is exactly the kind of attitude that is going to ruin/is ruining the game industry for experienced talent. Why pay someone $50k/yr when you can get someone fresh out of school for $8.25/hr? It happened to the graphic design industry years ago, it will happen to us too if the attitude of "take whatever they are willing to give you just to get the job" prevails. If you possess enough talent that employers are interested in you, take nothing less than what you are worth and what you deserve. In fact, ask for as much as you think you can possibly get out of them. It will be better for all of us in the end.
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It is unbelievably difficult for an artist with no experience to get hired. Is it fair to say to someone "no, you turn down the job if they don't pay x amount... it will be good for you in the long run." Can you honestly say, if when you were going to enter the industry, and were offered something lower than you thought you were worth, you would have turned it down if a veteran said you should? Of course not. You would take what you can get.
My whole point was aimed at fresh/new artists. You say yourself say :"If you possess enough talent that employers are interested in you, take nothing less than what you are worth and what you deserve."
That's the whole point. Employers aren't interested in you. They are interested in experienced talent, or very exceptional new talent. The fact is, the OP, and the vast majority of artists seeking work in the industry, aren't, by very definition, experienced or exceptional and employers generally don't have an interest. What you think you deserve is not as important as what you can demonstrate you are worth. Most portfolios of new artists aren't worth high salaries- if they are, they are usually employed.
I will use my own experience as an example. Once I started applying for jobs after graduation, I got a call from a recruiter who was very impressed with my work, and even though I didn't have experience he would help me find work. Well, my portfolio was good, but my other talents lay in the more technical realm and that was where I was headed. And I only had characters to show (no envs or props), whereas finding character work as an entry-level guy is quite rare. I found work doing some architectural modeling but offers did not come (had a phone interview with a studio but that never amounted to anything). When I finally got an offer in September from the company I work for now, I took it. I was fortunate and am making a reasonably good salary, even though the job and work I do is, along with a couple programmers, vital to the project and if I hadn't come along the project would have suffered greatly (I was hired as an artist but immediately moved into technical/pipeline stuff, as none was existent). And when I change jobs, I will expect to be paid appropriately; the fact I work far beyond my salary doesn't make me complain, and honestly, I'd do this for a much less salary. If I held out for what I thought I was worth, I may not have taken the job, and I'd still be doing boring ass architectural modeling.
Your whole idea falls apart when you say "Why pay someone $50k/yr when you can get someone fresh out of school for $8.25/hr?" That's an absurd hypothetical. Find me someone fresh out of school who can do what a vet with a few years can do? And if he can, he is the exception (or she is the exception which is even more exceptional), and will be competing with those veterans salary-wise. If experienced talent is valuable and of a higher quality, don't worry about being paid appropriately. Skilled talent is, by very definition, not of the generic or entry-level quality. If the quality is on par with someone inexperienced, the experienced person isn't skilled, or there is some other important factor that allows entry-level people to compete with experienced veterans. If the salaries of industry pros comes down, it won't be because entry level people will settle for less money. Even if it were, how could you stop this from happening? By telling them not to take a job? Will you switch jobs with them for the 'greater good' and work as a cashier or clerk, like you are asking them to do? Of course not. I am not familiar with how the graphic design industry was 'ruined for experienced talent' but I stand by my advice to take whatever game job you can get if you don't have the experience or resume to be selective, which almost no entry level artist has.
Now if you will excuse me, I need to get back to my second job, because apparently I should have asked for more money to help the financial futures of others instead.
Now if you will excuse me, I need to get back to my second job, because apparently I should have asked for more money to help the financial futures of others instead.
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Yea, you should have. Although you would have been also helping your own financial future as well as not having to work two jobs to make ends meet.
Yea, you should have. Although you would have been also helping your own financial future as well as not having to work two jobs to make ends meet.
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Then I would be working one shitty job (or two, if I went back to waiting tables) and living back home in New York, where while I wasn't unhappy I knew things should be better. I really don't enjoy the East Coast. I asked for more than they gave me and if I didn't snatch the job up, someone else would have for less. Instead, I took their offer, and I can't wait to go to work every morning, I am in a job doing exactly what I want to do, a job where I can explore the full range of my skills instead of make props all day, working on a high-profile product. And, though I don't really care much about money as I don't spend much on myself, I will be making much more in my next job as a technical artist, rather than if I were modeling props or levels and my next job were that (as well as finding a job much more easily as a technical artist).
No, I should have held out like you say... held out for a job that would have probably offered not much more and would have arrived, when, exactly?
No one is in game development for money (on the development side, at least). There are plenty of jobs to do if you want to make money. One reason game developers are so underpaid is because it is the greatest industry around; I'd rather be a developer than a porn actor, tbh. There is so much competition, which is understandable. Asking entry level kids to hold out is helping you and you alone; would you really, honestly, hold out as an entry-level guy for how much you 'think you are worth?' The idea that the OP, or any normal unemployed no-experience artist should hold out for more money or a better offer, is extremely naive. The only way it would work is if everyone did that (a basic prerequisite would be developer unionization). In the meantime, the only person it benefits are those with jobs already.
It is unbelievably difficult for an artist with no experience to get hired. Is it fair to say to someone "no, you turn down the job if they don't pay x amount... it will be good for you in the long run." Can you honestly say, if when you were going to enter the industry, and were offered something lower than you thought you were worth, you would have turned it down if a veteran said you should? Of course not. You would take what you can get.
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Um i did just that, before i got my first job i turned down a few. I knew what i wanted in a job and how much i should be getting paid to do it.
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My whole point was aimed at fresh/new artists. You say yourself say :"If you possess enough talent that employers are interested in you, take nothing less than what you are worth and what you deserve."
That's the whole point. Employers aren't interested in you. They are interested in experienced talent, or very exceptional new talent. The fact is, the OP, and the vast majority of artists seeking work in the industry, aren't, by very definition, experienced or exceptional and employers generally don't have an interest. What you think you deserve is not as important as what you can demonstrate you are worth. Most portfolios of new artists aren't worth high salaries- if they are, they are usually employed.
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Um yeah company's do want fresh talented meat because they can pay them entry wages not 5 years experience wages. As long as the fresh meat has the talent to make up for the lack of experience they should by all means shop around. If you cant compete with the guys already in then yeah why would they want you.
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Your whole idea falls apart when you say "Why pay someone $50k/yr when you can get someone fresh out of school for $8.25/hr?" That's an absurd hypothetical. Find me someone fresh out of school who can do what a vet with a few years can do? And if he can, he is the exception (or she is the exception which is even more exceptional), and will be competing with those veterans salary-wise. If experienced talent is valuable and of a higher quality, don't worry about being paid appropriately. Skilled talent is, by very definition, not of the generic or entry-level quality. If the quality is on par with someone inexperienced, the experienced person isn't skilled, or there is some other important factor that allows entry-level people to compete with experienced veterans. If the salaries of industry pros comes down, it won't be because entry level people will settle for less money. Even if it were, how could you stop this from happening? By telling them not to take a job? Will you switch jobs with them for the 'greater good' and work as a cashier or clerk, like you are asking them to do? Of course not. I am not familiar with how the graphic design industry was 'ruined for experienced talent' but I stand by my advice to take whatever game job you can get if you don't have the experience or resume to be selective, which almost no entry level artist has.
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This i agree with completely.
But i believe that you shouldn't be trying to get a job if your skill level isn't on par or better with the work coming out of the company you apply at. So many soso artists apply at bleeding edge studios just to get turned down. If they were applying at the company's that make the same level of art as what they can produce they would get hired. They wouldn't even have to take a super shitty wage to get the job and they would learn alot! I get that no one wants to except that they are not good enough to work at the company of their dreams but that doesn't mean they cant get a job.
/end rant
rember this is real worth. not "my mommy says i'm awesome" worth
rember this is real worth. not "my mommy says i'm awesome" worth
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cue "your mommy says i'm awesome" joke from someone
i'm actually pretty chuffed at the moment - i currently don't really know any game developers who are properly underpaid. Well, i suppose, when you see the amount of revenue you generate you could *always claim you're underpaid ... but in terms of comfortable salaries for the areas they live in, the vast majority of my gamey type aquaintancies seem pretty happy. And, honestly, that's the first time in 10 years i've been able to say that.
Make a reasonable assessment of what you are worth and ask for it. A company that that tries to low ball you is not only insulting you, they are proving that getting pay increases in the future will be a tough battle. Most "good" studios will make an effort to try to pay what you are asking if they care about their employees. It's never a good start for both parties if their new hire has a chip on the shoulder because they accepted a lower salary.
If you are new to the industry it is sometimes acceptable to take a lower salary if the studio you are applying to shows great potential for return. And by "return" I mean useful experience. If you know the studio is loaded with talent, and you talked with that talent and found them to be nice and willing to teach you. Even if you are the best f'n artist to ever hit the industry, don't underestimate the value of experience. A good company knows the value of experience which is why they sometimes will throw a low number at you if you are inexperienced. They know that in the first year a good amount of time will be spent training you.
Check the Game Developer Annual Salary Survey results. I forget what issue they were published in. It'll be insanely more helpful for west coast entry level salary information.
Also I'd maybe find some people in the area you are thinking of and privately ask them about things like this. That's how I did it and it helped me a lot when I first got a in.
The temptation is to pick a small company that pays better and gives you more freedom. Fight that urge; because smart move is to goto an established studio that makes critically acclaimed games, because your chances of learning from quality developers improves.
I live in The Bay Area. I came down here and accidentally low balled myself...not by much, but I felt it. I had to fight hard to get paid what I deserve, and it took me almost three years to do it, and I had to learn how to script and write my own art tools to justify the boost in salary. This was all my fault though, I could've gotten more.
The industry here is amazing. Many of the big industry conventions are here in California, many of the best minds of the industry at some point or another move through California. I have learned at a much faster pace over the last 3 years than the previous 4 in the bizz.
Along with the high cost of living comes a great quality of life. There are 'so many' good restaurants to eat at here, and they are not ridiculously expensive. The same quality of food somewhere else would be 'extremely' expensive.
All the big bands come to the bay. Sports are huge here; The Raiders, the 49ers, the Giants, the Warriors, the Athletics, all within a 30 mile radius. We haven't even started talking about the weather. I grew up in Montreal, and at this time of the year I couldn't go outside with just a sweater or a raincoat.
There of course is a downside too. I have roommates, I can't buy my own home, the bay has the highest car insurance rate in the country. These things suck.
If you are used to having assault weapons, then look elsewhere. You are not allowed to own them in Cali.
But overall, working in california has done fantastic things for my career, for my quality of life, and I'd recommend it to anyone who isn't a conservative cuntscab who hates 'dem colored folk'.
-R
The average salary across the united states for an artist/animator with less than 3 years of exp. is about $45,400.
The average salary in California across all disciplines and years of exp. is $79,553, only 36% own homes, and the average salary of homeowners is around $100,000. Also, the average salary for artists in the western region is $54,871.
I think the best thing to do is look at what bills you have where you are now and then compare what they would be where you're moving to. The biggest cost of living difference I've seen between other states and CA is the cost of housing. Average rents for decent 1 bedroom apartments in say, the orange county area, are 1,200/mo.
If you're working a crappy non-art job and living paycheck to paycheck or living with your parents, then I think just about anything is worth a shot for your future.
Best of luck!
thank you all for the inputs. I just came back from GDC 08 and found out that job market for entry level artists are not optimistic. I did get an offer of 42k plus benefits stuff in IL. But it is not mainstream game (console only). I am pretty torn. Everyone wants to do next gen of course, but I have loans to pay and family to support.Looking at my peers who already graduated one or more years hanging around in GDC hunting for the first job, I felt like I should take it.
Southern CA
junior - 40-ish
mid level - 50-60ish
Senior - 70 - 85ish
Senior level at good companies come to you after demonstration of great character and dedication as well as consistency of great art work.
Keep in mind, to be a senior artist, employers like it when you live that level and demonstrate that ability before you take on that title and pay.
TAKE THE JOB.
Portfolio is 75% of the journey. But, Attitude and compatibility(which is judged in the interview) is the "KEY" to the VOLT so to speak.
So in essence, keep your skills sharp at home. Your work experience will let other employers know you can work within a structure. A team.
i don't understand why you think "console only" doesn't equal mainstream though. thats an oddly blinkered point of view, especially when you're in the market for a job ... employers want and need to know that you're switched on to the Great and Exciting World of Games ... console-only is most definitely mainstream
You can also take that 42k a year, do some math and see what the hourly wage is for 8 hour a day 5 day a week work.
However, I know from experience that a job isn't something you take lightly. Neither when you consider it, nor when you're doing it. The interviews you have with the company isn't just for them to get a feel for you, it's just as much for you to get a feel for them. If it really doesn't feel right somehow, consider turning it down, if you do have that option.
They said the Roncarelli Report on Computer Animation industry for 2003 gives the annual salary bracket for junior artists at West Coast US studios as $22k-48k. East coast figures were about 82% of tha tnumber. Artists in major cities tended to earn more. The entry level for CG Architects though was $35-50k....
For game animators the entry level animator is $45-55k, depending on the location of the studio. The salary range for entry level game animators has not increased much in recent years because of the competition.
So it says..