psst... we stopped riding horses and settling gambling disputes with pistols at high noon when the cheese burger was invented. Ever since then we've been too fat and lazy to bother...
Someone needs to take a trip outside of his own country and see for himself instead of relaying on miss information and stereotypes. I'd take a trip to Europe but I hear there is a nasty outbreak of the ignorance plague, or was it the arrogance strain they are effected by now?
If we are going to start stereotyping you might want to throw a hint of humor in there so we know you are not as retarded as you're reading.
Now if you'll excuse me I have to polish my gun before I head off to a bell tower to let liberty ring. WOLVERINES!
If you mean small firearms and typical street crime, then you're not talking about "this kind of thing." The guy used a freaking assault rifle in a public shopping mall. That's not a crime of passion or a rash decision, not a "wild west"mentality. This was a planned and deliberate murder.
Dude could have gotten into his car, plowed into a crowd of holiday shoppers in the parking lot and killed as many people as he did with the rifle. You'd get exactly the same result, except that people would have to find something to blame other than guns.
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psst... we stopped riding horses and settling gambling disputes with pistols at high noon when the cheese burger was invented. Ever since then we've been too fat and lazy to bother...
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Funny you mention that, because apparently the catalyst for this whole thing was that he just got fired from McDonald's...I don't know why that would send someone off the hook, as everyone I know whom were fired from any fast food chain found it to be a more liberating experience.
I like how people outside the US rave about their countries low gun crimes and tout that their society is far superior because they don't have a use for guns, they've some how progressed far above the need. Lets level the playing field a bit, what would happen if the gun laws that apply to the US suddenly applied everywhere else and everyone could own a gun? The world would go mad and kill itself in a week.
"our government doesn't trust us to own guns, so they take them away."
And some how the society that allows it citizens the freedom to choose for themselves, is backwards and uncivilized?
Show me a society where anyone can carry a gun and no one is killed by them and I'll show you a progressive place to live. Simply locking up the bang bangs doesn't make you utopia. Of course America isn't perfect and I'm not suggesting it ever will be, but at some point you have to stop blaming the tools and focus on the mechanic thats doing the hack job in the first place. Otherwise he's just going to sling a sloppy pile of hash at his next job, when you take his tools away. Fix the broken people, fix the problem.
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"our government doesn't trust us to own guns, so they take them away." And some how the society that allows it citizens the freedom to choose for themselves, is backwards and uncivilized?
Where and how the fuck do you buy an assault rifle?
Looking after mentalists and stopping them being mental takes a lot of dedication, and a long long time. So, just for a fucking giggle in the meantime, let's answer that question about the assault rifle first. Humour me.
We're on the same page danr. I'm all for proper gun control laws, but lets also work on getting to the root of the issue. I don't buy into the idea that we should do nothing for the mentally ill because it is too big of a problem. Might as well stop fighting aids and why worry about that pesky cancer if its going to take too long to cure? There is no magic bullet for issues like this so what do we do? We chip away at it a piece at a time, and pass on the importance of making progress to our children. Even if its small progress its still a steps in the right direction.
As I said before in the serious part of my first post: "Hopefully we can ALSO address the issues of why people feel the need to pick up the gun and use it as an offensive weapon on innocent people."
I blame modern emo music. No really, I do. I just watched a My Chemical Romance video on telly, and it was so vile I feel the need to gun down a few innocents just to purge myself. But as far as I can tell, that was the message of the video anyway, so I'm guiltless. Ace! So, note written, its all their fault, I'm a righteous leveller ... Now where's the yellow pages, I need the number of a gun shop
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Where and how the fuck do you buy an assault rifle?
Looking after mentalists and stopping them being mental takes a lot of dedication, and a long long time. So, just for a fucking giggle in the meantime, let's answer that question about the assault rifle first. Humour me.
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semi-automatic AK-47's are cheap rifles that some people think look cool, those people being stinking commie bastards!
J_m ... Cheap they may be, I'm still clueless as to where to buy one.
Faeciousness aside - the gun is a symbol. No-ones going to deny that. Its a traditional extension of anger, of vengeance, of justice in some peoples view. That's why nutters choose to use them for these statements. You could try the same thing with a hammer, but it doesn't have the same fearful visceral impact, its just "bloody hell, there's a bloke over there going spastic with a hammer, keep back", its not going to get the screams and the panic going, and someones going to have you on the ground in seconds anyway, and be stamping on your throat.
And true - you COULD kill the same amount of people by ploughing a car into them in the parking lot, but let's face it, that's a bit of a fliddy way of making your mental point. Everyone could just jump out of the way, and there's you with a bleeding forehead and steam pouring from the engine, with some paramedic asking how many fingers
So yeah, I think we can begin to answer why people take up guns without getting too far into their brains or problems
Its likely that a lot of arguments against this line of thinking are going to come from those who are very casual around guns, who are generally deadened to their fearful power, cos that's what you've been brought up with. People have been taught to handle them fron an early age, how to be safe, how to respect them. Others, like myself and everyone I ever grew up with didn't have this - we had no need to be taught how to behave around guns, cos there simply weren't and aren't any around. We have an inherent fear of them, in the right or wrong hands. In the
Uk, a policeman strolling around the families and kids in the departure lounge of an airport carrying an MP5 is a truly awesome sight. It freaks me out terribly.In some other countries, this is absolutely nothing, bloke with a submachine gun, so what.
Personally speaking I'm freaked out by casuality surrounding anything dangerous, be it a gun, a knife, a fast car that the driver doesn't have the skill to handle, a revolving door, an umbrella. Freaked out, and CREEPED out in many cases. Fuck me, look at what it is, look at what it does, look at what it CAN do and look at how easy it is to get hold of. Brrrrrrr
I think this kid is completely responsible for his own actions and there's no shifting the blame for what he did off his shoulders. Simultaneously though, society has failed to notice and act on his dysfunction. Be it his parents, his teachers, friends or workmates. Couple that with the current US gun ownership laws and you don't need to guess too hard about what happens next.
Some of the opinions I've heard arguing "guns don't kill people...", "the right to bear arms = freedom to choose/a god given right", "guns are everywhere in the US, so it's too hard to reform the laws" and "he's just an emo loser looking to make headlines" are pretty scary to be honest. Sounds like the kind of attitudes that just pave the way for this shit to happen again and again...
Don't get me wrong, it seems like a daunting task to make the appropriate social and legal changes. It's much easier to just blame the dead guy and forget it until the next time.
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We're on the same page danr. I'm all for proper gun control laws, but lets also work on getting to the root of the issue.
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Exactly. Banning guns in America is an impossible task, but proper gun control? That's sensible. danr wants to know how you get an AK-47, and that's a good question. The kid probably took advantage of one the off-the-books methods, like a gun show or buying from a private collector, and those situations ARE problems. I have no qualms at all with requiring people to get licenses for firearms, and for all weapons to be registered. You have to take a test and get a driver's license to drive a car, and the vehicle has to be registered with the government, etc. Why not do that with guns? If gun SELLERS were held accountable when weapons get into unlawful/unregistered buyers hands, 19 year old kids would have a hell of a lot harder time getting them.
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ban guns! I mean, making pot illegal sure worked. nobody smokes that anymore...
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Yeah, but you can't grow a gun by planting bullets. I can go to my local Wal-Mart and get everything I need to start a pot farm in my garage for under $40, but manufacturing firearms is a bit more involved.
And the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument is just as much a red herring. Well no shit people kill people, that's why we charge the person with murder and not the instrument, but what do you think the death certificate says? "Cause of death: people."
Yesterday, more people died from car accidents, than shootings. Let's ban cars. Yay for public transportation. Oh crap, I'm sitting next to a minority. Is that a bomb? Back to cars.
Music, games, gun control really aren't the issue at all here. The coward made a choice. He wanted to go, and wanted everyone to know about it.
Gun control and banning guns is a touchy subject. Banning guns would be the worst thing to do. In my opinion.
Another thing to think of here. What if there would have been a man in the mall in the vicinity of this young man when the shit hit the fan that had a concealed weapons permit and had his say 9mm glock on him. That may have actually have saved a life or two by having this citizen shoot the attacker in defense for everyone else.
I don't know how many people here have actually held guns, had a gun pulled on them or been in a combat type scenario. I have been in all three. Luckily the coward that pulled the gun on me didn't pull the trigger. You know why he pulled it on me? I confronted him for beating the shit out of his girlfriend whom was one of my wifes friends. He was a tiny little prick of a man and felt tough behind the gun.
People like this kid and gang bangers and other people that have committed acts of violence like this want people to fear them because they are either so miserable in their own lives or have no real friends that they want others to experience their loss and hurt.
This kid wanted to get famous and because of our media blarring his picture and name all over he is. Fuck that. Show the victims photos. Show their families. They are the ones we should hear about and care about. Not this mindless bastard.
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Gun control and banning guns is a touchy subject. Banning guns would be the worst thing to do. In my opinion.
Another thing to think of here. What if there would have been a man in the mall in the vicinity of this young man when the shit hit the fan that had a concealed weapons permit and had his say 9mm glock on him. That may have actually have saved a life or two by having this citizen shoot the attacker in defense for everyone else.
I don't know how many people here have actually held guns, had a gun pulled on them or been in a combat type scenario. I have been in all three. Luckily the coward that pulled the gun on me didn't pull the trigger. You know why he pulled it on me? I confronted him for beating the shit out of his girlfriend whom was one of my wifes friends. He was a tiny little prick of a man and felt tough behind the gun.
People like this kid and gang bangers and other people that have committed acts of violence like this want people to fear them because they are either so miserable in their own lives or have no real friends that they want others to experience their loss and hurt.
This kid wanted to get famous and because of our media blarring his picture and name all over he is. Fuck that. Show the victims photos. Show their families. They are the ones we should hear about and care about. Not this mindless bastard.
You can buy any semi automatic weapon, which happens to include very powerful rifles like an ak 47 and sniper rifles. Why is it allowed, I have no freaking idea. I can see someone wanting a 45, 9 mm, 38, maybe a magnum for self defense. A freaking ak 47 what the hell for, those damn deers in the woods, very dangerous, or those giant turtles, freaking serpents, oh I know the damn killer bees that are coming. There are different types of gun permits that you can get as well, which allow you to purchase even more powerful guns, yes because them deers in the woods are crazy. I need a rifle that can punch a hole through and elephant's skull, clerk says no problem I just need to see your permit. Enjoy, oh would you want some ammunition for that. Sure why not. Gun control in this country is a joke period, and the laws that punish people that have guns illegally are a joke as well.
at KeyserSoze , when someone gets killed by guns, the cause of death should say shot by an ahole with no penis.
We should ban Macdonalds as well, that clown is a prick.
The funny part, in a scary kind of way, what I have experienced so far is that people that own guns and have permits or the ones that want them are the people that should never ever be allowed to own them. Why cause they are unstable, egotistical, control freeks who usually want to kill you if they don't get there way. Also can't handle loss, conflict or any kind of discomfort in a healthy way. This is what I noticed. It might be just the awesome jobs I have had since turning an adult though, it has allowed me to meet some of the most awesome and wonderful human beings in my life. Yeah being sarcastic.
I've been thinking about the Chris Rock quote that Rick Sterling posted. Its not a bad idea. I don't know what sort of taxes exist on firearms now, but adding a very sizable tax to both guns and ammunition would eventualy lead to a significant reduction in the use of firearms amongst the general populace. Its not an entire solution certainly, but it seems like a step forward.
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The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution is not a loophole.
[/ QUOTE ]Its a part of a legal document thats being taken out of context for an exploitative goal. Thats a loophole.
The people walking into the gun shop, waiting the 30 days, allowing the background checks and taking the classes, won't be the same people bustin a cap over some crack deal gone bad.
All of the recent massacres I can think of, the shooter used an illegal weapon.
The gun owners that jump through the legal hoops are not the ones committing the crimes. In this case he stole the gun he used. Sure if he didn't have access to it he wouldn't have been able to use it, but he would have gotten it from some other place, or used another means to commit the same crime. Yes the issue of how easily the gun fell into the hands of a psycho needs to be dealt with but the issue of the psycho needs to be addressed also. It's a two part problem and both need to be addressed if you really want to curb the issue.
And that Chris Rock quote is perfect. We tax the hell out of cigarettes and gas, why not ammo?
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A freaking ak 47 what the hell for, those damn deers in the woods, very dangerous, or those giant turtles, freaking serpents, oh I know the damn killer bees that are coming.
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remember, this is a semi-automatic AK-47, this isn't the spray of bullets you see in Iraq, it's pretty much a deer rifle.
The kid from the Virginia Tech shootings received his guns legally. He shouldn't have been able to buy them though because of his history.
The problem is we don't have a decent system set up to really find out if someone is a certified loon.
You can purchase parts for assault rifles in a lot of magazines and build your own so to speak. It's really not that easy. My dad builds guns for a living. He lives in Maine and hunts. All his stuff is legal but he says it's crazy that it is so easy for someone to get a high powered assault rifle.
I could even have a .50 cal rifle built. What the hell would that be good for? Shooting semi trucks? It isn't for hunting yet in some states it is possible to own one. The reason. Target practice.
Now take said person that owns .50 cal for sport and he loses his whole family in a terrible accident and goes a tad crazy. Drinks a lot and just hates life. Said person climbs up to a high location near a large amount of people and starts shooting.
This type of thing has happened before and could easily happen again.
still its a fucking rifle ! and also i think that pistols and etc by a psychopath compared to knives etc are way more dangerous , why ? 1 shot and you go to the groud, another one, you are dead, unless he hit you in the arm. Knives, the guy stabs you in the back or chest, you can still crawl and theres a chance of survival. There are people that survived 17 stab wounds or something like that .a pistol 2 or 3 rounds you are more than dead.
I hope people dont see this as me bashing americans im just giving my vision , and yeah its based on what i see on the news and hear , theres no way i know how it really is, but there is alot of people that think the same way as i do , not that it is correct tho...
honestly that "i must have guns to protect myself" is something i dont get yet. its more "i need a gun in the unlikely event of 1% chance of happening of me beeing mugged or someone kidnaps my family or my neighbour trespasses my lawn , then i have the time to think, get my gun and kill someone, altho lots of domestic accidents happen because of guns."
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The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution is not a loophole.
[/ QUOTE ]Its a part of a legal document thats being taken out of context for an exploitative goal. Thats a loophole.
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You think it's "out of context" because we no longer maintain civilian militias? No way, not at all. If we could get all of our founding fathers here today and ask them if they would willingly turn over their weapons because the federal government is going to take care of the whole military thing, no way do I believe they agree to that. The men that framed the Constitution lived through a war of rebellion against their lawful government, a rebellion that would have been impossible without individual arms ownership. The Continental Army didn't spring forth overnight, and it wasn't just an organized collection of city militias - it was assembled of armed groups and individuals, brought together because they no longer were willing to endure rule by their rightful government.
The Bill of Rights is designed to preserve specific individual liberties, irrespective of circumstance. There is no qualification of context to those rights. You're always entitled to freedom of religion, even if it's some heathen idol-worshiping cult that traditional faiths consider to be blasphemy. You're always guaranteed the right to a trial by jury, even if you're a murdering douchbag and everyone saw your crime on live TV. And you're always guaranteed the right to keep and bear arms, even if you think you don't need a civilian militia, solely and entirely because some day you MIGHT need a civilian militia.
The Bill of Rights was not written to make people free, it was written to keep people free. That people might exploit a given right is not a flaw of the Constitution, but of the state and federal laws that govern those rights.
Given the choice of dying from a stab wound or dying from a gun shot, I would gladly choose neither.
Considering most gun crimes and all knife crime happen at close range I doubt it makes much of a difference in your ablity to get away. Someone bent on killing you isn't going to stick you and let you crawl off.
"... it was assembled of armed groups and individuals ..." and the French.
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Now take said person that owns .50 cal for sport and he loses his whole family in a terrible accident and goes a tad crazy. Drinks a lot and just hates life. Said person climbs up to a high location near a large amount of people and starts shooting.
This type of thing has happened before and could easily happen again.
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I totally can not understand how anyone thinks that outlawing firearms makes the problems go away. Does the VT shooter just sit in his room all day and cry if he can't get his handguns? If he goes out with a knife and kills ten people instead of thirty with a handgun, does that mean the problem is solved?
I'll try to list the significant single-event shooting sprees in US history that have a death toll high enough that they need a firearm to pull off. I've got the UTexas massacre (14 people), Cal State in the 1970s (7), McDonalds shooting in 1984 (21), the original 'going postal' USPS massacre in 1986 (14), Stockton, Ca in the late 1980s (5), Luby's Restaurant (23), Long Island, NY (6), Jonesboro school shooting (5), Connecticut lottery in '98 (5), Ft. Worth Texas in 1999 (7, at a Christian rock concert of all things), Columbine (13), Hawaii Xerox guy (7), Wakefield, Mass (6), Red Lake in Minnesota (7), Wisconsin church shooting (7), Seattle in '06 (6), SLC mall rampage (6), VaTech (32), Crandon, Wisconsin a few months ago (6) and the mall guy we're talking about now (8).
I come up with 191 shooting massacre deaths in the last 40 years in America. Tim McVeigh killed 168 people in a single day with a truck full of fertilizer. We're talking fewer than 5 deaths per year in the last four decades from shooting rampages. 42,000 people die each year in auto accidents.
Maybe someday, somewhere, I'll be in a place where an unstable fucko with a assault rifle starts shooting at me. I could be one of those handful of victims per year. Meanwhile, I get on the freeway and drive 65mph hour with hundreds of other people in shitty winter weather at least twice a day, seven days a week. Which one of these should concern me more?
funny this thread turned into a gun debate, i guess its expected, i was more curious about about how it would impact the industry if in fact some right wing nut fundamentalist decided to use the violent games angle. Seems we are scapegoats for these types of things. as far as gun control, i dont know, i dont own a gun, and don't feel i need one really, but some people like their guns, and well they have guns so i am not going to tell them they dont need them, thats how you get shot.. and also shopping at malls apparently.
lesson of the day.. don't shop at malls, i can get all that stuff on the internet delivered to my home or office. people go crazy and do retarded stuff, the more people you have, the more crazies you have, maybe a better solution would be population control. make having a baby more complicated than buying a gun so only smart people can figure it out.
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The problem too is we aren't harsh enough on criminals. Peopel will sit on death row for years wasting tax payers money and shit until their lawyer finds a way to blame their crime on something else. Where the fuck is the accountability these days? Just like with the young Redskins player Sean Taylor that was shot recently. The kids that did it wanted to live a gangstas life with bitches, drugs, guns and money and they killed a guy that had turned his fucking life around and now his daughter will never have her dad again because these guys are ignorant and the shooter wants a plea deal. WHY?
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While a agree that what you brought up is unfortunate as fuck it doesn't have anything to do with how harsh you are on criminals. If the severity of the punishment really worked as a deterrent crime would've dissappeared long ago and we'd all be living in blissfully peaceful police states. Severity of punishment is only going to be something that someone who thinks they are going to get caught takes into consideration. So basically the people that weren't going to commit those crimes anyway are perhaps less likely to, but that doesn't help. This guy killed all these people in the mall with no intention of surviving, same with most spree shooters, so whether or not he's going to be strung up by his balls for days and lashed with glass studded whips is really unimportant. I guess the point is that when people decide to kill someone, they've 1.) passed the point of caring what happens to them afterward 2.)honestly think they can get away with it or 3.)don't have time to think about consiquences. In the case of the guys that killed the football player it sounds like it was a botched robbery, and he got shot after confronting the guys with a machete. I'd say that falls under 2 and 3.
Yeah I agree with you on that. My statement didn't really apply to this incident. It was more of a general statement to the ones that do get caught and thus try to point the finger.
As in humane as this is if you were put to death exactly the same way as you murdered the person or persons you did then maybe you would think twice about doing it. Maybe not.
There are a lot of issues and if you are dead set on killing yourself and taking down people with you it's going to be hard for someone to stop you.
I could easily rent a uhaul and do just the same thing Tim McVeigh did and say drive up to a large office building or a huge festival or even a large apartment building and take out at least 100 people.
Trying to find reason or blame in incidents like this is almost impossible. Why do people do anything they do? Murder and war has been in our nature since our days as cavemen, through the crusades, the world wars and will continue on until our planet is wiped out completely.
It is a sad thing for the familes touched by this tragedy that had to lose a loved one because of this kids ignorance. That is the only thing that should matter here is them.
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Meanwhile, I get on the freeway and drive 65mph hour with hundreds of other people in shitty winter weather at least twice a day, seven days a week. Which one of these should concern me more?
[/ QUOTE ]I'd look at that as "life is dangerous enough as it is without someone peppering me with bullets, but whatever. This is something we're never going to meet eye to eye on having grown up in different cultures. The only reason I care greatly about the issue is that I'm likely to immigrate to the US within a year or two and I'd like to survive long enough to add a few more games to my resume.
this shit happens not because of guns, music, video games or movies...
(maybe i should pre-face this with IMO and i havent read any posts since i posted last but i skimmed and it looks like it's all talk about firearms so screw it..)
these people lack IDENTITY. they are messed up in the head and are looking for something that defines them. this stupid ass country has not established culture (to be proud of). we are a bunch of 'wake up go to work and come home' dicks. we have no traditions or way of life for us to fit into that gives our lives meaning. so we turn to other means to express ourselves.. drugs, alcohol, violence, etc... these people are lost and need direction. they dont have this so they feel hopeless and that their lives are pointless.. yadda yadda... when there is utter hopelessness, disassociation with REAL people and etc then shit like this happens. want another example? look at native american reservation life... take away people's identity, put them in situations where there is no hope and shit happens.. or africa
firearm control only takes firearms out of the equation. it is NOT getting to the root of the problem. if it wasnt firearms then home-made explosives, knife fights, fist fights... this is like limiting car engines to a certain horsepower, it wont stop accidents. BUT.. yes, access to firearms does make it possible for much larger incidents. however, a ban on firearms will NOT solve this much deeper problem with society. throw in how we flash killers' faces all over tv and have them 30 ft tall on outdoor tvs and crap, no wonder these people want to 'go out in style'. would be much better to never mention these dicks and focus on healing people physically and mentally, but then that wouldnt make for good ratings..
and america is a fuckin huge country. i'd like to see some stat comparisons for violence in other areas of the same size, say,ALL of the european union.
this just off the top of my head and a few things ive thought about. im not going to go deeper than this cause i have way too many finals and shit to do and this is the only night i get to 'relax'. my roommate is watching Sailor Moon and im missing out so fuck it, im out.
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Meanwhile, I get on the freeway and drive 65mph hour with hundreds of other people in shitty winter weather at least twice a day, seven days a week. Which one of these should concern me more?
[/ QUOTE ]I'd look at that as "life is dangerous enough as it is without someone peppering me with bullets, but whatever. This is something we're never going to meet eye to eye on having grown up in different cultures. The only reason I care greatly about the issue is that I'm likely to immigrate to the US within a year or two and I'd like to survive long enough to add a few more games to my resume.
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As long as you stay off the roads, I'm sure your move to America would go well. All those cars are seriously dangerous
don't move here to tx. we carry machine guns and shoot shit all day for fun. fk, I have to shoot something before I work, and have to let off a shot everytime max crashes on me for no stupid reason...
If I didn't.... I'd be Un-american according to some foreigners..
Seriously though, I grew up with guys like that fktard and its not the guns. Guys like that will go off and rape a chick or stab a few people if they can't get a gun.
Take guns away and everyone will complain that we need knife control. Guns do more dmg, but focusing on the core issue of what drives someone to use violence is what should be looked into.
Take guns away and everyone will complain that we need knife control. Guns do more dmg, but focusing on the core issue of what drives someone to use violence is what should be looked into.
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Yup, you need to address the core issues of why people become spree killers. No doubt. Absolutley.
But like Dan said, how about in the meantime you consider removing easy access to portable machines designed to kill multiple people very efficiently in a short space of time?
Vermillion - those stats you posted up are scary. That is a *lot. Even for percentage of population, that's just too much
Consider, just for a moment, that one reason that many people in the US go on shooting sprees on a regular basis - the core issue, that many people have stated is the be all and end all of the debate - is that they grow up and live in a society psycho enough to have this creepy casualness surrounding guns and their effect. Comparing them in a good light to the cummulative danger of cars, and listing massacres like, hey, its not all that bad in the scheme of things ... no, sorry, that's just too casual for me.
There's a massive difference between shrugging when someone points out which end is the dangerous end, and shrugging when someone shows you which switch flicks it to full auto and how best to hold it while cranking out hundreds rounds a minute, all the better for taking down loads of targets at once. God, does the designed intention of some of these models that you can easily buy in a shop not set just one synapse tingling at the back of the brain? Not one flicker of recognition? And if it does, it seriously worries me when people try and vague the "gun factor" away in favour of stating intent that we should find the REAL problem of why people are mental. Ever strike you that the two aren't disconnected?
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america is a fuckin huge country. i'd like to see some stat comparisons for violence in other areas of the same size, say,ALL of the european union.
[/ QUOTE ]How about Australia. We're pretty much exactly the same size. I can't find the statistics for the last couple of years, but in 2004 we had 283 gun related fatalities, 77% of which were suicides. The number of fatalities has been in steady decline since the new gun control measures were added and the government buy up of guns in 1996, and now sits at half of what it was shortly before that year. Something to consider.
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Vermillion - those stats you posted up are scary. That is a *lot. Even for percentage of population, that's just too much
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Sure, it's too much. I think any amount of murder qualifies as too much. But a lot? Five people per year? There are more than 80 people killed per year by lightning, and I don't worry about that happening to me.
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Consider, just for a moment, that one reason that many people in the US go on shooting sprees on a regular basis - the core issue, that many people have stated is the be all and end all of the debate - is that they grow up and live in a society psycho enough to have this creepy casualness surrounding guns and their effect. Comparing them in a good light to the cummulative danger of cars, and listing massacres like, hey, its not all that bad in the scheme of things ... no, sorry, that's just too casual for me.
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I don't think you (or anyone) can say what a reason people go on shooting sprees is. Each of these extremely few cases is unique. I mean, if you blame a gun-crazy society without explaining it, that's just as valid as Jack Thompson blaming video games and not explaining it.
Beyond that... again, I'm puzzled at the assumption by Europeans that there is a "creepy casualness" to weapons. America is not a Die Hard film. Let's turn that around a second: I think that Europe is a haven for terrorism. The Basque ETA in Spain, Turkish Hezbollah, the 17 November guys in Greece, and all kinds of paramilitary groups like the IRA and UDF right there in your own United Kingdom. I can't think of one actual domestic terrorist organization in America. You get the occasional one-off nutjob like McVeigh, but a bunch of guys with balaclavas and assault rifles setting off car bombs near busy intersections? Never happened. Shall I assume that Europe is just lazy about terrorism because, as an American, this is what I see in the news every now and then?
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There's a massive difference between shrugging when someone points out which end is the dangerous end, and shrugging when someone shows you which switch flicks it to full auto and how best to hold it while cranking out hundreds rounds a minute, all the better for taking down loads of targets at once. God, does the designed intention of some of these models that you can easily buy in a shop not set just one synapse tingling at the back of the brain? Not one flicker of recognition? And if it does, it seriously worries me when people try and vague the "gun factor" away in favour of stating intent that we should find the REAL problem of why people are mental. Ever strike you that the two aren't disconnected?
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Worried about my synapses, are you? I'm feeling friendly today so I'm gonna let the pedantic bit slide - this is a good topic.
You cannot "easily buy in a shop" any type of fully automatic weapon. Again, I'm assuming this is a misunderstanding from living in different places. In America, you can get guns easy enough, that's true - shotguns, semi-automatic rifles, and handguns. Fully automatic weapons, explosive ordinance, certain types of ammunition... that stuff is not out on store shelves.
I live in a city of more than a million people, in close proximity to both very urban and very rural areas. Also, I'm a pretty knowledgeable guy. I know where I could buy marijuana, probably cocaine. I know where I could get a prostitute (in theory! ) And I know where I could get stolen electronics or similar merchandise. I do not have any idea whatsoever how or where I could get my hands on an automatic weapon. It might be that this morsel of info has just missed me, but no way at all do I think that getting automatic weapons in America is easy. They're hard to find, and simply possessing them is a criminal offense.
I'm going too far with that tangent, I expect, but it's an important point with regards to America's perception by others. Guns really aren't everywhere (unless you live in Texas.)
As to the rest of it, does it strike me that guns and mental disorders are connected? Sure, just as much as it strikes me that video games are connected. They're both very common threads in these sorts of situations, right? If you want to do the correlation = causation thing (young killers have guns!), that means you get to accept all the other equally unproven corollaries (young killers play violent video games!)
Even better, consider this: Guns have been a part of American culture since the beginning, right? We've got two centuries of gun ownership in this country, but we don't have two centuries of teenagers using guns to kill random people. Generations of Americans have lived with shotguns on the wall, old military heirlooms, varmint rifles, target pistols, you name it. My dad's generation grew up int the 1950s, watching cowboy shows with wanton gunplay, day in and day out. But these shooting sprees... well, they didn't happen in the 1940s or 50s, and the one example from the 60s was a guy with a brain tumor. Nope, the shooting sprees really started in the later 70s, picked up steam in the 80s and really became a cultural phenomenon through the 1990s to today. What else started in the 1970s that has become a huge part of American culture today?
Video games.
That's where we go with correlation arguments, and I don't think any of us here feels the need to ban Call of Duty 4. As obvious as guns may be the issue to you, video games are just as obviously the issue to the Jack Thompsons of the world. I don't mean this as a slam, but your holding to your position is the same as him holding to his - focus on a symptom of mental ill health and declare it the cause, without proof and despite evidence to the contrary.
I think America does have a very aggressive culture. I think that's a factor in these sorts of things, and I am not sure how that has come about. But guns are not the cause. Guns don't make me enjoy watching a particularly violent tackle in football, nor enjoy destroying my opponent in Trivial Pursuit, nor driving way to fast on the freeway, nor whipping my best friend at Wii tennis. Americans are an aggressive people, that much I believe. Declaring guns the cause is like declaring video games the cause - it's too simple, it doesn't explain everything, and removing them from the equation still leaves a fundamentally violent character in place.
Take guns away and everyone will complain that we need knife control. Guns do more dmg, but focusing on the core issue of what drives someone to use violence is what should be looked into.
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Yup, you need to address the core issues of why people become spree killers. No doubt. Absolutley.
But like Dan said, how about in the meantime you consider removing easy access to portable machines designed to kill multiple people very efficiently in a short space of time?
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I'm starting to see what's going on here. Between you and Dan, it's quite clear you Britlanders are trying to disarm Americans so you can take the place back over and tax the fuck out of our tea. No way, pal - I'm going to form a militia according to my Constitutuional rights, just to pop a cap in your imperialist limey arses!.
Short of a badly gripped wiimote, no-one's ever really hurt anyone with a videogame. They could try, but its gonna be pretty laughable. "Jesus, you nearly caused a nasty gash with that dvd'
When you get down to the net result, there's no comparison to be made between the effect of guns, and the effect of cars, games etc. To me, this is pretty plain. Guns are made to kill, there's technology involved on certain models (models you CAN buy in shops) to make them more effective at killing than other models. And then you've got the relative ease of purchase, the rules concerning storage, the relish of ownership (revealed on this very board a few times with the "what handgun is best for me?" threads that we've seen in the past). The way people discuss them, you'd think they were just another household implement, something so mundane and common that they're not really worth special consideration. That's the casuality I'm referring to.
I'm expecting another "that's exactly what JT says about violent games" rebuke here, and I'd get equally frustrated with it ... It ... It ... It's a fucking GUN! Thompson can't prove the effect of a game, but its very easy to prove the effect of a gun. Load it up and point it at something soft. Preferably something soft, pink and with the ability to scream. Basic stuff, no, fuck off, it IS
Honestly, I think the whole gun argument would move to a different level quite quickly if everyone started appreciating them for what they are, and their inherent power. How many other debates run and run over things that are so plainly dangerous BY DESIGN and so very very fucking scary? Not many. Certainly an odd one. Actually its not that odd, its cos you're all mental (green smiley face)
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america is a fuckin huge country. i'd like to see some stat comparisons for violence in other areas of the same size, say,ALL of the european union.
[/ QUOTE ]How about Australia. We're pretty much exactly the same size. I can't find the statistics for the last couple of years, but in 2004 we had 283 gun related fatalities, 77% of which were suicides. The number of fatalities has been in steady decline since the new gun control measures were added and the government buy up of guns in 1996, and now sits at half of what it was shortly before that year. Something to consider.
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population of the United States: 303,545,000 4.55% ranked 3rd in the world for population.
population of Australia: 21,129,222 0.32% ranked 53rd in the world for population.
comparing those two doesnt work so well..
.the US has 14.something times the population of Austrailia. that's why i said the EU. for geographic size and population.
I'm right there with you until...
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... well, they didn't happen in the 1940s or 50s, and the one example from the 60s was a guy with a brain tumor. Nope, the shooting sprees really started in the later 70s, picked up steam in the 80s and really became a cultural phenomenon through the 1990s to today. What else started in the 1970s that has become a huge part of American culture today?
Video games.
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Instead of video games I would say the break up of the nuclear family. We split the atom and it blew apart our nuclear famlies. That strong stable ground most American baby boomers had as children is gone, replaced by lack of attention being placed on raising children properly, latch key kids day cares too over burdened to deal with each kid. Not to mention its the norm to only parent a child for the first 5 years then it up to the state and society. You can't read but you're on your own, hope you make it.
I'm all for equal rights and women in the work place but it screwed one of the core building blocks of our society and we haven't figured out a proper work around yet, which we desperately need to. When both parents started to work, more money was coming in, now inflation takes over and everything costs more. Now its not an option to have one parent stay home, both MUST work. Inflation continues to raise but salaries do not, marriages splinter apart because divorce is now the norm and single parents are left to try and fill the money gap by working more. Who's watching the kids, who's guiding their little lives? peers, media and a school system that is not built to handle such obligations.
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The world is going to shit, we're all going to die.
BRB, have to restock on guns, hamburger meat, and bibles.
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Well you are in the uppper midwest. Betcha got a shotgun rack and glass packs on the 4x4 with a big Oakley sticker in the back window and yosemite sam mudflaps.
You can argue population size as the cause of more crimes in one country than another but that doesn't matter. In Puerto Rico there are more than 2000 violent deaths a year By violent deaths I mean murder. Yes it belongs to the USA, and if you live there to be safe you need to have all your doors and windows locked. Every window has a system of bars called "rejas" and doors have gates, which are needed keep aholes out. Now for those of you that live in places where you safely leave your doors unlocked, PR is pretty safe and beautiful, it's doesn't look like a prison or hell. These bars and gates are considered very fancy and sort of like a luxury to some tourists that come visit. PR is soo small you don't see it on most maps. Also PR has pretty strict laws on gun control and you can't just go into a store and buy them. It's a pretty safe place to live in despite the crime rate though, and if you are smart and don't look for trouble you'll most likely be fine. That said there is a huge focus on religion and the parenting there is fairly strict compared to what I have seen in the USA. I mentioned religion because there is an apparent lack of how shall I say this, kids these days don't really have anything to believe in, sense of responsibility, they get what they want all the time in many parts of the USA. Kids don't get any discipline. Religion is a tool in my mind the gives the masses a code of conduct, dah, and something to believe in, or as I see it hope and a reason to live and do something.
I'm making a comment on how children are being raised and not a comment about how people need to find God and that kind of thing. So I don't want to hear any posts claiming I'm saying that. As far as I'm concerned it's up to a person if they choose to embrace a religion or if they find God or if they believe or not in such a thing, and they should do it because they feel it, and not be a pack of sheep and do so because it's a tradition or for show like many do.
Hell parents can have social services take their children away just on someones report, no evidence needed. If you give a person what they want all the time and then when they approach a certain age say 16 to 21 and suddenly you want them to be responsible you'll get a person that has no self control, no desire to do so and no respect for others. They'll do what they always do have fits of rage, temper tantrums, etc. While this alone won't motivate someone to go kill a few people and then himself, that fact that the person just acts on emotions doesn't help. Add any other factor to the equation and you get an ahole killing people. If a person is raised with no strong sense of what is right and wrong and isn't held accountable in a healthy manner, you essentially have a pycho. In the worst parts of PR the people there are also in the same kind of circle, no strong sense of what's right and wrong, don't care, lots of violence, nothing to live for, you get the picture. The whole I'm a thug mentality is all over the place in the USA, I have meet kids at jobs that want to be Pimps like it's something awesome. What I noticed is a lot of the USA nothing gets done about this except a lot of bitching about how guns, video games, music are evil and how they are corrupting the youth. So really guns aren't the problem people are. Back in the 90s I can't remember the date it was closer to 95 since I was a senior, the Governor of Puerto Rico was sick and tired of all the gang wars and shit going on, in as we call it, "el punto" so he started using the National Guard to raid the known hot spots. I heard it made the news in the USA. They did this at random all over the island. The other thing that shocks me about the news in Massachusetts for example is that it seems all rosey cosey, it seems to portray and image of perfection. In PR for example shit like a fireman or police officer getting a cat out of a tree is never mentioned in the news because it isn't news worthy and things like violent crimes are just mentioned breifly, mostly to criticize the great work the government is doing. We also hear of what is going on in the rest of the world especially Latin America. There seems to be some kind of censorship going on with the news, in the USA, it might be do to the size of the country, but we never hear anything about what happens to people in Detroit or other states, if they are screwed, we just get lots of fluff, and hardly anything on what going on in the rest of the world.
The interesting thing is that most of the murders that happened in PR were mostly because of gang violence, muggings, but random killings like the ones happening in schools, universities, malls just didn't happen. Yeah you would get killed if you tried to get with someones girl, dealt drugs, or if you screwed with the police.
Posted apparently "just hours after gunman Robert Hawkins killed eight shoppers in Omaha in the US".
What a tool. I suppose law enforcement agencies have to take these things seriously, if they ignored him and he did go on a rampage they'd be in deep shit for not acting. Although I do find the idea of someone being arrested for spouting depraved bullshit on 4chan.org kind of funny, I thought that's what it was for.
Why shouldn't he be arrested? I think he should be. Joke or not you don't say shit like that in todays society. Thats like getting on a fucking plane and saying some shit like I'm gonna fly this fucker straight into a building and not expect to be punished for it.
The kids a jackass for posting shit like that. These types of threats are taken very seriously and I think it's a good thing. Better to be safe then sorry.
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Someone needs to take a trip outside of his own country and see for himself instead of relaying on miss information and stereotypes. I'd take a trip to Europe but I hear there is a nasty outbreak of the ignorance plague, or was it the arrogance strain they are effected by now?
If we are going to start stereotyping you might want to throw a hint of humor in there so we know you are not as retarded as you're reading.
Now if you'll excuse me I have to polish my gun before I head off to a bell tower to let liberty ring. WOLVERINES!
Dude could have gotten into his car, plowed into a crowd of holiday shoppers in the parking lot and killed as many people as he did with the rifle. You'd get exactly the same result, except that people would have to find something to blame other than guns.
psst... we stopped riding horses and settling gambling disputes with pistols at high noon when the cheese burger was invented. Ever since then we've been too fat and lazy to bother...
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Funny you mention that, because apparently the catalyst for this whole thing was that he just got fired from McDonald's...I don't know why that would send someone off the hook, as everyone I know whom were fired from any fast food chain found it to be a more liberating experience.
I like how people outside the US rave about their countries low gun crimes and tout that their society is far superior because they don't have a use for guns, they've some how progressed far above the need. Lets level the playing field a bit, what would happen if the gun laws that apply to the US suddenly applied everywhere else and everyone could own a gun? The world would go mad and kill itself in a week.
"our government doesn't trust us to own guns, so they take them away."
And some how the society that allows it citizens the freedom to choose for themselves, is backwards and uncivilized?
Show me a society where anyone can carry a gun and no one is killed by them and I'll show you a progressive place to live. Simply locking up the bang bangs doesn't make you utopia. Of course America isn't perfect and I'm not suggesting it ever will be, but at some point you have to stop blaming the tools and focus on the mechanic thats doing the hack job in the first place. Otherwise he's just going to sling a sloppy pile of hash at his next job, when you take his tools away. Fix the broken people, fix the problem.
Criminals prefer an unarmed public...
i obviously ment small firearms. And yeah in europe there isnt a wild west mentality as far as i know ( might be wrong ).
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That's why the French eat horses!
Why just yesterday I shot a feller for cheatin' at poker, the marshal found the Ace up the varmint's sleave and I was cleared of all charges!
"our government doesn't trust us to own guns, so they take them away." And some how the society that allows it citizens the freedom to choose for themselves, is backwards and uncivilized?
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Straw man.
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Fix the broken people, fix the problem.
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Doublethink.
right so if he had a bat, or knife he could have killed someone. Could he have done anywhere near the same damage??
unlikely
Looking after mentalists and stopping them being mental takes a lot of dedication, and a long long time. So, just for a fucking giggle in the meantime, let's answer that question about the assault rifle first. Humour me.
As I said before in the serious part of my first post: "Hopefully we can ALSO address the issues of why people feel the need to pick up the gun and use it as an offensive weapon on innocent people."
Where and how the fuck do you buy an assault rifle?
Looking after mentalists and stopping them being mental takes a lot of dedication, and a long long time. So, just for a fucking giggle in the meantime, let's answer that question about the assault rifle first. Humour me.
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semi-automatic AK-47's are cheap rifles that some people think look cool, those people being stinking commie bastards!
Faeciousness aside - the gun is a symbol. No-ones going to deny that. Its a traditional extension of anger, of vengeance, of justice in some peoples view. That's why nutters choose to use them for these statements. You could try the same thing with a hammer, but it doesn't have the same fearful visceral impact, its just "bloody hell, there's a bloke over there going spastic with a hammer, keep back", its not going to get the screams and the panic going, and someones going to have you on the ground in seconds anyway, and be stamping on your throat.
And true - you COULD kill the same amount of people by ploughing a car into them in the parking lot, but let's face it, that's a bit of a fliddy way of making your mental point. Everyone could just jump out of the way, and there's you with a bleeding forehead and steam pouring from the engine, with some paramedic asking how many fingers
So yeah, I think we can begin to answer why people take up guns without getting too far into their brains or problems
Its likely that a lot of arguments against this line of thinking are going to come from those who are very casual around guns, who are generally deadened to their fearful power, cos that's what you've been brought up with. People have been taught to handle them fron an early age, how to be safe, how to respect them. Others, like myself and everyone I ever grew up with didn't have this - we had no need to be taught how to behave around guns, cos there simply weren't and aren't any around. We have an inherent fear of them, in the right or wrong hands. In the
Uk, a policeman strolling around the families and kids in the departure lounge of an airport carrying an MP5 is a truly awesome sight. It freaks me out terribly.In some other countries, this is absolutely nothing, bloke with a submachine gun, so what.
Personally speaking I'm freaked out by casuality surrounding anything dangerous, be it a gun, a knife, a fast car that the driver doesn't have the skill to handle, a revolving door, an umbrella. Freaked out, and CREEPED out in many cases. Fuck me, look at what it is, look at what it does, look at what it CAN do and look at how easy it is to get hold of. Brrrrrrr
Some of the opinions I've heard arguing "guns don't kill people...", "the right to bear arms = freedom to choose/a god given right", "guns are everywhere in the US, so it's too hard to reform the laws" and "he's just an emo loser looking to make headlines" are pretty scary to be honest. Sounds like the kind of attitudes that just pave the way for this shit to happen again and again...
Don't get me wrong, it seems like a daunting task to make the appropriate social and legal changes. It's much easier to just blame the dead guy and forget it until the next time.
Now if you'll excuse me I have to polish my gun before I head off to a bell tower to let liberty ring. WOLVERINES!
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LOLOLOLOL this right there had me shit my pants laughing!
We're on the same page danr. I'm all for proper gun control laws, but lets also work on getting to the root of the issue.
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Exactly. Banning guns in America is an impossible task, but proper gun control? That's sensible. danr wants to know how you get an AK-47, and that's a good question. The kid probably took advantage of one the off-the-books methods, like a gun show or buying from a private collector, and those situations ARE problems. I have no qualms at all with requiring people to get licenses for firearms, and for all weapons to be registered. You have to take a test and get a driver's license to drive a car, and the vehicle has to be registered with the government, etc. Why not do that with guns? If gun SELLERS were held accountable when weapons get into unlawful/unregistered buyers hands, 19 year old kids would have a hell of a lot harder time getting them.
ban guns! I mean, making pot illegal sure worked. nobody smokes that anymore...
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Yeah, but you can't grow a gun by planting bullets. I can go to my local Wal-Mart and get everything I need to start a pot farm in my garage for under $40, but manufacturing firearms is a bit more involved.
And the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument is just as much a red herring. Well no shit people kill people, that's why we charge the person with murder and not the instrument, but what do you think the death certificate says? "Cause of death: people."
Music, games, gun control really aren't the issue at all here. The coward made a choice. He wanted to go, and wanted everyone to know about it.
I blame McDonalds. DISCUSS!!!
Another thing to think of here. What if there would have been a man in the mall in the vicinity of this young man when the shit hit the fan that had a concealed weapons permit and had his say 9mm glock on him. That may have actually have saved a life or two by having this citizen shoot the attacker in defense for everyone else.
I don't know how many people here have actually held guns, had a gun pulled on them or been in a combat type scenario. I have been in all three. Luckily the coward that pulled the gun on me didn't pull the trigger. You know why he pulled it on me? I confronted him for beating the shit out of his girlfriend whom was one of my wifes friends. He was a tiny little prick of a man and felt tough behind the gun.
People like this kid and gang bangers and other people that have committed acts of violence like this want people to fear them because they are either so miserable in their own lives or have no real friends that they want others to experience their loss and hurt.
This kid wanted to get famous and because of our media blarring his picture and name all over he is. Fuck that. Show the victims photos. Show their families. They are the ones we should hear about and care about. Not this mindless bastard.
Gun control and banning guns is a touchy subject. Banning guns would be the worst thing to do. In my opinion.
Another thing to think of here. What if there would have been a man in the mall in the vicinity of this young man when the shit hit the fan that had a concealed weapons permit and had his say 9mm glock on him. That may have actually have saved a life or two by having this citizen shoot the attacker in defense for everyone else.
I don't know how many people here have actually held guns, had a gun pulled on them or been in a combat type scenario. I have been in all three. Luckily the coward that pulled the gun on me didn't pull the trigger. You know why he pulled it on me? I confronted him for beating the shit out of his girlfriend whom was one of my wifes friends. He was a tiny little prick of a man and felt tough behind the gun.
People like this kid and gang bangers and other people that have committed acts of violence like this want people to fear them because they are either so miserable in their own lives or have no real friends that they want others to experience their loss and hurt.
This kid wanted to get famous and because of our media blarring his picture and name all over he is. Fuck that. Show the victims photos. Show their families. They are the ones we should hear about and care about. Not this mindless bastard.
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QFT
at KeyserSoze , when someone gets killed by guns, the cause of death should say shot by an ahole with no penis.
We should ban Macdonalds as well, that clown is a prick.
The funny part, in a scary kind of way, what I have experienced so far is that people that own guns and have permits or the ones that want them are the people that should never ever be allowed to own them. Why cause they are unstable, egotistical, control freeks who usually want to kill you if they don't get there way. Also can't handle loss, conflict or any kind of discomfort in a healthy way. This is what I noticed. It might be just the awesome jobs I have had since turning an adult though, it has allowed me to meet some of the most awesome and wonderful human beings in my life. Yeah being sarcastic.
Alex
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The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution is not a loophole.
[/ QUOTE ]Its a part of a legal document thats being taken out of context for an exploitative goal. Thats a loophole.
All of the recent massacres I can think of, the shooter used an illegal weapon.
The gun owners that jump through the legal hoops are not the ones committing the crimes. In this case he stole the gun he used. Sure if he didn't have access to it he wouldn't have been able to use it, but he would have gotten it from some other place, or used another means to commit the same crime. Yes the issue of how easily the gun fell into the hands of a psycho needs to be dealt with but the issue of the psycho needs to be addressed also. It's a two part problem and both need to be addressed if you really want to curb the issue.
And that Chris Rock quote is perfect. We tax the hell out of cigarettes and gas, why not ammo?
Alex
A freaking ak 47 what the hell for, those damn deers in the woods, very dangerous, or those giant turtles, freaking serpents, oh I know the damn killer bees that are coming.
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remember, this is a semi-automatic AK-47, this isn't the spray of bullets you see in Iraq, it's pretty much a deer rifle.
The problem is we don't have a decent system set up to really find out if someone is a certified loon.
You can purchase parts for assault rifles in a lot of magazines and build your own so to speak. It's really not that easy. My dad builds guns for a living. He lives in Maine and hunts. All his stuff is legal but he says it's crazy that it is so easy for someone to get a high powered assault rifle.
I could even have a .50 cal rifle built. What the hell would that be good for? Shooting semi trucks? It isn't for hunting yet in some states it is possible to own one. The reason. Target practice.
Now take said person that owns .50 cal for sport and he loses his whole family in a terrible accident and goes a tad crazy. Drinks a lot and just hates life. Said person climbs up to a high location near a large amount of people and starts shooting.
This type of thing has happened before and could easily happen again.
I hope people dont see this as me bashing americans im just giving my vision , and yeah its based on what i see on the news and hear , theres no way i know how it really is, but there is alot of people that think the same way as i do , not that it is correct tho...
honestly that "i must have guns to protect myself" is something i dont get yet. its more "i need a gun in the unlikely event of 1% chance of happening of me beeing mugged or someone kidnaps my family or my neighbour trespasses my lawn , then i have the time to think, get my gun and kill someone, altho lots of domestic accidents happen because of guns."
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The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution is not a loophole.
[/ QUOTE ]Its a part of a legal document thats being taken out of context for an exploitative goal. Thats a loophole.
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You think it's "out of context" because we no longer maintain civilian militias? No way, not at all. If we could get all of our founding fathers here today and ask them if they would willingly turn over their weapons because the federal government is going to take care of the whole military thing, no way do I believe they agree to that. The men that framed the Constitution lived through a war of rebellion against their lawful government, a rebellion that would have been impossible without individual arms ownership. The Continental Army didn't spring forth overnight, and it wasn't just an organized collection of city militias - it was assembled of armed groups and individuals, brought together because they no longer were willing to endure rule by their rightful government.
The Bill of Rights is designed to preserve specific individual liberties, irrespective of circumstance. There is no qualification of context to those rights. You're always entitled to freedom of religion, even if it's some heathen idol-worshiping cult that traditional faiths consider to be blasphemy. You're always guaranteed the right to a trial by jury, even if you're a murdering douchbag and everyone saw your crime on live TV. And you're always guaranteed the right to keep and bear arms, even if you think you don't need a civilian militia, solely and entirely because some day you MIGHT need a civilian militia.
The Bill of Rights was not written to make people free, it was written to keep people free. That people might exploit a given right is not a flaw of the Constitution, but of the state and federal laws that govern those rights.
Considering most gun crimes and all knife crime happen at close range I doubt it makes much of a difference in your ablity to get away. Someone bent on killing you isn't going to stick you and let you crawl off.
"... it was assembled of armed groups and individuals ..." and the French.
Now take said person that owns .50 cal for sport and he loses his whole family in a terrible accident and goes a tad crazy. Drinks a lot and just hates life. Said person climbs up to a high location near a large amount of people and starts shooting.
This type of thing has happened before and could easily happen again.
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I totally can not understand how anyone thinks that outlawing firearms makes the problems go away. Does the VT shooter just sit in his room all day and cry if he can't get his handguns? If he goes out with a knife and kills ten people instead of thirty with a handgun, does that mean the problem is solved?
I'll try to list the significant single-event shooting sprees in US history that have a death toll high enough that they need a firearm to pull off. I've got the UTexas massacre (14 people), Cal State in the 1970s (7), McDonalds shooting in 1984 (21), the original 'going postal' USPS massacre in 1986 (14), Stockton, Ca in the late 1980s (5), Luby's Restaurant (23), Long Island, NY (6), Jonesboro school shooting (5), Connecticut lottery in '98 (5), Ft. Worth Texas in 1999 (7, at a Christian rock concert of all things), Columbine (13), Hawaii Xerox guy (7), Wakefield, Mass (6), Red Lake in Minnesota (7), Wisconsin church shooting (7), Seattle in '06 (6), SLC mall rampage (6), VaTech (32), Crandon, Wisconsin a few months ago (6) and the mall guy we're talking about now (8).
I come up with 191 shooting massacre deaths in the last 40 years in America. Tim McVeigh killed 168 people in a single day with a truck full of fertilizer. We're talking fewer than 5 deaths per year in the last four decades from shooting rampages. 42,000 people die each year in auto accidents.
Maybe someday, somewhere, I'll be in a place where an unstable fucko with a assault rifle starts shooting at me. I could be one of those handful of victims per year. Meanwhile, I get on the freeway and drive 65mph hour with hundreds of other people in shitty winter weather at least twice a day, seven days a week. Which one of these should concern me more?
lesson of the day.. don't shop at malls, i can get all that stuff on the internet delivered to my home or office. people go crazy and do retarded stuff, the more people you have, the more crazies you have, maybe a better solution would be population control. make having a baby more complicated than buying a gun so only smart people can figure it out.
If only.
The problem too is we aren't harsh enough on criminals. Peopel will sit on death row for years wasting tax payers money and shit until their lawyer finds a way to blame their crime on something else. Where the fuck is the accountability these days? Just like with the young Redskins player Sean Taylor that was shot recently. The kids that did it wanted to live a gangstas life with bitches, drugs, guns and money and they killed a guy that had turned his fucking life around and now his daughter will never have her dad again because these guys are ignorant and the shooter wants a plea deal. WHY?
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While a agree that what you brought up is unfortunate as fuck it doesn't have anything to do with how harsh you are on criminals. If the severity of the punishment really worked as a deterrent crime would've dissappeared long ago and we'd all be living in blissfully peaceful police states. Severity of punishment is only going to be something that someone who thinks they are going to get caught takes into consideration. So basically the people that weren't going to commit those crimes anyway are perhaps less likely to, but that doesn't help. This guy killed all these people in the mall with no intention of surviving, same with most spree shooters, so whether or not he's going to be strung up by his balls for days and lashed with glass studded whips is really unimportant. I guess the point is that when people decide to kill someone, they've 1.) passed the point of caring what happens to them afterward 2.)honestly think they can get away with it or 3.)don't have time to think about consiquences. In the case of the guys that killed the football player it sounds like it was a botched robbery, and he got shot after confronting the guys with a machete. I'd say that falls under 2 and 3.
As in humane as this is if you were put to death exactly the same way as you murdered the person or persons you did then maybe you would think twice about doing it. Maybe not.
There are a lot of issues and if you are dead set on killing yourself and taking down people with you it's going to be hard for someone to stop you.
I could easily rent a uhaul and do just the same thing Tim McVeigh did and say drive up to a large office building or a huge festival or even a large apartment building and take out at least 100 people.
Trying to find reason or blame in incidents like this is almost impossible. Why do people do anything they do? Murder and war has been in our nature since our days as cavemen, through the crusades, the world wars and will continue on until our planet is wiped out completely.
It is a sad thing for the familes touched by this tragedy that had to lose a loved one because of this kids ignorance. That is the only thing that should matter here is them.
Meanwhile, I get on the freeway and drive 65mph hour with hundreds of other people in shitty winter weather at least twice a day, seven days a week. Which one of these should concern me more?
[/ QUOTE ]I'd look at that as "life is dangerous enough as it is without someone peppering me with bullets, but whatever. This is something we're never going to meet eye to eye on having grown up in different cultures. The only reason I care greatly about the issue is that I'm likely to immigrate to the US within a year or two and I'd like to survive long enough to add a few more games to my resume.
(maybe i should pre-face this with IMO and i havent read any posts since i posted last but i skimmed and it looks like it's all talk about firearms so screw it..)
these people lack IDENTITY. they are messed up in the head and are looking for something that defines them. this stupid ass country has not established culture (to be proud of). we are a bunch of 'wake up go to work and come home' dicks. we have no traditions or way of life for us to fit into that gives our lives meaning. so we turn to other means to express ourselves.. drugs, alcohol, violence, etc... these people are lost and need direction. they dont have this so they feel hopeless and that their lives are pointless.. yadda yadda... when there is utter hopelessness, disassociation with REAL people and etc then shit like this happens. want another example? look at native american reservation life... take away people's identity, put them in situations where there is no hope and shit happens.. or africa
firearm control only takes firearms out of the equation. it is NOT getting to the root of the problem. if it wasnt firearms then home-made explosives, knife fights, fist fights... this is like limiting car engines to a certain horsepower, it wont stop accidents. BUT.. yes, access to firearms does make it possible for much larger incidents. however, a ban on firearms will NOT solve this much deeper problem with society. throw in how we flash killers' faces all over tv and have them 30 ft tall on outdoor tvs and crap, no wonder these people want to 'go out in style'. would be much better to never mention these dicks and focus on healing people physically and mentally, but then that wouldnt make for good ratings..
and america is a fuckin huge country. i'd like to see some stat comparisons for violence in other areas of the same size, say,ALL of the european union.
this just off the top of my head and a few things ive thought about. im not going to go deeper than this cause i have way too many finals and shit to do and this is the only night i get to 'relax'. my roommate is watching Sailor Moon and im missing out so fuck it, im out.
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Meanwhile, I get on the freeway and drive 65mph hour with hundreds of other people in shitty winter weather at least twice a day, seven days a week. Which one of these should concern me more?
[/ QUOTE ]I'd look at that as "life is dangerous enough as it is without someone peppering me with bullets, but whatever. This is something we're never going to meet eye to eye on having grown up in different cultures. The only reason I care greatly about the issue is that I'm likely to immigrate to the US within a year or two and I'd like to survive long enough to add a few more games to my resume.
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As long as you stay off the roads, I'm sure your move to America would go well. All those cars are seriously dangerous
If I didn't.... I'd be Un-american according to some foreigners..
Seriously though, I grew up with guys like that fktard and its not the guns. Guys like that will go off and rape a chick or stab a few people if they can't get a gun.
Take guns away and everyone will complain that we need knife control. Guns do more dmg, but focusing on the core issue of what drives someone to use violence is what should be looked into.
Take guns away and everyone will complain that we need knife control. Guns do more dmg, but focusing on the core issue of what drives someone to use violence is what should be looked into.
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Yup, you need to address the core issues of why people become spree killers. No doubt. Absolutley.
But like Dan said, how about in the meantime you consider removing easy access to portable machines designed to kill multiple people very efficiently in a short space of time?
Consider, just for a moment, that one reason that many people in the US go on shooting sprees on a regular basis - the core issue, that many people have stated is the be all and end all of the debate - is that they grow up and live in a society psycho enough to have this creepy casualness surrounding guns and their effect. Comparing them in a good light to the cummulative danger of cars, and listing massacres like, hey, its not all that bad in the scheme of things ... no, sorry, that's just too casual for me.
There's a massive difference between shrugging when someone points out which end is the dangerous end, and shrugging when someone shows you which switch flicks it to full auto and how best to hold it while cranking out hundreds rounds a minute, all the better for taking down loads of targets at once. God, does the designed intention of some of these models that you can easily buy in a shop not set just one synapse tingling at the back of the brain? Not one flicker of recognition? And if it does, it seriously worries me when people try and vague the "gun factor" away in favour of stating intent that we should find the REAL problem of why people are mental. Ever strike you that the two aren't disconnected?
america is a fuckin huge country. i'd like to see some stat comparisons for violence in other areas of the same size, say,ALL of the european union.
[/ QUOTE ]How about Australia. We're pretty much exactly the same size. I can't find the statistics for the last couple of years, but in 2004 we had 283 gun related fatalities, 77% of which were suicides. The number of fatalities has been in steady decline since the new gun control measures were added and the government buy up of guns in 1996, and now sits at half of what it was shortly before that year. Something to consider.
Vermillion - those stats you posted up are scary. That is a *lot. Even for percentage of population, that's just too much
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Sure, it's too much. I think any amount of murder qualifies as too much. But a lot? Five people per year? There are more than 80 people killed per year by lightning, and I don't worry about that happening to me.
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Consider, just for a moment, that one reason that many people in the US go on shooting sprees on a regular basis - the core issue, that many people have stated is the be all and end all of the debate - is that they grow up and live in a society psycho enough to have this creepy casualness surrounding guns and their effect. Comparing them in a good light to the cummulative danger of cars, and listing massacres like, hey, its not all that bad in the scheme of things ... no, sorry, that's just too casual for me.
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I don't think you (or anyone) can say what a reason people go on shooting sprees is. Each of these extremely few cases is unique. I mean, if you blame a gun-crazy society without explaining it, that's just as valid as Jack Thompson blaming video games and not explaining it.
Beyond that... again, I'm puzzled at the assumption by Europeans that there is a "creepy casualness" to weapons. America is not a Die Hard film. Let's turn that around a second: I think that Europe is a haven for terrorism. The Basque ETA in Spain, Turkish Hezbollah, the 17 November guys in Greece, and all kinds of paramilitary groups like the IRA and UDF right there in your own United Kingdom. I can't think of one actual domestic terrorist organization in America. You get the occasional one-off nutjob like McVeigh, but a bunch of guys with balaclavas and assault rifles setting off car bombs near busy intersections? Never happened. Shall I assume that Europe is just lazy about terrorism because, as an American, this is what I see in the news every now and then?
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There's a massive difference between shrugging when someone points out which end is the dangerous end, and shrugging when someone shows you which switch flicks it to full auto and how best to hold it while cranking out hundreds rounds a minute, all the better for taking down loads of targets at once. God, does the designed intention of some of these models that you can easily buy in a shop not set just one synapse tingling at the back of the brain? Not one flicker of recognition? And if it does, it seriously worries me when people try and vague the "gun factor" away in favour of stating intent that we should find the REAL problem of why people are mental. Ever strike you that the two aren't disconnected?
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Worried about my synapses, are you? I'm feeling friendly today so I'm gonna let the pedantic bit slide - this is a good topic.
You cannot "easily buy in a shop" any type of fully automatic weapon. Again, I'm assuming this is a misunderstanding from living in different places. In America, you can get guns easy enough, that's true - shotguns, semi-automatic rifles, and handguns. Fully automatic weapons, explosive ordinance, certain types of ammunition... that stuff is not out on store shelves.
I live in a city of more than a million people, in close proximity to both very urban and very rural areas. Also, I'm a pretty knowledgeable guy. I know where I could buy marijuana, probably cocaine. I know where I could get a prostitute (in theory!
I'm going too far with that tangent, I expect, but it's an important point with regards to America's perception by others. Guns really aren't everywhere (unless you live in Texas.)
As to the rest of it, does it strike me that guns and mental disorders are connected? Sure, just as much as it strikes me that video games are connected. They're both very common threads in these sorts of situations, right? If you want to do the correlation = causation thing (young killers have guns!), that means you get to accept all the other equally unproven corollaries (young killers play violent video games!)
Even better, consider this: Guns have been a part of American culture since the beginning, right? We've got two centuries of gun ownership in this country, but we don't have two centuries of teenagers using guns to kill random people. Generations of Americans have lived with shotguns on the wall, old military heirlooms, varmint rifles, target pistols, you name it. My dad's generation grew up int the 1950s, watching cowboy shows with wanton gunplay, day in and day out. But these shooting sprees... well, they didn't happen in the 1940s or 50s, and the one example from the 60s was a guy with a brain tumor. Nope, the shooting sprees really started in the later 70s, picked up steam in the 80s and really became a cultural phenomenon through the 1990s to today. What else started in the 1970s that has become a huge part of American culture today?
Video games.
That's where we go with correlation arguments, and I don't think any of us here feels the need to ban Call of Duty 4. As obvious as guns may be the issue to you, video games are just as obviously the issue to the Jack Thompsons of the world. I don't mean this as a slam, but your holding to your position is the same as him holding to his - focus on a symptom of mental ill health and declare it the cause, without proof and despite evidence to the contrary.
I think America does have a very aggressive culture. I think that's a factor in these sorts of things, and I am not sure how that has come about. But guns are not the cause. Guns don't make me enjoy watching a particularly violent tackle in football, nor enjoy destroying my opponent in Trivial Pursuit, nor driving way to fast on the freeway, nor whipping my best friend at Wii tennis. Americans are an aggressive people, that much I believe. Declaring guns the cause is like declaring video games the cause - it's too simple, it doesn't explain everything, and removing them from the equation still leaves a fundamentally violent character in place.
Long post, apologies for the eye strain.
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Take guns away and everyone will complain that we need knife control. Guns do more dmg, but focusing on the core issue of what drives someone to use violence is what should be looked into.
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Yup, you need to address the core issues of why people become spree killers. No doubt. Absolutley.
But like Dan said, how about in the meantime you consider removing easy access to portable machines designed to kill multiple people very efficiently in a short space of time?
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I'm starting to see what's going on here. Between you and Dan, it's quite clear you Britlanders are trying to disarm Americans so you can take the place back over and tax the fuck out of our tea. No way, pal - I'm going to form a militia according to my Constitutuional rights, just to pop a cap in your imperialist limey arses!.
When you get down to the net result, there's no comparison to be made between the effect of guns, and the effect of cars, games etc. To me, this is pretty plain. Guns are made to kill, there's technology involved on certain models (models you CAN buy in shops) to make them more effective at killing than other models. And then you've got the relative ease of purchase, the rules concerning storage, the relish of ownership (revealed on this very board a few times with the "what handgun is best for me?" threads that we've seen in the past). The way people discuss them, you'd think they were just another household implement, something so mundane and common that they're not really worth special consideration. That's the casuality I'm referring to.
I'm expecting another "that's exactly what JT says about violent games" rebuke here, and I'd get equally frustrated with it ... It ... It ... It's a fucking GUN! Thompson can't prove the effect of a game, but its very easy to prove the effect of a gun. Load it up and point it at something soft. Preferably something soft, pink and with the ability to scream. Basic stuff, no, fuck off, it IS
Honestly, I think the whole gun argument would move to a different level quite quickly if everyone started appreciating them for what they are, and their inherent power. How many other debates run and run over things that are so plainly dangerous BY DESIGN and so very very fucking scary? Not many. Certainly an odd one. Actually its not that odd, its cos you're all mental (green smiley face)
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america is a fuckin huge country. i'd like to see some stat comparisons for violence in other areas of the same size, say,ALL of the european union.
[/ QUOTE ]How about Australia. We're pretty much exactly the same size. I can't find the statistics for the last couple of years, but in 2004 we had 283 gun related fatalities, 77% of which were suicides. The number of fatalities has been in steady decline since the new gun control measures were added and the government buy up of guns in 1996, and now sits at half of what it was shortly before that year. Something to consider.
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population of the United States: 303,545,000 4.55% ranked 3rd in the world for population.
population of Australia: 21,129,222 0.32% ranked 53rd in the world for population.
comparing those two doesnt work so well..
.the US has 14.something times the population of Austrailia. that's why i said the EU. for geographic size and population.
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... well, they didn't happen in the 1940s or 50s, and the one example from the 60s was a guy with a brain tumor. Nope, the shooting sprees really started in the later 70s, picked up steam in the 80s and really became a cultural phenomenon through the 1990s to today. What else started in the 1970s that has become a huge part of American culture today?
Video games.
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Instead of video games I would say the break up of the nuclear family. We split the atom and it blew apart our nuclear famlies. That strong stable ground most American baby boomers had as children is gone, replaced by lack of attention being placed on raising children properly, latch key kids day cares too over burdened to deal with each kid. Not to mention its the norm to only parent a child for the first 5 years then it up to the state and society. You can't read but you're on your own, hope you make it.
I'm all for equal rights and women in the work place but it screwed one of the core building blocks of our society and we haven't figured out a proper work around yet, which we desperately need to. When both parents started to work, more money was coming in, now inflation takes over and everything costs more. Now its not an option to have one parent stay home, both MUST work. Inflation continues to raise but salaries do not, marriages splinter apart because divorce is now the norm and single parents are left to try and fill the money gap by working more. Who's watching the kids, who's guiding their little lives? peers, media and a school system that is not built to handle such obligations.
BRB, have to restock on guns, hamburger meat, and bibles.
The world is going to shit, we're all going to die.
BRB, have to restock on guns, hamburger meat, and bibles.
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Well you are in the uppper midwest. Betcha got a shotgun rack and glass packs on the 4x4 with a big Oakley sticker in the back window and yosemite sam mudflaps.
I'm making a comment on how children are being raised and not a comment about how people need to find God and that kind of thing. So I don't want to hear any posts claiming I'm saying that. As far as I'm concerned it's up to a person if they choose to embrace a religion or if they find God or if they believe or not in such a thing, and they should do it because they feel it, and not be a pack of sheep and do so because it's a tradition or for show like many do.
Hell parents can have social services take their children away just on someones report, no evidence needed. If you give a person what they want all the time and then when they approach a certain age say 16 to 21 and suddenly you want them to be responsible you'll get a person that has no self control, no desire to do so and no respect for others. They'll do what they always do have fits of rage, temper tantrums, etc. While this alone won't motivate someone to go kill a few people and then himself, that fact that the person just acts on emotions doesn't help. Add any other factor to the equation and you get an ahole killing people. If a person is raised with no strong sense of what is right and wrong and isn't held accountable in a healthy manner, you essentially have a pycho. In the worst parts of PR the people there are also in the same kind of circle, no strong sense of what's right and wrong, don't care, lots of violence, nothing to live for, you get the picture. The whole I'm a thug mentality is all over the place in the USA, I have meet kids at jobs that want to be Pimps like it's something awesome. What I noticed is a lot of the USA nothing gets done about this except a lot of bitching about how guns, video games, music are evil and how they are corrupting the youth. So really guns aren't the problem people are. Back in the 90s I can't remember the date it was closer to 95 since I was a senior, the Governor of Puerto Rico was sick and tired of all the gang wars and shit going on, in as we call it, "el punto" so he started using the National Guard to raid the known hot spots. I heard it made the news in the USA. They did this at random all over the island. The other thing that shocks me about the news in Massachusetts for example is that it seems all rosey cosey, it seems to portray and image of perfection. In PR for example shit like a fireman or police officer getting a cat out of a tree is never mentioned in the news because it isn't news worthy and things like violent crimes are just mentioned breifly, mostly to criticize the great work the government is doing. We also hear of what is going on in the rest of the world especially Latin America. There seems to be some kind of censorship going on with the news, in the USA, it might be do to the size of the country, but we never hear anything about what happens to people in Detroit or other states, if they are screwed, we just get lots of fluff, and hardly anything on what going on in the rest of the world.
The interesting thing is that most of the murders that happened in PR were mostly because of gang violence, muggings, but random killings like the ones happening in schools, universities, malls just didn't happen. Yeah you would get killed if you tried to get with someones girl, dealt drugs, or if you screwed with the police.
Alex
Posted apparently "just hours after gunman Robert Hawkins killed eight shoppers in Omaha in the US".
What a tool. I suppose law enforcement agencies have to take these things seriously, if they ignored him and he did go on a rampage they'd be in deep shit for not acting. Although I do find the idea of someone being arrested for spouting depraved bullshit on 4chan.org kind of funny, I thought that's what it was for.
The kids a jackass for posting shit like that. These types of threats are taken very seriously and I think it's a good thing. Better to be safe then sorry.