WIP - T-34 for next gen game
Hello all,
This would be my first post for getting crit, and I'm quite nervous and exciting same time.
Here I'm modeling T-34 (Soviet Union) armoured vehicle, and this is the link on WiKi.
My final goal is to finish this as next gen game model for portfolio, and have a little trouble to finish modeling stage. Since I'd like to use normal map on this model, I'd like to get as solid low poly model as possible I can with max limit of tris... More I spent time with this current stage, higher # of tris I get. So I guess this current model should be consider semi-high poly (57220 tris). High # of them was out of traks and wheels, and I hope to get some advises how to reduce # of tris.
Also here are some more questions...
Q1. What would be maximum Tri # for this type of vehicle for (realistic) next gen game? (assuming this can be used in various LODs, I'd like to know what would be highest # for CU low poly model on game screen)
Q2. What's the spec for textures? (same assumption from Q1; the model will be CU to player)
More questions would be followed, and I hope your fresh eyes will give a right direction for me. Don't mind getting tough crit as long as it is productive on my portfolio, and hope to hear you guys soon.
Thanks for watching.
3/4 front
3/4 front OL
3/4 rear
3/4 rear OL
Side OL
front OL
This would be my first post for getting crit, and I'm quite nervous and exciting same time.
Here I'm modeling T-34 (Soviet Union) armoured vehicle, and this is the link on WiKi.
My final goal is to finish this as next gen game model for portfolio, and have a little trouble to finish modeling stage. Since I'd like to use normal map on this model, I'd like to get as solid low poly model as possible I can with max limit of tris... More I spent time with this current stage, higher # of tris I get. So I guess this current model should be consider semi-high poly (57220 tris). High # of them was out of traks and wheels, and I hope to get some advises how to reduce # of tris.
Also here are some more questions...
Q1. What would be maximum Tri # for this type of vehicle for (realistic) next gen game? (assuming this can be used in various LODs, I'd like to know what would be highest # for CU low poly model on game screen)
Q2. What's the spec for textures? (same assumption from Q1; the model will be CU to player)
More questions would be followed, and I hope your fresh eyes will give a right direction for me. Don't mind getting tough crit as long as it is productive on my portfolio, and hope to hear you guys soon.
Thanks for watching.
3/4 front
3/4 front OL
3/4 rear
3/4 rear OL
Side OL
front OL
Replies
>15000 tris
2048x2048 texture
Extra tiling textures for normal and spec for small surface detail.
Singleplayer PC + one tank at the time
hahahah polycount?
ahahhah texture size limitations?
(not really but you can go nuts)
First of all, spend a day finding all the refs you can handle, just remember to keep the different yearly versions apart or you will have a heartattack trying to model something that looks different in ten different concepts.
I would personally throw in whatever cool shit I would find in those different versions and just note that in the text describing my final model, but it is up to you.
Make sure that you add extra geometry to fix any issues you have with your normals, do a search and you will find the huge thread about normal mapping for more info.
Normalmap those threads, you are wasting an insane amount of tris.
The main part of the body is insanly lowpoly, use your refs and start modeling:
the deeper welds
the groves where the turret meets the body
some proper weird latches and lids that are all over the tank, not everything is flat enough to normalmap
REFS!
Wheel
Two decent ref pics (the 1943 model):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/T-34-76_RB8.JPG
http://www.armour-models.co.uk/images/Lion%20Roar/le35028n.jpg
The second one is just a scale model, but they tend to match quite well with their real counterparts (and it has some cool stuff in the back).
Real images can only show so much whereas scale model images with closeups of details are easier to find...
For the refs, in fact I gathered quite amount already. Yes, I found there are various models and lean over this model. Adding some parts from other models will be followed as necessary for eye candy.
For the base part, I'd say I meant to build it as lowpoly as possible since it will be textured with normal map. Lower part of turret was in my mind to re-buid for long time... Without knowing maximum tris #, I was hesitating to go too far. Maybe my current model is blended with low high, and I guess I need to fix it.
Currently I have model with following specs:
6617 (polys) / 12690 (tris) [Without trak, wheel, and bolt, which will be taken care of by normal maps, I believe it would push me to build quite low poly for trak and wheel parts, right?
pliang: Thanks for advise.
Your awsome portfolio pieces were initiating this project, and I'm glad to hear from you. Only wish I can make mine as half as good yours..
I found dozens scale models that help me to understand structure of the part. However, as I intended to build it as lowpoly as possible, it confused me quite how much detail is enough for the lowpoly. As I read from forums, I may either build 'low to high' or 'high to low' in order to generate normal maps, and making decision for 'which areas (parts) whould be left as low as possible' wasn't easy task for me...
Just wondering, can you tell me how you approach modeling, with considering normal mapping will be used for it?
Small tiny intricate details like my treads I built them with planes and duplicated them then weld it together while using tileable textures then apply normal maps on it.
The tank I built was in fact my first one and I really think my methods has more to be desired.
On the normal mapping part which is what you're more concerned with, I suggest first look at Ben Mathis' normal mapping pipeline, he does wonderful breakdowns on how the work flow should go.
http://www.poopinmymouth.com
Keep us updated...the main thing I would definitely do would removing the excessive geometry on the treads..remember that poly distribution is important as well as how much would you actually see when rendered.
It's not like you're aiming for high def CG resolution.
and nearly 60 000 tris... thats insane, even for a nextgen game. cut it down to 25 000 max, and you're in a safe zone, and add a few LODs, e.g 10.000/2000/500
as for the model, looks to me like a T-34/85.
The wheels also seem in need of proper edge softening...
I probably wouldn't be the best to answer a "correct" poly count for a "next-gen" vehicle. Because the only systems I've professionally developed for are the Wii and PS2.
But... Asking for a poly count is like eating cereal with a fork.
You said you're aiming for a "next-gen" game. You didn't mention what platform you were looking at, what type of game this would be for, and what other things will be seen on-screen at the same time.
If we are talking about a 360/PS3 Tank Sim, where the tank always appears close on screen with only a basic environment. Then you're able to throw some serious polies around.
If we are talking about an FPS, where you may see the tank from close range, but not always, then you're limited to share the polies with characters, environments, props and other vehicles. Then creating LODs for the tank.
But honestly, if you can make a 57k tank look great with only 5k, then you've done a great job. But from looking at your wireframe you have some serious poly density inconsistencies. You've modeled in the bolts, the turret at the top is nice and round with a beveled edge, then you look at the wheels and they are blocky in comparison.
Like pliang mentioned, if it doesn't affect the silhouette then it can be handled by the texture.
That tracks
The comments above are great so I won't go too into detail about how to optimize you're mesh. If I get some time today then I might do a quick paintover on your wireframe screens (if you don't mine that is).
Great start though and its looking great. Just keep at it. Sorry for the convoluted post, but I've been going back and forth while writing this and doing work.
-caseyjones
Due to major scale problem, had to spent quite amount of time to 'house cleaning' yesterday.
Another part dragged me down was, as I saw from other post, 3ds max imageplane setup was quite mysterious;
I precisely set the image size (in 'Pixel') from PS and bring it into max (my current working unit is 'cm'), and applied UVW map with bitmap fit option (I did copy/paste the dimension generated by 'bitmap fit' into the plane.). Although all ortho images has matching length, width, and height, once 'bitmap fit'process was done, it scales randomly. Extra works had to be done (cropping/placement) from material editor, and again minor nudging from viewport... I think I spent too much time for it, but as I was freaked out after found scale isuue, now I am in piece for now.
pliang: Thanks for keeping eyes on my post.
Now I am in stage for working on both low and high meshes since I'd afraid to make my so-called 'low poly' has insane #
of polies.
As I explained above, yesterday was quite rainy day, but at least I managed some highpoly parts for normal mapping.
Traks and wheels were those, and here are some renders;
(1) overview
(2) WIP part lightend
(3) Traks and wheels CU
(4) Steps for trak piece
(5) Different light setup
One thing I'm not clear what 'bolt geometry' is. Does it mean "make bolts' head more rounder", or something else?
dejawolf: yes, it is T-34-85.
I'll make my low poly with around 15k up/down, and that's fo now.
Thanks for input.
caseyjones: Traks were 'poly-monsters.'
Yeah, I forgot to catagorize my goal.. I guess either unreal 2 or 3 would be my goal to use. I was imagining the model will be passing by players pretty close (or be able to ride, alike in BF2 or other FPS), and considering use power of normla mapping for the lowpoly. As I'm aware of other meshes (characters, environment, props, etc.), I'm wondering what would make a final decision for tri # for meshes. I guess I know "Closer to screen, higher # would be given" but wondering what's alike general spec for both console and PC.
With or without mentioning sphecific plateform, what I heard were between 10~25K, and 2k textures... Poly distribution was one of issues brounght from other forums as well, and I'll work on that for sure.
Appreciate forcomments.
Now I am back to modeling...
While I'm not fast modeler yet, I wanted to build this as accurate as possible. More I gathered reference materials, more I needed to change the parts around. Indeed, I found the article identifying difference between various models, and it helped me so much.
Also I had a lot of troubles to model parts right, and some had to be done overnight for themselves. Plus, judging if any given parts would be appropriate for normal map (degree of edges mostly) was not quite easy as I thought in the beginning. Lack of experience was telling the truth, I guess.
So here are some screenshots for "highpoly." First time using VRAY renderer, and it was not as easy as I guessed as well.
It'll be great to hear your crits, and thanks for watching my progress.
As for the normal mapping etc, make sure you softened the edged and hardened them where appropriate to the real model before moving on.
Keep up updated.
Things that are attached, like the rolls/exhaust need to remain separate geometry.
As far as polycount goes - depends on what kind of game it's goin into, and how close up you're going to be able to get to the unit. If it's an RTS game, the unit is almost never going to be close to the camera, and you can cut a lot of it down. If it's a shooter, different story.
It also depends on the number of units you expect etc.. A senior artist would be better able to estimate the number required.
If you're creating a general game-ready model, the lower the count the better, since it will allow more people to utilize it.
Also, the more tris you include, the harder it will be and the longer it will take to uvmap it well.
the airventilation on the top rear of the turret have a sharper split though.
Touching up the corners took quite longer than I thought. Some had to be re-done too.
Acord: Thanks for input. By the way, hose shots (above and below) were "highpoly" purpose. As I was answered in earlier post I got my lowpoly limit around 15K up/down, which will be done soon.
dejawolf: Thank you. With new renderer (Vray), playing around lights were fun~ Oh and vent lid you mentioned has been touched up. Good eye~
Minor update this time.
I was doing 'final touch up' last night, and here are some shots (as 'highpoly') for lit render...
Again, thanks for watching, and will be appriciate for your comments.
So here are some screenshots as highpoly 'semi-final' stage. (need "aging" work in zbrush bit more, I guess.)
Currently working on lowpoly, and it's another huge battle.
Thanks for watching, and looking forward to hear some crits.
Don't crazy over the cracks and bumps either...use a few industrial metal surfaces if you have to.
pliang: Thank you for feedback. I was thinking about how I am going to "ruin" this tank, and yes, mud would be awsome. Gathered some mud reference, and hope to pull it out soon. Currently I got stuck on normal map for traks. Wish to hear your opinions as well.
Hello,
Here is another set of WIP shots.
Traks were daunting me whole day yesterday, and I'm still working on them.
[2nd version of UVs for trak. (Big thanks for dejawolf~) ]
[Quick render with the new UVs]
[Current stratage for tiling (3 sets of both front and back traks were used as 'base' for UVs).]
[Current stratage for tiling with High version]
Since I wasn't using equal size of the face over the entire trak (as I learned from dejawolf's) squashed thread patternes were too obvious. I guess I need to try another shape for lowpoly.
Here are some questions I gathered while I was working last night.
Q1. Using "Render to texture (RTT)" from 3ds Max, which renderer you guys are using? I did both default scanline and mental ray (MR), and MR always serve me better results. Just wondering how you are deal with it.
Q2. (Similar to Q1) What's lighting setup for RTT for normal map? I have a skylight, 4 spots, and 2 onmis, and turning on/off for experiment reason, but not quite clear what I am doing, so here I am.
Q3. For the UV map, I was wondering how much gap is necessary to preserve good normal map (or any other types of baked map). As you may noticed, my current UVs are quite close to 0.0 spot, and I found great amount of 'red' spots (= 'normal' error). It may caused by other factors, but just want to clear about UV part first.
That'd be it for today, and thanks for watching. All feedback will be appreciated~
As for the renders...you can use either one but you don't have to go nuts and use mental ray.