Should I be mad or happy?
I am a student at the Art institute of San Diego California. And throughout the quarters Ive gone here Ive seen some good things produced in unreal 2 under our prototyping class. But today I was told that prototyping is no longer going to be done in unreal 2. To much of my shock and displeasure it is not unreal 3 either but flash.
Should I be mad that the school no longer will teach unreal editor and focus on flash games? I know that there are plenty of good flash games out there and that there is a market out there for flash games, but am I wrong for thinking that flash is last gen and engines like epic's unreal 3 are now and things we at the school should be learning?
Should I be mad that the school no longer will teach unreal editor and focus on flash games? I know that there are plenty of good flash games out there and that there is a market out there for flash games, but am I wrong for thinking that flash is last gen and engines like epic's unreal 3 are now and things we at the school should be learning?
Replies
Flash is good to learn. Lots of freelance work to do with flash. Its also quite capable for quickly animating stuff.
UnrealEd is good to learn to. Sucks your school stopped offering it, but these things happen. Go buy UT3 or roboblitz or Gears of War and learn the Unreal 3 editor on your own time. Go through tutorials and it shouldnt even take you that long to pick up.
The thing about prototyping games is that in flash, you can make an entire game on your own with minimal coding ability. With unreal, you need a badass coder. I assume you're an artist, so stick with learning artsy things and let coders worry about their crazy mods.
Also, flash is not last-gen.
Prototyping class was to create a mod through the unreal 2 engine. Also to simulate a work environment with working in groups and meeting deadlines.
wish i had taken a class on it.
But you will need to understand those tools on your own time anyways in order to master it.
IMO there should be an option to choose what you want to learn ... Unreal is a hell of a lot more relevant for me, at least. I don't believe you can make full 3d in flash
Not sure what your school's policies are like down there, but up here we were allowed to use any engine we wanted. You may want to look into using a game engine despite your school wanting you to use flash. (For instance, one of the guys we just hired from an art institute used source rather than UT).
All that said, if you have to use flash it can be used to make some pretty impressive stuff, so it's not like all is lost. My comments are based soley on my personal experience at AI/the industry. May not hold true for all.
but is prototyping not used to test game-mechanics? games like starkraft could be flash-prototyped couldn´t they?!
in the end YOU have to know what you want.. 3d-editor or web/programming/2dart knowledge
what you don´t get there you have to learn by yourself
Flash is good for web marketing and animations but its not really made for games. Also a game which is made in flash certainly isnt regargeded in the same way as a game made in the unreal engine.
Its a completely different ball game and as such should be taught in its own class instead of replacing a useful one.
If you ask people "whats an amazing game?" do they ever mention a 2D flash game? hardly ever!
This would make me mad >:(
So I recon if you want to learn next-gen 3D game design while at university then you should inform them of this and perhaps they will let you learn whatever engine you like instead.
A course I did a few years ago went to shit and a tutor we had wasn't really teaching us anything. It was a games development course and we weren't even taught anything game specific. We finally complained about it, but a little too late to get any real compensation for it. But hopefully it helped out with the following year's students. I also didn't continue with the course the following year because of that.
But back on topic, to go from a 3D game engine to a 2D vector package is a huge jump. If its prototyping, it all varies on the type of game you're willing to make/prototype. But any type of game that flash can handle, UE2 will be able to handle just as well. But you get the benefit of all the extra game types that flash can't handle, while UE2 can.
If I were you, speak with some of the other students and get their opinions on the matter. If a lot of them agree with you, speak to a course coordinator or someone high up that can help sort this issue out. Especially if its not something you've signed up for when you took the course on.
Good luck, dude.
-caseyjones
I sympathise, but honestly - you're a student, which means.. you have to put up with stupid shit all the time, so why even bother to complain?
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Per you always have awesome shit to say.
It's true academia (it seems in all schools) is constantly doing absurdly stupid shit. I suffered through it myself when going to school. Switch schools, learn flash, or drop out of that class and take something you are interested in. Continue to work with UE2 in your spare time.
[add on]
Oh yeah, money talks, especially at schools, so if a LOT of you complain to the administration and threaten to transfer somewhere else, more than likely they will listen. Get a petition going or stage a mass walk in on the deans open door policy to voice your dissatisfaction. Go kick some ass dude, don't be sad or happy, BE ANGRY!
Get a lot of students together and inform the head of your department how you feel.
If you're going for the core pc & console games industry, then *fuck* flash. You need the engine experience, and that's something Flash isn't going to offer. (Though it does assist scripting knowledge. It offers little to nothing along the lines of 3d graphics.) Maya & Max aren't going to show you how your assets behave in a realtime, and the bugs that might occur that Max & Maya can afford to ignore/don't have to deal with. Coast through the Flash course, and get Gears or Robo for UE3, (UE2 is far more relevant than Flash, even.) for yourself and make a *real* game dev portfolio in your spare time/during class time if you've managed to get ahead.
As a former AI graduate, I can only tell you they pull this shit all the time, and there comes a point where you have to ignore their bullshit filler curriculum where they're trying to cut corners and cheat students out of the education they paid for, and just learn it yourself.
Unreal on the other hand is a super complicated beast, and your learning time is much better spent learning UED.
Flash isn't old news, and learning it can help you get a job (if you are interested in web games), but it certainly shouldn't replace learning Unreal.
Prototyping was never about a protfolio piece regardless of what they may tell you. What it did do well was to teach you about a game pipe line. However UE is a very watered down verson of your average game pipeline, it gave you a sense of how everything worked. I never put anything from my prototyping class in my portfolio, but i did learn a heck of alot from it, which I believe later helped in starting my gig.
The administration at AI more then likely wont listen to you. It might not even listen to any of the local developers advise. Your on the home strech now, finish it up, get your degree, get a job, and pay off the crazy high student loans. Get UE3 this month (this month right? heh) and make some awesome piece with that.
Again really sorry to hear this. Its really sad to see my former school making serious mistakes.
Best of luck man. Hit me up if you need crits or whatever. Peace.
Alex
Prototyping was never about a protfolio piece regardless of what they may tell you.
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Hmm, just like to put in that this is not entirely true. If you get a decent team and treat the class right it can work out great for the 'folio. I know that I got atleast one interview entirely due to our project as well as a job partially from it and our producer got a job almost entirely through it. It's actually still getting us some decent notice now. Doesn't work that way for everyone, but it can be very useful.
...because the art side of flash is very easy to learn on your own....
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Ahhh yes, my career belittled in a single sentence!
I agree that getting jobbed out of UED sucks, but the skills translate beyond the tools. Learning game design is more important than learning a level editor, and if it's still a good design class, you'll benefit.
Unreal is a top notch engine, it costs big money to license it. Normally only companies with serious resources are going to use it, they will also hire high quality talent that comes with years of experience. Lets be real about where you're going to land after school, the chances of landing a job actually working with the unreal engine are pretty slim. As long as you understand the work flow you'll have a rough blue print of how places work. Even then its only how one place/person suggests you work and every place is different. Employers know this and they don't expect you to know every last twist and turn of their pipeline before walking in the door.
I don't mean to be little the learning experience but its easy to get caught up in learning the nuts and bolts, menu's and sub-menus and miss the important aspects they are trying to teach you. Those things are what will translate to every aspect of the industry and will let you carry over your talent to any engine. Chances are you won't be able to put the nuts and bolts knowledge of unreal to any use until after about 2-5years of already being in the industry, by that time it could have changed making what you know obsolete.
Learn the skills that will never go tits up on you...
Just knowing the nuts and bolts of unreal won't land you a job. Lots of people can be taught to use UnrealEd, not very many people can use it well. There isn't a "make map awesome" button and it takes time to get the skills you need, even if they don't come from working with the one editor you're attached to emotionally.
Most employers are looking for the spark of creativity, the drive to see it through and a healthy dose of talent. You can show that in Unreal as well as Flash and a handful of other ways. Just about anyone can play a flash game, on any computer. Don't minimize the effect a playable demo can have on an employer. Especially if its fun. It trumps screen shots any day. What are the chances they'll download your Unreal level, have the software/hardware needed to run it? By removing a large part of the technical learning curve they are actually giving you more time to be creative and giving you more time to make something great.
if enough of us say something - things will change.
I wrote Christian an email regarding this, and he told me to go ahead and repost his response:
<u>My Email</u>
Christian!
I heard recently that the GAD program is getting rid of Unreal for the prototyping class and instead going to Flash. Some of the concerns have been expressed at polycount, over at http://boards.polycount.net/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=245984 . My biggest question is whether or not this was because of a lack of teachers? Or perhaps there was another reason or it? Ive heard that the LA schools are using a GameWizards class that more or less makes up for the prototyping experience, but I am curious if the SD school is going to follow suit, or simply do away with Unreal Prototyping?
Either way, we were really curious. A few of us old schoolers were pretty concerned that this would really put a damper on the students education, and were wondering what direction the GAD program is taking instead?
************************
Donald B. Ott
Associate Prop Artist - High Moon Studios
dott@highmoonstudios.com
http://www.donaldott.com
<u>Christian's Response:</u>
Hey Don,
hmm, I'm not sure what the rumor is, we're not removing Unreal at all....I'm moving forward with getting Unreal 2008 installed and we'll continue to use Unreal for the foreseeable future. I think the students got a bit confused, we're considering using flash for the next prototype...but only because I'm a little worried about the prototypes looking a bit dated with the older Unreal engine....but that hasn't been decided yet. Sounds like the students are getting all worked up over a rumor, that I didn't know about. Even if we use Flash we will be moving toward something in 3D that will provide the usual quality of portfolio props, assets etc. that we usually produce....no "whack a mole" prototypes. We haven't decided yet. The students can let Myself, Asa or Wei know what their preference is though...that would help more than making up their own story
You can post this on polycount if you want, should fill everyone in for the time being. Thanks.
Christian
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So it seems like all is well for now. Next time, email the people that make decisions and find out for yourself for sure
While I think the school could easily switch to UT3 and it would benefit even more. Even if it was only roboblitz it could be some really cool stuff.
We will see. I know my time with UT2004 at AISD helped me get a grip on UT3 stuff which led to my current job at Midway.