Was armor in oblivion zbrushed? (pics)

buddikaman

Im trying to learn high res normal mapping, i have a low poly character in full armor and i wanted to jack him to high res, similiar to oblivion armor. The problem is when i imported into zbrush as a whole everything smooths out as i increase subs.. So can someone please explain the process of how i could go about making for example the deadric armor in oblivion? Did they add that detail with photoshop normal maps, in 3dsmax, or zbrush, or what?

Oblivion


My guy


THANK YOU!!

-Buddikaman-

SuperOstrich

There are a few tricks that help you retain edges and volume when importing a low poly model into Zbrush. They aren't perfect solutions, but they can help.

The process I use the most is:

1. import low poly obj into Zbrush
2. subdivide two or three times.
3. Go back to the first level and re-import the low poly obj.

You should see the low poly at this stage pop back into your original obj's shape and volume, the subdivisions you created earlier will now retain more of that shape and volume.

jgarland

Some pieces of the armor were likely created using ZBrush, while others were probably created using regular subdivision modeling.

It can be very hard to create hard, crisp surfaces in ZBrush, or any sculpting application, for that matter. For this reason, most artists still model their armor traditionally, and add smaller details as an afterthought in the sculpting application of their choice.

Per created a great series of mini-tutorials a while back on hard-surface modeling (and other techniques). Check it out here.

Edit: SuperOstrich would know better than I. Do what he said first, as I'm much more comfortable with Mudbox. The tutorials still might be worth a look, though.

Daz

Cool tip SuperOstrich.
Anyway, I highly doubt those normals above were generated from high resolution models. The hard edges within the pieces are a bit of a sign. rawkstar would know for sure, since he did some freelance for them for the expansions. His stuff is way nicer than their own though.

I actually wouldn't look too closely to Bethesda for what to do with normal maps If I were you. Oblivion has some of the worst normal maps Ive even seen in a game, and for the most part they're certainly Photoshop generated, as opposed to from high polygon models. Their implementation in Oblivion tends tends to be more as surface detail like bump, than for their true purpose, which is to improve how light bounces off of models and make them look higher polygon than they are.

Here's my current workflow for something like your model that you've posted above:
Build game model, UV.
Duplicate, spend 15 minutes prepping that version for Zbrush. That includes: turning into predominantly quads, adding edge loops at the ends of cylindrical shapes (as in subd modeling) to force them not to round off (as you describe 'everything smooths out'. *edit* although SuperOstrich's tip might somewhat negate the need for this step).
Subdivide that model once to quadify it, export to Z and sculpt away.
Spit model out of Z and into Maya, generate normal maps to apply to my in game model.
Most people tend to always start with the high poly, but we have a highly complex swappable parts system that has to all fit together, so I'm forced to work backwards. It works pretty well for me though.

buddikaman

Ill try that, thanks. For most part do you think most high res models these days are made in zbrush, or is there an exeption, like are some things better to model out high res(like armor) in 3dsmax ect. And i know there is also a way to make normal maps in photshop, im really confused on this... Zbrush just seems better for organic modeling, than round sharp smooth objects???

-Buddikaman-

Daz

Most people could probably make a hard surface, tightly beveled and controlled form like a pauldron a lot quicker as a subdivision model using traditional techniques in a 3d app. than by sculpting it. *edit* Which is basically what jgarland just said.

buddikaman

Yea i just used oblivion as an example, a better concept would be UT3 engine stuff, heres a pic.



My person guess would be some of that was made in zbrush but most was subD in max or maya, any ideas?

-Buddikaman-

PolyHertz

Alternativly, if using zb3 under the geometry tab turn off smt and it'll only add geometry to your mesh each subdivision instead of smoothing it out (sub-d it up a few levels with it turned off, then turn it on to get slightly round edges).

As for The gears of war stuff, its hard surfaces were done in max.

Daz

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any ideas?

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Well yeah, exactly what we've been talking about the entire thread! Generally, organic stuff is easier in a sculpting app, hard surface easier using the traditional subdivision method. Look at the density of his arm compared to his gear.

doc rob

The Oblivion stuff was mostly done with the photoshop filter according to some Bethsoft folks I met at an IGDA meeting. That particular Gears model was straight up subD, I believe. According to what I know, there's no Zbrush going on in either of the images you posted in this thread.

But, guess what? That doesn't mean that's how you should be doing it. You should be listening to the other comments in this thread about what some good techniques are, and then learning how and when to apply those techniques to different situations.

Bethsoft didn't use Zbrush because they don't necessarily always make the best decisions about how to make character art. Epic didn't because that model was done like 5 years ago (they used Zbrush or Mudbox on some other Gears stuff, I believe).

buddikaman

I wouldnt even know were to begin unwrapping that gears model posted above.... I appreciate the replys, im trying really hard to get caught up with the technology as of now im kind of stuck in the low poly world. All advice is appreciated. Im actually leaning towards environment art more now, altough i have some characters id like to normal up.

Question- Im pretty familiar with the basics of UE3, but as environment art goes, is most of the surface detail normal maps done in photoshop as opossed to being modeled out than normaled? Such as this scene..



Im guessing the statues were zbrushed, and the majority of surface textures was photoshop normaled, and another newbie question, for scenes like this in UE3, how much is created using the actuall shapes in the editor, like are the buildings basic 'shell' created in UE3, than the more complex stuff added as static meshes, or is pretty much everything made in 3d program as a static mesh, im wanting to work on my UE3 environments and try to make some great architecture stuff, can someone lay it down for me?

-Buddikaman-



-Buddikaman-

Daz

Your high poly source model doesn't need UV's for the generation of a normal map.

Jeremy Lindstrom

This is how I do my zbrushedness. I bring in the model and create a morph target then subdivide a couple times and then switch back to the morph target, keeps the bulk of the model..

here's a tut with it in there;
http://www.game-artist.net/forums/vbarticles.php?do=article&articleid=53

SuperOstrich

Dekard, that's essentially the same thing that I posted above. The result is identical.

JordanW

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Question- Im pretty familiar with the basics of UE3, but as environment art goes, is most of the surface detail normal maps done in photoshop as opossed to being modeled out than normaled? Such as this scene..


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It's generally a good Idea to create a high poly mesh for everything. Unless it's something very generic like a dirt ground, or grass. PS normals are still used to apply really fine cracks and pits.

Joseph Silverman

Why do you keep asking about zbrush in images so old the art would have most likely been made before zbrush was released?

JKMakowka

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Why do you keep asking about zbrush in images so old the art would have most likely been made before zbrush was released?

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Uhh, wasn't DOOM3 (which is really old by now) already a game that was build with lots of work done in (an really early version of) Zbrush?

Joseph Silverman

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Why do you keep asking about zbrush in images so old the art would have most likely been made before zbrush was released?

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Uhh, wasn't DOOM3 (which is really old by now) already a game that was build with lots of work done in (an really early version of) Zbrush?

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No idea, really, but I'm fairly sure that nothing epic was doing for ue3 demonstrations had zbrush available.

Slash

Zbrush(2?) was used for doom3. And it was also used to create gears of war assets. (or, ue3 demonstration assets as they first appeared as..)