Squirrel - advice

foxdog

Hey, all. This is my first post here. I've heard this is the spot to go for harsh, but helpful crits. I'm working on a high poly (turbo-smoothed) squirrel to rig up for animation, but I've come across parts of the anatomy that are difficult for me to understand the contours of. Below are screenshots of where I'm at.

http://www.screencast.com/users/Foxdog175/folders/Jing/media/1116bb66-4359-4d27-9c31-6e762815d502
http://www.screencast.com/users/Foxdog175/folders/Jing/media/be7ba520-9c5d-4d95-98e8-7a05f1822388
http://www.screencast.com/users/Foxdog175/folders/Jing/media/f98cdcb0-5b7d-4607-9f7a-1a37765e5ca8

I spent about an hour on the majority of the model and then another 2 hours modeling and remodeling the legs. The position he's in is sort of a tricky one to model as all of them are sort of coiled up. Could you guys give me some tips on how I can accurately model the legs? An overall crit on my progress would be appreciated as well.

Thanks!

Steve Schulze

If you want to understand the squirrely anatomy better, you could hunt down a squirrel skeleton, I'm sure there'll be a handy photo on the net somewhere.
Heres a nice clear one. Its on Geocities so I probably can't link it directly.
http://www.geocities.com/abeisaw/BonePics/SkeletonExplorer.html

foxdog

I actually found the same image a few hours ago. I think the legs are a little better now, though front legs still need more work.

http://www.screencast.com/users/Foxdog175/folders/Jing/media/3865d765-0f63-4d4f-94b4-2e3bc6195e61

fogmann

I would suggest skipping the turbosmooth for now and focusing on getting a solid low poly mesh first. In your first screengrab where you show the low poly, it doesn't seem like you have enough polygons to define the shape of the squirrels, so smoothing it out will not help you with that. Better show us the low poly mesh, then we can let you know if your edge loops aren't flowing as they should. For instance, now that you added toes to the feet, it looks like you terminated toe edge loops in a strange way, whereas most of them should continue flowing along the feet, legs and then onto the body. And since this model is to be rigged and animated, you also need enough edge loops around the areas where joints will go, and on smoothed model it's hard to make a judgment on how well those areas will deform, as I would assume you will bind and animate your low poly mesh, and apply smooth before rendering.

foxdog

http://www.screencast.com/users/Foxdog175/folders/Jing/media/9899d9e9-9b38-4761-829c-d2a07af6df18
http://www.screencast.com/users/Foxdog175/folders/Jing/media/ffc416de-49e7-4efe-bde9-c4c8dcc5cd21

What I ended up doing was just connecting edges at the toes and extruding by poly. Bad? Aside from this, I've given the eyesockets and mouth many goes, but it never looks correct at *all* with the turbosmooth applied. I think I can get the main body down for the most part, but the small details are difficult to get down. Should I just be adding a few loops around the head to form the contours of the eyesockets?

DarthRevanII

unfortunately Foxdog, I have bad news for you

It looks like to me that you've modeled the Squirrel in a defined, solely one pose. It might work out, but I can almost guarantee you it won't animate

The legs were the biggest clue to me for that. The way you have it, it's modeled strictly on a vertical and horizontal basis, and no diagnol. In order to fix that, you have to make diagnol edge loops coming from the front crease of the elbow to the back of it...here's a paintover to kind of help explain what I mean

*IMAGE DELETED*

I did it in paint so excuse the low quality :P, also I tried to outline my edges in orange and pink to kind of show what I did compared to yours. Anyway I wouldn't follow the edges to the T because they could be done better probably (and require more of editing the model), but you can see what I'm talking about. If you do that it'll make your highpoly look a lot better, and also give your model a better chance for animation. Also I added an extra edge loop on the neck for animation, because if the head turns a great degree from how the model is now, it might cause a huge distortion in the model, depending on the angle, but I wouldn't say that that part is totally important, but either way

Steve Schulze

Darth, while the structure of the mesh does need to be modified for good animation, a lot of the edges you've suggested, particularly those on the hind legs, don't make a whole lot of sense. Triangles are something you generally want to minimise in a mesh thats going to be subdivided too.

As Fogmann suggested, build up your base mesh some more, considering muscle and bone structures. You'd probably be better off modelling him in a more stretched out pose as if he was leaping with his tail trailing behind. It'll allow for better limb deformation.

DarthRevanII

Jack as I said in my post, I wouldn't follow those guidelines I made either...I just made a quick paintover to show what I meant. Personally I think his model lacks proper edgeloops, and is too blocky. He doesn't have any diagnol edgeloops to add form and structure to his model, which is what I was trying to get at.

Unless I could have remodeled the squirrel for him, there was really no better way I could have shown what I meant, without making something in max

foxdog

Wow. I really appreciate the feedback and taking it into to paint for better explanation. This is a lesson for then. You're saying that when modeling for animation, you should always stretch the limbs out to better define the body structure? Never model the body in a seated pose if you're intending to animate?

The edge loops you created confuse me a little bit though. Could you give me a quick explanation on why the diagonal edges are so important from an animation standpoint? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that the polys need more bending room. I was under the assumption that the high poly mesh would help with that - or would that just make the already bad low-poly worse...

DarthRevanII

heh...maybe the paintover I did really deserved more time put into it. I'm going to go ahead and take it down because the lines I made really are stupid

You are correct in understanding that a model intended for animation should not be created in a "unrelaxed," or as you said, seated position.

Go ahead and keep doing what you are doing and listen to the other polycounters, I'm on break at work tonight and have stuff to do later, but I'll try and make a better paintover, or just create something small to show you what I mean.

I'm really afraid to say much more because I dont want to confuse you any more than I have, but hopefully later I can better explain and show what I'm talking about, or maybe another polycounter can get to you before I do

foxdog

That would be great to get another go-over of your explanation. If you still have plans to do it, would you on my latest low poly version a few posts up?

DarthRevanII

Alright, so it won't look like it, but I spent about an hour and a half working on this model, rigging it, and looking for references. I really hope this explains what I was talking about, and maybe you'll see what I mean...Hell, if you want, I'll go ahead and send the max file over to you, and you can play around messing with it in low poly and turning on turbo smooth, because I'm not really sure if these pictures will be helpful enough. If you decide to do that, just be sure not to use my model, or model over it :P. I can guarantee you this model isn't exact to a squirrels leg in width, mostly just concentrated on the side port


In fact, this kind of shows me I need to work on animal organic models, cuz i had no idea how an animals front leg really works and connects to the body . Plus I don't know squirrel anatomy :P

There is the model I got so far, pretty basic leg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a32/SpartnII/2lawlb.jpg
There's a wireframe to show you what I got, and how I did the edgeloops on the elbow. The way I worked it, is I kept the flow of the model going from the shoulder through to the hands. The edge loops slowly rotate and curve towards his hands, and doesn't have a boxy effect to it.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a32/SpartnII/2lawlbc.jpg
Heres another couple renders in one, the leg was rigged to a three-bone model structure, and posed in different positions. As the elbow moves and everything, it still sort of flows with the model and helps the shape define. This would have been hard to animate and finagle around without the edgeloops modeled with a natural flow of organic geometry.

Last but not least, turbo smooth applied to the model (everything has the same smooth group though) and works great with the bone structure! IT even has a cool crease in the elbow, just like how ours work . You can even see the distinct "point" in the elbow appear on the left render, which ALSO helps in the shape of the squirrel, which appears from, you guessed it, the flow of edgeloops .

Anyway I hope this helps, and once again, if you other polycounters don't think my reference images are helpful, please say so asap. Even though I feel I have a lot of knowledge, I do *not* want to try and pass off bad habits to another

Something I noticed, however, from searching for all the reference images. The squirrels legs are generally pretty thick in fure, and a lot of definition isn't noticed (as opposed to how your model, and mine are made). The way you have it is fine, however, if you want a more realistic looking squirrel, might want to check your references. For all I know, some may be furrier than ohters, and yours could be just fine


Once again hope this helps, enjoy! Let me know if you want to get your grubby hands on the max file (if you use max anyway?)

foxdog

Thanks a million for going to this length. I'm still understanding Why edgeloops are created where they are and that will come from experience, trial & error, etc. I'll continue working on my own squirrel. I'd also love to take a look your max file so I can play around with it a bit...cutting some of those polys out and adding different edges in to get a better idea. My email is [email="foxdog@mac.com."]foxdog@mac.com.[/email]

Thanks again.

DarthRevanII

file sent, some more info in the e-mail. Let me know if you didn't recieve it or can't open it