EA could just be the worst offenders of releasing unstable products (at a premium price) and relying on patches to finally bring it together a year or so after the release. Battlefield 2 is a great example of this, I don't think I've ever had to install a patch to fix what the last patch fucked up on any other game.
HAHAHAHA... that was awesome! I'm glad he threw that bit about BF2 at the end. So true. BF2 was easily the most enjoyable FPS I've ever played...when it worked, or wasn't waiting to be patched. But having the same damn bug, what I called "red friendlys", since the demo in the game at least a year later was the last straw. Eventually I gave up trying play it.
EA is probably the best example of why I love Valve and Steam so much for PC gaming. They release when it's ready at a reasonable price, and fix issues with no extra effort on my end.
lol, awesome. He stated much of what I've been saying for a long time. What they are doing (IMO) is selling the game when it reaches a playable status and hits the development deadline. Then they use the profits from sales to pay for completing the game.
Meh, don't like it don't buy. It's called free market you tool. He should be getting mad at his own dumb ass for repeatedly buying the products. Not EA for selling them. They aren't *forcing* him to buy them, and he's welcome to show his feelings towards them with his wallet.
Considering EA Sports has exclusive rights to the NFL and NFL Players Association trademarks, the "free market" argument doesn't quite work. Personally, I was a pretty big fan of SEGA's NFL 2k series (ever since EA refused to support the Dreamcast and SEGA took matters into their own hands), but they haven't been able to make an NFL licensed game for the last couple years now thanks to EA.
Keyser, there are other football games, some of which feature NFL players if you are that crazy about it being an NFL game. What about 2K Sport's new one? And it is still 100% freemarket driven. The NFL saw people buying EA Sports games, made a partnership with them because of this. Now people continue to buy EA Sports games, NFL continues to gain from the partnership, as does EA. If people don't like it they will stop buying the games, demand will go down, NFL and EA will stop making money, partnership will end. See, still working fine.
In reference to BF2, note that one patch cocked the game up so badly you actually needed to reinstall and put on the next patch.
Oh, and then there was the shit of needing a few gigs free to install the damn patch, and it would default to the C drive with no easy way to get around that.
Anyone that talks about the free market here is making a very big mistake.
The idea of consumer choice as the tool that drives the market is a load of crap. In addition to the obvious aspect here, that EA owns exclusivity rights with the NFL, there's the fact that a AAA sports game takes millions of dollars to create and market. Its not a "free market" when a user only has a choice between two games, one of which doesn't even include the NFL. It would be a "free market" if a number of NFL games existed, or at least football games. But they don't.
Saying "don't complain, just don't buy Madden" would be akin to saying "I don't like your toilet paper and you charge too much" if there was only a single toilet paper maker available. You can use paper towels, but your ass will burn, or your hand, which may make you stink.
The fact is the only reason we don't consider this a monopoly is because it is just one aspect of the game industry. But that is certainly what it is, a monopoly, and anyone that says a free market can function in a monopoly hasn't passed their highschool grade economics. EA has monopolozed this corner of the industry, which, not coincidentally, is extremely lucrative and easy to monopolize; don't sit back and say "duuur what a dumb idiot, he should just stfu and not buy EA games," when EA's games themselves are indefensible (you can't deny anything the guy said). If more people spoke out against EA, vocally, yes if we all flooded YouTube with protest videos against Madden, its very possible THEN, and only then, would EA actually feel any heat. But the idea of a free market here is a load of crap and really only helps EA, because the wonderful corporate world has fooled people into the notion of a free market and complicity.
The free market is a great tool when it exists, but saying the free market exists in the software and console game industry is extremely ignorant.
Prof, I'm not going to try to explain it all here, but it may be time you look into your free market economics. EA got to where it is in a free market, no government hand outs, no illegal operations, etc... It is therefore the product of the free market. So yep, free market at work.
As for competition, the NFL is not the only thing there is to football, nor is Madden the only football game. In fact, the next best selling game is NCAA or something similar, also by EA, and it does well for itself. Which proves that there is room for other football games. The fact is that EA is making and marketing football games better than anyone else. For that, the largest football league approached them. That is all free market at work. Bitch about it all you want, the masses have voted with their dollar and are proving you wrong. (And it is in no manner whatsoever a monopoly. If you think it is I question how you passed high school at all).
On a side note, I've bought many EA games, and have never found them to be lower quality than any similar companies games. All this EA bashing is ridiculous. People need to lay off it for a while.
Yeah I gotta say that EA bashins is a bit crazy. Tulk is right about NCAA doing well. It's a fun game too when i play with some of my "sports" minded friends. The problem here is that a lot of artists per say aren't really jocks as well so they tend to not like sports games.
I love sports and love sports games. Does Madden have it's issues? Sure as shit does but EA is the publisher. Tiburon made the game. Just like DICE made BF2.
You guys take to the streets with your fire torches and pitch forks all so easily. I have played the other football games and they just don't have the depth that madden does. NFL teams or players doesn't matter to me but the whole draft class from NCAA, the superstar modes and the pretty smooth online play is awesome.
They have to be doing something right or they wouldn't be selling so many copies each year.
Jesse: part of that is just due to the position they have as a publisher now, though. They have a bit budget to spend on marketing, and they use it well.
And even if that would suddenly fall away, they'd still have the benefit of name. I don't think the public at large is going to hear any of these complaints any time soon, and if they see Madden or NFL slapped onto a product, they'll be a lot more likely to buy it over another less familiar product.
It's a free market, but the average gamer isn't know for being picky, and most likely doesn't even read (expensive) gaming mags which could warn them when a game's not up to scratch.
The average consumer buys a $60 high tech game expecting it to work. The idea of "if you don't like it, don't buy it" doesn't work, because...well, you have to play the game first before you realize it's broken. And that's why we have marketing. Even if it sucks...it'll sell. And yes EA is only the publisher. Publishers set the deadlines, build the hype, and place it on the shelf.
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Prof, I'm not going to try to explain it all here, but it may be time you look into your free market economics. EA got to where it is in a free market, no government hand outs, no illegal operations, etc... It is therefore the product of the free market. So yep, free market at work.
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You obviously don't understand what a free market is, then.
Just because EA has arrived where they are without illegal operations does not mean it is a free market now, which is what you don't seem to understand; just because the free market brought something about does not mean the market remains free. There are exceedingly high barriers to entry, few if any alternatives (most controlled by EA, and no direct NFL alternatives), and an absolutely indomitable marketing machine. The 2K sports NFL games before Exclusivity pounded Madden critically, and by the second year of $20 games, was threatening it in sales; coincidence that EA received exclusive NFL rights? Is that a free market? No, of course not, that's coercion, exaggeration of quality, outright lying, as far as marketing goes. To call EA, and specifically Madden, a product of the free market is incredibly naive.
[ QUOTE ]
That is all free market at work. Bitch about it all you want, the masses have voted with their dollar and are proving you wrong. (And it is in no manner whatsoever a monopoly. If you think it is I question how you passed high school at all).
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Again, I think you misunderstand, or have been indoctrinated with a certin idea, of what the free market is and how it functions. You cannot have a free market where sports games, specifically football, is concerned, under present conditions. Now not only is there a high barrier of entry, it is almost an impossible market to enter, because you cannot acquire NFL rights. You can have the best football game ever, but with EA's marketing grip and NFL exclusivity rights, you will never be able to compete. The free market doesn't run on marketing, it runs on product. Right now, EA's dominance relies solely on marketing; you can hardly have a dominant product from eliminating rivals and fooling people and then say it is the free market. The entire free market concept is questionable in the corporate conglomerate world, and certainly in a micro-market such as this its a completely false concept.
You're all good consumers. You really believe in your power of the dollar and that complaints are pointless... wow. I suppose we shouldn't criticize government either and just vote every 2 years? I guess you think that if enough people complain EA still won't do anything? 20,000 people who vocally complain, launch petitions, reach out to people about alternatives to EA games, etc., are much more effective than 50,000 or 80,000 people that don't buy EA games and keep their mouths shut about it out of some naive notion that the "free market" will run its course. The "free market" may well run its course but at this point it is so FUBARed only a moron or a millionairre would suggest it will magically correct itself.
Couple things on BF2.
-EA didn't develop it.
-Yes, it was buggy and very hard to bug fix. I could get into details.. but.. haha why bother.
I'm not sure if EA games are "more buggy" than others. I know EA seems to stick to its deadlines and ship dates, and that probably leads to titles being booted out the door sooner than later. But it all comes down to money. Dev budget, estimated sales, marketing budget, all work into a complex formula, as to when a game should be on the shelf. Pushing back a game 6 months to bug fix, is sometimes just not a financially viable option.
That being said I hate playing a buggy POS as much as the next person. Are games getting better in terms of quality control these days, or worse? I dont know
Despite all the issues BF2 had I still love and play it when I can. People will find bugs in all games. The super crazy jump in halo 2 is one that comes to mind. Hiding in walls in Socom was another. Every game has glitches.
Is EA right for the exclusive rights to the NFL? They also have rights to Lord of the Rings as well I believe but they lost the rights to MLB.
Same can be said about any "licensed" toy, movie merchandise, etc.
Not just any toy company can go and make Halo figures. McFarlane has the license now and hopefully he will turn out some awesome toys.
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the NFL actually approached EA, not the other way around.
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I never claimed otherwise... it doesn't really matter who approached who, the fact remains that for the past three years, EA has had the only NFL videogame on the market. That doesn't leave much choice when it comes to an NFL fan wanting to play a videogame featuring his favorite team, does it?
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Keyser, there are other football games, some of which feature NFL players if you are that crazy about it being an NFL game. What about 2K Sport's new one?
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2K Sports' new title is called "All-Pro Football 2K8"... it contains NO current NFL players; it contains NO real NFL teams; it has NO association with the NFL whatsoever.
I know some people enjoy any kind of American football: the CFL, college ball, arena football, or whatever. I personally only have any interest in the NFL, because I happen to be a fan of an NFL team (the Oakland Raiders). Therefore, I have no interest in buying an NCAA game, or a Blitz game, or a game that features Joe Montana and Marcus Allen playing for the Memphis Unicorns or the Tallahassee Butterflies.
I like playing out my favorite NFL team's season and getting to play the same schedule as the real team against the same opponents; I like playing exhibition games against my team's rivals and other NFL teams I despise (which, as a Raider's fan, is a pretty long list); I like to get a good solid hit on LaDainian Tomlinson, and then maybe try to hit him again after the whistle to prematurely end his season (again... I'm a Raiders fan, that's how I roll ).
I also like to play either as the Green Bay Packers or the Denver Broncos. I never got into NCAA because I don't watch college football but yeah getting to lay hits on L.T. is great!
well if it was a cancer drug that you bought and it didn't quite work, you would be well pisssed off. I hate it when games don't work properly, free market has fuck all to do with it. a product on sale should work properly. I am surprised there have not been more legal actions against game companies
Well, if anyone on these forums can truthfully say they've made a bug free game I will agree to your point Ruz. However, I feel pretty confident that's not true, because I do not know of a bug free game in existance.
Madden's getting great reviews all around right now. If it was as bad as this video claims, that would not be.
software hardly ever is bugfree, it is just too hard to achieve, humans make mistakes as simple as that. And with high complexity in software it is insanely hard to find those, and not all can afford an army of testers. Coding for several years now, it always amazes me how bugfree most software we use actually is
the only kind of software that gets insanely tested and checked is controling stuff for say flight control, aviation... but then very often the software is broken in very small independent modules and "easier" to get each part robust. All that costs insane money, but well if you are boeing or airbus you can shell out a bit more than the average game studio
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a product on sale should work properly. I am surprised there have not been more legal actions against game companies
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I'd be far more willing to apply this to other products than games. Often in games, bugs are unfortunate coming together of certain events that QA haven't come across or been able to replicate (you can only fix a bug with the relevant debug info). Others are last minute mistakes, the fixing of which can fuck up the whole release process on which many are depending, but a call is made that the player can still get full enjoyment from the game, even if the bug is encountered. Most gameplayers can live with that
On the other hand ... The other night we decided to have a barbecue. We had all the food prepared,self- marinaded chicken, prawns on skewers, that sort of thing. It was a nice evening for once, it was going to go down a storm. So I broke out the charcoal. The sainsbury's homebase self-lighting charcoal. Self-lighting being something it singularly failed to do. Barbecue didn't happen, it all went in the oven. This wasn't a bug. This was shit design, and a belief that once the product left the shelves, that was their responsibilities discharged. So what if we didn't design it properly? Its sold. Fuck em
This was the same company from which I once bought a shower curtain rod. Upon putting it up (following instructions to the letter) I quickly realised it would not and COULD not support its own weight, let alone that of a shower curtain.
At least with games, console games especially, testing is a requirement
The ones deserving lawsuits are PC games with shitty "copy-protection" rootkits-- especially if you've been running x64 any time in the past few years. Oh sure, "companies have a right to protect their product" (from being played by legitimate users, more like), I could live with that if I could return the damn thing. But oh, it's been opened! I must be a l33t h4xor stealing games! Damn right I am, the only way I can get shit to work without risking hard-earned cash on a 50/50 gamble is by downloading it.
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Damn right I am, the only way I can get shit to work without risking hard-earned cash on a 50/50 gamble is by downloading it.
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lol haha my thoughts exactly... i don't remember the last pc game i purchased. I don't really play any either though but i will be there opening day to pickup UT3.
!
Replies
EA could just be the worst offenders of releasing unstable products (at a premium price) and relying on patches to finally bring it together a year or so after the release. Battlefield 2 is a great example of this, I don't think I've ever had to install a patch to fix what the last patch fucked up on any other game.
EA is probably the best example of why I love Valve and Steam so much for PC gaming. They release when it's ready at a reasonable price, and fix issues with no extra effort on my end.
Funny shit though.
He makes a good point, but a lot of games get released this way and he probably buys the majority of them.
It's called free market you tool.
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Considering EA Sports has exclusive rights to the NFL and NFL Players Association trademarks, the "free market" argument doesn't quite work. Personally, I was a pretty big fan of SEGA's NFL 2k series (ever since EA refused to support the Dreamcast and SEGA took matters into their own hands), but they haven't been able to make an NFL licensed game for the last couple years now thanks to EA.
Oh, and then there was the shit of needing a few gigs free to install the damn patch, and it would default to the C drive with no easy way to get around that.
The idea of consumer choice as the tool that drives the market is a load of crap. In addition to the obvious aspect here, that EA owns exclusivity rights with the NFL, there's the fact that a AAA sports game takes millions of dollars to create and market. Its not a "free market" when a user only has a choice between two games, one of which doesn't even include the NFL. It would be a "free market" if a number of NFL games existed, or at least football games. But they don't.
Saying "don't complain, just don't buy Madden" would be akin to saying "I don't like your toilet paper and you charge too much" if there was only a single toilet paper maker available. You can use paper towels, but your ass will burn, or your hand, which may make you stink.
The fact is the only reason we don't consider this a monopoly is because it is just one aspect of the game industry. But that is certainly what it is, a monopoly, and anyone that says a free market can function in a monopoly hasn't passed their highschool grade economics. EA has monopolozed this corner of the industry, which, not coincidentally, is extremely lucrative and easy to monopolize; don't sit back and say "duuur what a dumb idiot, he should just stfu and not buy EA games," when EA's games themselves are indefensible (you can't deny anything the guy said). If more people spoke out against EA, vocally, yes if we all flooded YouTube with protest videos against Madden, its very possible THEN, and only then, would EA actually feel any heat. But the idea of a free market here is a load of crap and really only helps EA, because the wonderful corporate world has fooled people into the notion of a free market and complicity.
The free market is a great tool when it exists, but saying the free market exists in the software and console game industry is extremely ignorant.
As for competition, the NFL is not the only thing there is to football, nor is Madden the only football game. In fact, the next best selling game is NCAA or something similar, also by EA, and it does well for itself. Which proves that there is room for other football games. The fact is that EA is making and marketing football games better than anyone else. For that, the largest football league approached them. That is all free market at work. Bitch about it all you want, the masses have voted with their dollar and are proving you wrong. (And it is in no manner whatsoever a monopoly. If you think it is I question how you passed high school at all).
On a side note, I've bought many EA games, and have never found them to be lower quality than any similar companies games. All this EA bashing is ridiculous. People need to lay off it for a while.
I love sports and love sports games. Does Madden have it's issues? Sure as shit does but EA is the publisher. Tiburon made the game. Just like DICE made BF2.
You guys take to the streets with your fire torches and pitch forks all so easily. I have played the other football games and they just don't have the depth that madden does. NFL teams or players doesn't matter to me but the whole draft class from NCAA, the superstar modes and the pretty smooth online play is awesome.
They have to be doing something right or they wouldn't be selling so many copies each year.
And even if that would suddenly fall away, they'd still have the benefit of name. I don't think the public at large is going to hear any of these complaints any time soon, and if they see Madden or NFL slapped onto a product, they'll be a lot more likely to buy it over another less familiar product.
It's a free market, but the average gamer isn't know for being picky, and most likely doesn't even read (expensive) gaming mags which could warn them when a game's not up to scratch.
Prof, I'm not going to try to explain it all here, but it may be time you look into your free market economics. EA got to where it is in a free market, no government hand outs, no illegal operations, etc... It is therefore the product of the free market. So yep, free market at work.
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You obviously don't understand what a free market is, then.
Just because EA has arrived where they are without illegal operations does not mean it is a free market now, which is what you don't seem to understand; just because the free market brought something about does not mean the market remains free. There are exceedingly high barriers to entry, few if any alternatives (most controlled by EA, and no direct NFL alternatives), and an absolutely indomitable marketing machine. The 2K sports NFL games before Exclusivity pounded Madden critically, and by the second year of $20 games, was threatening it in sales; coincidence that EA received exclusive NFL rights? Is that a free market? No, of course not, that's coercion, exaggeration of quality, outright lying, as far as marketing goes. To call EA, and specifically Madden, a product of the free market is incredibly naive.
[ QUOTE ]
That is all free market at work. Bitch about it all you want, the masses have voted with their dollar and are proving you wrong. (And it is in no manner whatsoever a monopoly. If you think it is I question how you passed high school at all).
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, I think you misunderstand, or have been indoctrinated with a certin idea, of what the free market is and how it functions. You cannot have a free market where sports games, specifically football, is concerned, under present conditions. Now not only is there a high barrier of entry, it is almost an impossible market to enter, because you cannot acquire NFL rights. You can have the best football game ever, but with EA's marketing grip and NFL exclusivity rights, you will never be able to compete. The free market doesn't run on marketing, it runs on product. Right now, EA's dominance relies solely on marketing; you can hardly have a dominant product from eliminating rivals and fooling people and then say it is the free market. The entire free market concept is questionable in the corporate conglomerate world, and certainly in a micro-market such as this its a completely false concept.
You're all good consumers. You really believe in your power of the dollar and that complaints are pointless... wow. I suppose we shouldn't criticize government either and just vote every 2 years? I guess you think that if enough people complain EA still won't do anything? 20,000 people who vocally complain, launch petitions, reach out to people about alternatives to EA games, etc., are much more effective than 50,000 or 80,000 people that don't buy EA games and keep their mouths shut about it out of some naive notion that the "free market" will run its course. The "free market" may well run its course but at this point it is so FUBARed only a moron or a millionairre would suggest it will magically correct itself.
-EA didn't develop it.
-Yes, it was buggy and very hard to bug fix. I could get into details.. but.. haha why bother.
I'm not sure if EA games are "more buggy" than others. I know EA seems to stick to its deadlines and ship dates, and that probably leads to titles being booted out the door sooner than later. But it all comes down to money. Dev budget, estimated sales, marketing budget, all work into a complex formula, as to when a game should be on the shelf. Pushing back a game 6 months to bug fix, is sometimes just not a financially viable option.
That being said I hate playing a buggy POS as much as the next person. Are games getting better in terms of quality control these days, or worse? I dont know
Is EA right for the exclusive rights to the NFL? They also have rights to Lord of the Rings as well I believe but they lost the rights to MLB.
Same can be said about any "licensed" toy, movie merchandise, etc.
Not just any toy company can go and make Halo figures. McFarlane has the license now and hopefully he will turn out some awesome toys.
the NFL actually approached EA, not the other way around.
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I never claimed otherwise... it doesn't really matter who approached who, the fact remains that for the past three years, EA has had the only NFL videogame on the market. That doesn't leave much choice when it comes to an NFL fan wanting to play a videogame featuring his favorite team, does it?
[ QUOTE ]
Keyser, there are other football games, some of which feature NFL players if you are that crazy about it being an NFL game. What about 2K Sport's new one?
[/ QUOTE ]
2K Sports' new title is called "All-Pro Football 2K8"... it contains NO current NFL players; it contains NO real NFL teams; it has NO association with the NFL whatsoever.
I know some people enjoy any kind of American football: the CFL, college ball, arena football, or whatever. I personally only have any interest in the NFL, because I happen to be a fan of an NFL team (the Oakland Raiders). Therefore, I have no interest in buying an NCAA game, or a Blitz game, or a game that features Joe Montana and Marcus Allen playing for the Memphis Unicorns or the Tallahassee Butterflies.
I like playing out my favorite NFL team's season and getting to play the same schedule as the real team against the same opponents; I like playing exhibition games against my team's rivals and other NFL teams I despise (which, as a Raider's fan, is a pretty long list); I like to get a good solid hit on LaDainian Tomlinson, and then maybe try to hit him again after the whistle to prematurely end his season (again... I'm a Raiders fan, that's how I roll
again... I'm a Raiders fan, that's how I roll [/img]
I'm sorry to hear that :P Then again, my local team is the Detroit Lions, so I guess I shouldn't say much
Madden's getting great reviews all around right now. If it was as bad as this video claims, that would not be.
the only kind of software that gets insanely tested and checked is controling stuff for say flight control, aviation... but then very often the software is broken in very small independent modules and "easier" to get each part robust. All that costs insane money, but well if you are boeing or airbus you can shell out a bit more than the average game studio
a product on sale should work properly. I am surprised there have not been more legal actions against game companies
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd be far more willing to apply this to other products than games. Often in games, bugs are unfortunate coming together of certain events that QA haven't come across or been able to replicate (you can only fix a bug with the relevant debug info). Others are last minute mistakes, the fixing of which can fuck up the whole release process on which many are depending, but a call is made that the player can still get full enjoyment from the game, even if the bug is encountered. Most gameplayers can live with that
On the other hand ... The other night we decided to have a barbecue. We had all the food prepared,self- marinaded chicken, prawns on skewers, that sort of thing. It was a nice evening for once, it was going to go down a storm. So I broke out the charcoal. The sainsbury's homebase self-lighting charcoal. Self-lighting being something it singularly failed to do. Barbecue didn't happen, it all went in the oven. This wasn't a bug. This was shit design, and a belief that once the product left the shelves, that was their responsibilities discharged. So what if we didn't design it properly? Its sold. Fuck em
This was the same company from which I once bought a shower curtain rod. Upon putting it up (following instructions to the letter) I quickly realised it would not and COULD not support its own weight, let alone that of a shower curtain.
At least with games, console games especially, testing is a requirement
Sometimes poor design choices can also seem like bugs:)
Damn right I am, the only way I can get shit to work without risking hard-earned cash on a 50/50 gamble is by downloading it.
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lol haha my thoughts exactly... i don't remember the last pc game i purchased. I don't really play any either though but i will be there opening day to pickup UT3.