The predominance of consciousness over matter
polycounter lvl 20
An interview with physicist Dr. Amit Goswami
http://www.wie.org/j11/goswami.asp
quantum physics vs. spirituality, materialism vs. idealism, good stuff
i think he's right on the money with the role consciousness plays in shaping reality, it's the only logical explanation
[EDIT]this whole god thing is a bad title gimik and is entirely irrelevant to the article
http://www.wie.org/j11/goswami.asp
quantum physics vs. spirituality, materialism vs. idealism, good stuff
i think he's right on the money with the role consciousness plays in shaping reality, it's the only logical explanation
[EDIT]this whole god thing is a bad title gimik and is entirely irrelevant to the article
Replies
"Before you read any further, stop and close your eyes for a moment. Now consider the following question:"
How in the hell can I read the question to consider it while my eyes are closed? I love it.
An interview with director of HBCC UFO Research, Brian Vike
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=30643
funnel-like spirals, devious spinning lights etc., good stuff
i think he's right on the money with the way EBEs are representations of alien visitations, it's the only logical explanation
--- SERIOUSNESS BEGINS HERE ---
Sorry, couldn't resist, it's about on the same level of "science" as what this guy is going on about.
And I quote from the article with Amit Goswami:
"Goswami is convinced, along with a number of others who subscribe to the same view, that the universe, in order to exist, requires a conscious sentient being to be aware of it."
Since when is one guy being "convinced" of something, scientific evidence?
If people want to ponder philosophical things like this, that's all well and good, but calling in things like "evidence" and "science" just doesn't match up with what they're talking about. What he talks about is not "evidence", and I'm guessing the vast majority of the scientific community would reject these postulations as what they appear to be - pretentious over-thought mind experiments. That's not science.
Sorry, couldn't resist, it's about on the same level of "science" as what this guy is going on about.
And I quote from the article with Amit Goswami:
"Goswami is convinced, along with a number of others who subscribe to the same view, that the universe, in order to exist, requires a conscious sentient being to be aware of it."
Since when is one guy being "convinced" of something, scientific evidence?
If people want to ponder philosophical things like this, that's all well and good, but calling in things like "evidence" and "science" just doesn't match up with what they're talking about. What he talks about is not "evidence", and I'm guessing the vast majority of the scientific community would reject these postulations as what they appear to be - pretentious over-thought mind experiments. That's not science.
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But because he thought of it and it therefore came into being in his concious mind, it must be fact, because matter is fact, and concious thought creates matter.
And I quote:
"Resting as emptiness, embrace the entire world of form. And the world of form is unfolding. It is evolving. It is developing. And therefore resting as blissful emptiness, you ecstatically embrace and push against the world of form as a duty."
Pull the other one, for it hath bells on...
Edit: While I may sound a little harsh here, I feel it's justified, since there is nothing in that article which even remotely resembles "scientific proof of the existence of God" - the title is such an arrogant and divisive choice, it's obvious they picked it for friction value rather than actual truth. The fall-back point here is that they are referring to "God" as a sort of non-specific floaty random entity, as opposed to any particular religion's deity. Again, misleading and non-scientific. It's that sort of misrepresentation and smoke screening which really annoys me about this stuff.
If there was scientific proof that God exists then it would no longer require faith to believe in God. It would simply be fact and everyone would know it as fact. Therefore if God had been proven as fact then people would not be able to choose to love God. They would not be able to enter into a relationship with God based on love. God requires us to make a choice( to love Him or not ) and to have faith, thats what I believe. Obviously this makes me a Christian and Im amazed at what God has done during my life, science doesnt have to prove it for it to be real.
of the Galaxy and the Universe and the forces at work within that have convinced my of an Intelligence behind the universe . So indeed science does prove the exsistence of GOD or a Creator/Creators at least
in any case, he talks about how consciousnesses, individually and collectively, sculpt and will the universe (matter) into form, and into existence.
So indeed science does prove the exsistence of GOD or a Creator/Creators at least
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Alright, I just criticized MoP for this, so I feel a bit like a hypocrite, but do any of you know exactly what the word 'prove' means?
There's evidence both ways, but zero proof.
"god doesn't exist! prove he does, and i'll be the first to bow down before him."
that's ur scientific evidence right there!
@Tulkamir: ur supposed to cloes ur eyes for a moment, and upon opening them, u would've read "Now consider the following question:" so u read ahead.... follow directions!!! lol.
yeah, i hate ppl claiming to have scientific evidence when they don't. I absolutely HATE being preached to, and told that god exists, and then being given 'evidence'.
PS: im abhishek chaudhry, and no, i've never actually got a doctorate. don't go googling it.
READ THE ARTICLE -- 'god science' has nothing to do with the article
its about quantum physics and simple logic, for those who can keep an open mind
Proof is in the eye of the beholder I don't expect my proof to prove anything to you . You have to find your own proof especially in this matter . No matter how technologically advanced we get there will always a be a way to refute the exsistence of God or a Creator and Religion .
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Not true. Proof is fact, undeniable. Belief is different. You have faith and believe in a theory/theology. This belief may make it true to your mind, but Proof implies fact, or law, which is undeniable, and means it must be true in the mind of others. There is no proof given in this article, it is all still theory, without solid proof, and therefore I'm in agreement with MoP about the whole deal.
And MoP... this enlightenment blog you speak of... I could own the maleable minds of many! Muahahaha!
... I uhh mean... I could enlighten the souls of the masses...?
ged: some people can write scrolls on god, but fail to define it first. your point is blank if you don't tell us what does the word 'god' stand for.
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I cant define God, God is a person/being, I cant define me or define you either, that doesnt mean we dont exist. Some things I do know is that God is also known as God the Father, Jesus and the holy spirit( I dont think its difficult to be 3 things at once if you are God ). That is the God I serve and put my faith in.
They don't rightly understand what evolution is because they are ignoring the transcendent dimension, they are ignoring the purposiveness of the universe, the creative play.
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What purposiveness? The guy bases his argument on the premise that the universe has a purpose, but without any evidence to support such an assertion (the universe may have a purpose or final cause... but not just because you say so). That's teleology, not science.
Also, I was hoping this article might touch on the classic paradox of God and freewill (which it didn't). Oh well.
*closes eyes*
*likes not reading*
*opens eyes*
*closes window*
I am Catholic by the way, and I have an extremely strong faith in God. I was raised Baptist in a private school and religion was pushed very strongly on me and I was told what to believe, but once I was older I never really felt something inside telling me it was true. For about 2 years during high school I became atheist and I loved to argue with religious people just because I thought it was funny (I was a douche). I really began to question a lot of things in life, and one night I decided to pray for personal proof that God was real. The next week I witnessed some of the most amazing and unbelievable things I've ever seen in my life, and I've been spiritual ever since. If you guys are interested, I could share a thing or two that happened. Now I don't have any actual proof whatsoever to show anyone else, so I can't blame them for not believing until they experience something like I did, but I have a stronger faith than anyone I know who has just been told what to believe.
Also, I was hoping this article might touch on the classic paradox of God and freewill (which it didn't). Oh well.
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I agree with what you said, but what is the paradox of God and freewill? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, I'm just curious
Jeez! you know nothing of religion!
[sorry if i seem to base... when i talk of religion, i tend to be sarcastic and mean
PS: yes im thread watching... what will u do about it?
Proof is in the eye of the beholder I don't expect my proof to prove anything to you . You have to find your own proof especially in this matter . No matter how technologically advanced we get there will always a be a way to refute the exsistence of God or a Creator and Religion .
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No, it definitely can't be refuted -- anyone who says 'there is no good' is a hypocritical fool, making a claim without proof.
Just the same, there never has been (and I doubt ever will be) proof of god. It's up to faith. Faith that there's god/faith that there isn't, it's not proven either way. And, Tulkamir's right. Proof explicitly isn't in the eye of the beholder. Unless there's unbiased, irrefutable fact, there is no proof.
I cant define God, God is a person/being, I cant define me or define you either, that doesnt mean we dont exist.
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Yeah, but the big difference is I can prove whether you do or do not exist, and so can anyone. Proving God does or does not exist will forever be impossible, at least for me. Which is why I don't try to prove or disprove God's existence.
I personally don't believe in God, I'm not religious nor am I spiritual even though I was brought up to be and was sent to Islamic school every weekend for a good portion of my childhood. I just don't believe because I can't invest that much time and thought in something that requires that much faith.
Those of you that claim to have witnessed some amazing things that have made you a believer, or renewed your faith, etc. That's great and I'm honestly happy for you to have been privy to something that powerful. But I'll always be too closed minded to be able to experience anything like that.
I've always been a firm believer that I control my own luck and my own life. If I want something, I do everything in MY power (not someone else's) to obtain it. Until "proven" otherwise, I won't be so easily swayed.
-caseyjones
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Also, I was hoping this article might touch on the classic paradox of God and freewill (which it didn't). Oh well.
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I agree with what you said, but what is the paradox of God and freewill? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, I'm just curious
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Aesir touched on it already, but I'll take it a bit further: God is omnipotent (if he wasn't, then could you really consider him God?). Being omnipotent also means he is omniscient (all-knowing) and infallible (never wrong). That means God knows everything you've ever done, and everything you're ever going to do.
If you're going to rob a bank on December 3rd, 2009, God already knows this even though it hasn't yet happened (remember, he's omniscient). That means your actions are predetermined, because if you decided to change your mind at the last minute and not rob that bank, then you would prove God fallible (and therefore he wouldn't really be God). If God is omnipotent, then freewill can't exist because everything is predetermined, and therefore there is only God's will.
That's why I'm agnostic (about both God and freewill). I'd like to think I have freewill, but it's actually even harder to prove than God when you think about it. You can define human behavior and life itself in terms of physical and chemical interactions, with complex patterns and processes that emerge from these interactions... it makes it kind of hard to explain exactly how freewill fits into that picture. It's such an elusive concept.
Personally, I'm agnostic AND a fatalist
btw: in certain religions, when they say that ur fate is pre-determined, that means that ur end is known etc. etc. and not the particular events leading up to it.
as for certain religions like hinduism and buddhism, i believe the thought is that u _may_ have a destiny that u will fulfill, but how u go about fulfilling it determines ur karma and the future of ur never-dieing soul and what u re-incarnate as etc etc... don't quote me though!
This is nothig new..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immateriality
If you're going to rob a bank on December 3rd, 2009, God already knows this even though it hasn't yet happened (remember, he's omniscient). That means your actions are predetermined, because if you decided to change your mind at the last minute and not rob that bank, then you would prove God fallible (and therefore he wouldn't really be God). If God is omnipotent, then freewill can't exist because everything is predetermined, and therefore there is only God's will.
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That doesn't follow. If God knows right now that you're planning to rob a bank on December 3rd, 2009, then he also knows that you're going to change your mind on December 2nd.
Divine omniscience is better viewed as a time machine (God is more accurately 'outside' of time, but whatever.) If you built a time machine and traveled one year into the future, you could find out who will win the 2008 Super Bowl. Armed with this knowledge, you return to 2007. You know for fact which team will win and what the final score will be. Does your knowledge of this predetermine the winner? Of course not - you have awareness, but not control. God has already taken his time machine to the last day of everyone's lives and made very careful notes; he's not making the decision for you, he's just aware of your choices.
Looking at God constrained by time is problematic anyway, but linking determinism into it really causes confusion. God is removed from time, so logical/temporal sequences of events can't be used as a point of measure. It's like the whole "can God create a rock even he can't lift" argument against omnipotence - the material realm isn't really an applicable arena for discussing God's power, etc.
Shroud-Of-Turin History Channel Documentary
I am always open minded to hear anything regarding "GOD", after hearing/reading/viewing anything I come up with my own choices/ideas/beliefs if you will and like others have said you can never prove God existed or is existing just have to have faith.
Serious:
For those that have never truly-&-honestly asked God for anything give it a shot but it has to be very meaningful to you. I did one night and like Ged I was amazed though I was in a very emotional state while doing this I still feel my "prayer" was answered.
Though, I still didn't get that selfish request of becoming a great artist.
God exist or not?
I battle with this idea every night, yes it's time consuming but also like others have said some proof/reassurance wouldn't hurt. Also like others have said God's never wrong so to prove anything of his existence would probably never happen, "till his coming"?
As you can tell by my Screen-Name I am not 100% christian/catholic/God obsessed... But I do like discussions on the subject matter. Hey and it's something we all have in common, now you know the purpose/choice of my SN.
I also don't believe that atheists, agnostics, or any other religions go to hell. First off, I believe all religions (at least most of them) are simply worshiping the same deity in the fashion that their culture has formed. I also believe you are judged when your time is up and if you're an evil shithead then you aren't granted access. I honestly don't even know if I believe in a literal hell.
I'm one open minded man!
Serious:
For those that have never truly-&-honestly asked God for anything give it a shot but it has to be very meaningful to you. I did one night and like Ged I was amazed though I was in a very emotional state while doing this I still feel my "prayer" was answered.
Though, I still didn't get that selfish request of becoming a great artist.
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You know, even though Evan Almighty wasn't exactly a golden nugget, there was one quote I really liked from it:
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Let me ask you something. If someone prays for patience, you think God gives them patience? Or does he give them the opportunity to be patient? If he prayed for courage, does God give him courage, or does he give him opportunities to be courageous? If someone prayed for the family to be closer, do you think God zaps them with warm fuzzy feelings, or does he give them opportunities to love each other?
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And hey, you found Polycount, so get to work!
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If you're going to rob a bank on December 3rd, 2009, God already knows this even though it hasn't yet happened (remember, he's omniscient). That means your actions are predetermined, because if you decided to change your mind at the last minute and not rob that bank, then you would prove God fallible (and therefore he wouldn't really be God). If God is omnipotent, then freewill can't exist because everything is predetermined, and therefore there is only God's will.
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That doesn't follow. If God knows right now that you're planning to rob a bank on December 3rd, 2009, then he also knows that you're going to change your mind on December 2nd.
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I realize that, but I didn't address it for the sake of brevity, because it doesn't make a difference. Obviously, if you are going to choose to NOT rob the bank, then God already knows you're not going to rob the bank before you ever make that choice. The point remains that if God is omniscient and knows every choice you're ever going to make and is infallible, then you can't possibly avoid doing what he knows you are going to do. Therefore, everything has to be predetermined.
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You know for fact which team will win and what the final score will be. Does your knowledge of this predetermine the winner? Of course not
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Actually, yes... it does. If you can determine the outcome before it happens (by traveling to the future, or however else), then that is by definition predetermination. Of course, there's also the point that traveling to the future to determine the outcome isn't the same as foreknowledge.
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Looking at God constrained by time is problematic anyway, but linking determinism into it really causes confusion. God is removed from time, so logical/temporal sequences of events can't be used as a point of measure. It's like the whole "can God create a rock even he can't lift" argument against omnipotence - the material realm isn't really an applicable arena for discussing God's power, etc.
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The fact that God exists "outside of time" (which is an absurd argument that doesn't really mean anything) is irrelevant, since humans exist in time and our free will is defined in terms of time. You can make all sorts of ridiculous assertions like God exists "outside of time" or "adjacent to physics" or whatever you want, but if God knows everything that's ever going to happen, and he can't be wrong, then everything we do is immutably predetermined (regardless of where God exists in relation to time)... there's no way around that.
I realize that, but I didn't address it for the sake of brevity, because it doesn't make a difference. Obviously, if you are going to choose to NOT rob the bank, then God already knows you're not going to rob the bank before you ever make that choice. The point remains that if God is omniscient and knows every choice you're ever going to make and is infallible, then you can't possibly avoid doing what he knows you are going to do. Therefore, everything has to be predetermined.
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But God isn't determining it; the robber is. Regardless of whether or not he knows the future (a word and concept that only applies to our 3D world), the robber was the one who made the choice to do it. I don't understand how knowledge of an event causes the event to happen.
Anyone with a serious interest in philosophical debate on the existence of God, or not, really should check out the Jonathan Miller series 'A Brief History Of Disbelief'. It just so happened to be on tonight:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/atheism.shtml
http://www.kqed.org/programs/tv/program-landing.jsp?progID=16571
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I realize that, but I didn't address it for the sake of brevity, because it doesn't make a difference. Obviously, if you are going to choose to NOT rob the bank, then God already knows you're not going to rob the bank before you ever make that choice. The point remains that if God is omniscient and knows every choice you're ever going to make and is infallible, then you can't possibly avoid doing what he knows you are going to do. Therefore, everything has to be predetermined.
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But God isn't determining it; the robber is. Regardless of whether or not he knows the future (a word and concept that only applies to our 3D world), the robber was the one who made the choice to do it. I don't understand how knowledge of an event causes the event to happen.
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but God created the world, and thereby, by knowing the futre, set in motion, with full knowlege that the robber would be born and become a robber and rob the bank. God doesnt just know the future. He created it to be that way.
Yeah, but the big difference is I can prove whether you do or do not exist, and so can anyone. Proving God does or does not exist will forever be impossible, at least for me. Which is why I don't try to prove or disprove God's existence.
I personally don't believe in God, I'm not religious nor am I spiritual even though I was brought up to be and was sent to Islamic school every weekend for a good portion of my childhood. I just don't believe because I can't invest that much time and thought in something that requires that much faith.
Those of you that claim to have witnessed some amazing things that have made you a believer, or renewed your faith, etc. That's great and I'm honestly happy for you to have been privy to something that powerful. But I'll always be too closed minded to be able to experience anything like that.
I've always been a firm believer that I control my own luck and my own life. If I want something, I do everything in MY power (not someone else's) to obtain it. Until "proven" otherwise, I won't be so easily swayed.
[/ QUOTE ] caseyjones
Hey Casey, I like how honest you are. Faith isnt necessarily something that requires alot of time and thought. God is just simply part of reality for me and my belief in Jesus and what he did for us is a part of my life. Spending time and effort on my faith just comes from the fact that I want to love God and love his people(everyone on earth). If I want something it is still up to me to make the correct choices. What people forget is that if you have faith in God then life is all about God and what He wants not what we want.
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but God created the world, and thereby, by knowing the futre, set in motion, with full knowlege that the robber would be born and become a robber and rob the bank. God doesnt just know the future. He created it to be that way.
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This is an interesting debate aesir and Ive never seen any conclusive answer before. One of my friends in high school used to say that God already knew him to be an athiest before he was born and thought that was funny. I think we all have free will to choose like sonic was saying but also like sonic was saying God is not constricted by time and space. If God wants to fiddle around with something hundreds of years ago he can, if he wants to do something in the future he can. But more important for us is that he is constantly with us in the present. We cant think of these things in human terms, we just couldnt comprehend it. It doesnt mean He isnt real just cause we cant understand Him.
Choosing to believe is not a logical or rational choice, it is spiritual...yes that part of life that alot of people choose to ignore. Strangely though some people say they have a soul but still refuse to believe that spiritual beings like God exist.
This girl is cute http://www.plentpak.com/kitagawakeiko/
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I'm afraid I'm gonna have to side with Soul on this one guys. Also, I believe Alicia Keys is rather fine and has a good voice too. The truth shall be heard.
a mature discussion on a pretty sensitive topic. It's a good read!
Here's my contribution:
You cannot get something from nothing. "Nothing" does not exist even the black vacuum of space is something. So if there was never "Nothing" that means there was always "Something". Does Matter have a beginning and end?
If yes, then there is no possibility of God. If matter is in fact eternal with no beginning and no end, then we know that that one characteristic required Of a God, endlessness, is real. So the possibilty of a God becomes a bit more plausible.
The next question is, Is consciousness eternal as well? And that gets pretty deep so...
Yeah there might be a God there might not. But in living your life like there was a God, you really have nothing to lose. If you die and your consciousness ends, well your done so what does it matter? But if your conscious self continues on and you happen to meet this Ancient and eternal being, then what? I truly do not know, but better safe than sorry.
It's funny how some Christians will try to explain or defend the concept of God through logic. That pretty much means placing yourself at the level of, or above, God, and in doing so reserve a place for yourself in Hades, no?
Also, the concept of "free will".. guys, don't be so naive. Remember you are polycounters, known far and wide for intelligence, charm and healthy BMIs, let's maintain that image now
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How does affiliation redeem ignorance? Should people lie about not being able to think or having no desire to?
*hides in inpenetrable fortress*
I mean, theres even a chance that he doesn't interact directly with our world and he has a team of ninja cyborg lions who stealthily alter our world to his bidding. It wouldn't be all that less plausible than a lot of ideas we have.