Question for you guys

Penzer

I'm looking for a full time position in Vancouver now, and things are starting to pick up. I'm working on an art test for one studio, and have two others wondering if I'd be interested in working part time doing contracts for them.

If you're freelance you can work on contracts for whoever, but I was curious what the standard is once you're full time somewhere. Obviously I would ask for permission before doing contract work for another studio, but I was wondering if it is generally allowed or not? I understand why it wouldn't be, but doing some small contracts on top of working would be really helpful in wiping out student loans so I'd be inclined to do it, schedule permitting.

Thanks

oobersli

i would focus on just getting a job. Working full time will eat up alot of your time.

EarthQuake

Generally a company will make you sign a non-compete, which should stop you from doing any work for a competing project. Tho i've heard the legality of these is questionable.

Tulkamir

Hey Sam, good to hear ya got some leads. It depends on what studio you're with, but when you are signing the contract you can ask them about striking the non-compete or editing it to allow you to freelance on the side. I was in the same boat, and I had no troubles with it. Not all companies are as open to it as they were here though, so it'd be tough to say. Just ask and see what they say. if they say no... more freetime for you after work.

Mongrelman

It may also say something like you can't do other work for something in competition to the project at your job, so if you're working on an a WW2 FPS (for example), they may not mind if you freelance for a poker game, whereas they might be against work on another FPS and/or something in the same genre.

Penzer

Okay cool, I'm glad to see it's definitely a possibility. My focus is of course on getting a full time studio, and respecting what they want, but from what I'm hearing working on an educational game that won't even be sold is probably A-Okay.

I'll bring it up whenever I do get signed somewhere, thanks guys.

spacemonkey

Depends on the company, but its certainly something that I have wanted to do, but been unable to since I have been at Bioware.
BUT its tough as hell and you can easily get burnt out trying to work at home and work!

Daz

I think it's a bit like being gay in the US military. Don't ask don't tell

spacemonkey

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I think it's a bit like being gay in the US military. Don't ask don't tell

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haha, yeah I have a friend like that... no, not in the military. Too much hassle for me

Ghostscape

I know my company doesn't allow us to work on other stuff, and in fact goes so far as to say they own everything we ever make while under their employ. While the enforcement of such a contract is iffy at best, they'd probably fire me if I started doing side work for another company.

More importantly, I come home from work sufficiently burnt out on making game stuff I couldn't fathom working on stuff outside of work at the moment. I love what I do too much to want to work on portfolio pieces to look for another job, and making stuff just for fun is somehow less fun when I already make cool shit that I want to make for 40 hours a week.

spacemonkey

Well the attraction of freelance - in addition to your regular work is working on art that gives you a taste of different styles and its a good way to save up/earn the money to buy something you couldn't have otherwise afforded.
Also Ghostscape check your contract, it might be that you have to inform them if you plan on doing work at home - but generally those clauses are there to prevent programmers/tools guys from creating great new pieces of software and leaving and selling them. Making art work that doesn't get used in a product and that you have no intention of selling wouldn't fall under the agreement. Its just a clause to cover the company's ass.

Slum

A buddy of mine says his non-compete doesn't even allow him to work on mods. Kind of lame, eh? I don't think this is the norm, though.

Jesse Moody

[ QUOTE ]
A buddy of mine says his non-compete doesn't even allow him to work on mods. Kind of lame, eh? I don't think this is the norm, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how something like that could be enforced. A mod is done for fun usually and no money comes out of them. I don't think a company contract can legally tell you what you can and can't do at home and when you are away from work. As long as you aren't selling tools like mentioned and bringing stuff from work home with you.

Our industry is still fairly new and a lot of companies do different things in the contracts. I know one of the things that was in my Liquid contract was no compete so I couldn't go do freelance for one of their competitors and also an area that said I can't apply or contact the company and apply for a position (ex. Gearbox, Zombie Studios) while I am working for Liquid.

But contracts are usually designed to just save the companys ass. If you were to ever read a Major League Baseball players contract you would see all kinds of weird clauses. They just want to protect their investment. Which in this case is your ability to create art work or write code.

HarlequiN

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how something like that could be enforced. A mod is done for fun usually and no money comes out of them. I don't think a company contract can legally tell you what you can and can't do at home and when you are away from work.


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It's not so much that they can legally enforce it, but they don't have to. It's kind of difficult to take a company to court to fight the terms of your contract when you're unemployed. And that's really what the forms you sign on entering an industry job are saying - disobey this and we'll fire your ass.

I work for the same place as Ghostscape, and I've worked there for a fairly long time, and as far as the legal department is concerned they do indeed own everything you produce inside and outside of your work. This got me so annoyed at one point (not very long ago) that I sent an email asking if they technically owned my (then) unborn son after he was delivered too.

But yeah, that goes for everything: contract work, mod work, models you make for the hell of it, books you may write, songs you may compose, and presumably this cup of tea I have on my desk.

There is a form you can file with the company asking for permission to release things you may have done, but the idea of filling it out after producing something and having it denied has so far put me off filing one - but I intend to do so soon as I have some coolish things to share (no art, work burns me out too . You also have to fill out one for each piece you do, unless an agreement can be reached regarding a body of work - such as the guy I work with who does palioart, and has carte blanche to do anything he wants as long as it's dinosaur illustrations and not for a film or other game studio.

As much as the whole thing chaps my hide (and I know they're protecting theirs, but it's still annoying), it's not something I'm willing to risk my job over, enforceable or not.

That said, different sudios have different policies regarding this sort of thing, but it seems the bigger the company, the more strict they become. You can always ask them what their policy is regarding other work before you accept the job if it's going to be a real sticking point.

Rob Galanakis

My boss once ate a sandwich I made.

I've worked on mods and other projects with professionals, most with non-compete clauses, they are just silent about it, don't use their real name, and they tell me not to tell everyone "hey xyz from Big Huge Games is programming for us!" and keep it on the DL. But generally when this happens its because they are unhappy with their real game-job or not doing creative stuff (such as when I worked with Vassago, or the aforementioned mr. xyz from BHG).

Sage

I have been at interviews and have asked to the hiring manager or owner of the company if it's okay to write up some cg animated films on my spare time at home, since that's the kind of shit I do, personal shit and what ever, or do work for mods. The answer was no, The people generally didn't like it that I asked in the first place if there were such restrictions. Now I just don't ask, cause I figure they don't want to talk about it or allow people do do work for other people while you work for them.

Alex

aesir

sage, youre trying to tell me that they said you couldn't work on non-professional, personal projects? I would have had trouble not laughing...

Jesse Moody

Yeah I don't see how a company can say that they own 3d that you make at home. So on that same lines everyone that is an industry pro here that has won contests like Dom War and all the others your art belongs to your prospective employers? That's bogus and totally not enforceable and I'm pretty sure if you were to get fired you would have a pretty good lawsuit for unlawful termination.

Maybe I'm wrong though but it just seems like a bit of a stretch.

Slum

Jesse: Supposing you do have a good case for unlawful termination, you're STILL fired. Most people like their jobs and don't want to even get to that point, so fighting the battle means they lose either way. Sure, that non-compete clause sucks, but what I hear from most people is that it doesn't suck enough to risk their job.

Asthane

I think people like Sage just went about negotiating it the wrong way... You don't need to get outright ownership of everything you make... You just need to promise they have first crack at paying for whatever you make, that oughtta shut em up

</humor>

Ghostscape

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I don't see how a company can say that they own 3d that you make at home. So on that same lines everyone that is an industry pro here that has won contests like Dom War and all the others your art belongs to your prospective employers? That's bogus and totally not enforceable and I'm pretty sure if you were to get fired you would have a pretty good lawsuit for unlawful termination.

Maybe I'm wrong though but it just seems like a bit of a stretch.

[/ QUOTE ]

My understanding is that the legal team makes it as broad as they possibly can so that the employee can't take advantage of a loophole to "steal" work/ideas/whatever. Likewise, since it is so broad, it is difficult to enforce unless there is an obvious carryover between your work for the company and your personal work. Lets say I'm working on Pretty Pony Princess' Party for Wii, and come up with a bunch of pony princesses. I hand off Pony Princess A to the Pony Modeler. I then come home later on and in my spare time make a Pony Princess player model and put it into pOblivion (needs more Ps). If my company's contract had specific writing saying creations I made in my field were the ownership of the company, then I could argue that I am a concept artist, not a modeler, so therefore the models I do make I own, even though I spent company time on designing the model I made, and furthermore enhanced a competitor's product in doing so. So to avoid situations like that (because accounting for them all would take entire books' worth of legalese) it's easier to say "we own everything you ever make."

However, if while I'm working on 4P, I enter the Domination War and make ChipTooth WarAxe, a giant hulking CyberBeserker, the judge presiding over "The Man vs Ghostscape" would most likely see that while they are both related art forms in a similar media, ChipTooth has nothing to do with 4P, and furthermore was not made using any company equipment or time or intellectual property, and in the face of all this rule that The Man has no ownership of ChipTooth.

Furthermore, in most cases, it is beneficial for The Man to continue to employ Ghostscape, because Ghostscape is awesome, and is not harming the company in any way by participating in the contest, and if anything improving his skills in a related field outside of work is only beneficial to The Man as it means he is voluntarily increasing his value to The Man at no cost to The Man, and in most reasonable circumstances Ghostscape wouldn't have to worry about anything unless ChipTooth suddenly became highly valuable, in which case a legal battle would most likely ensue because The Man is a corporation and all corporations want to please their stockholders and that means sucking every possible dime out of every possible place they can find.

Furthermore this entire scenario relies too much on "reason" and as a result I won't be testing the waters. At least for a while

Jesse Moody

ok what about this? I am working on an xbox live arcade title for which I designed while I was in college and is my original IP. I pay for the xbox live arcade software (XNA) and handle all the details with microsoft. All art is my design and a friend of mines. It is done 100% from our home office / workstations. How could this not belong to me and not the company I work for?

I ask because being that our industry is still fairly new like I mentioned earlier where does the line end with The Man's hand being in my cookie jar?

spacemonkey

Usually given any stupid contractual obligations as discussed in this thread you would have to declare the project to the company at the commencement of the initial contract signing.
Or during the course of employment if you feel brave enough.

Jesse Moody

hmmm... so i'm wondering how i should go about my xbox arcade title so I don't have to fork anything over to anyone in the end. I mean i'm a contract artist for liquid and they had a no-compete clause but i don't remember reading anywhere anything that said what i make is theres.

I think that this whole thing is bogus BUT there really is nothing you can do about it because well we all know our employers have more money to toss around then we do and even more so if we lose our jobs.

Guess I'll have to form an alias.