Any cheap 3d schools?
polycounter lvl 17
hey i just lost out on a co-op position at EA sports just because im not in school wich i think is really lam but i have been meaning to freshen up my skills i was wondering if there are any affordable schools out there?(vancouver area)
Replies
Like it has been said, you are on the cheapest school (The Internet), but I think that the universities in BC have recently started a game art/design program, so check at UBC/Simon Fraser for that. Aside from that I went to AI. Dunno what it costs now days. I had a great experience there, but as with most things the experience is dependant on the person.
And what do you mean by cheap exactly?
Also, I have a friend who went to PAVI, I think he paid around 18,000.
I would suggest teaching yourself modeling skills while attending a college or university learning color theory, light, form, and so on. A Bachelor of Fine Arts degree would look very impressive on a resume, but I don't know how many artists in the industry have one. I believe having one could improve your chances, but it certainly isn't necessary.
Just some food for thought. I'm not speaking from personal experience, but rather giving advice that has been given to me.
Well, a lot of the dinosaurs around here (sorry guys) will hate on the schools, but logically schools are needed and will in the future be the norm. That said, they aren't well enough established yet for there to be much stability.
Like it has been said, you are on the cheapest school (The Internet), but I think that the universities in BC have recently started a game art/design program, so check at UBC/Simon Fraser for that. Aside from that I went to AI. Dunno what it costs now days. I had a great experience there, but as with most things the experience is dependant on the person.
And what do you mean by cheap exactly?
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qfb (quoted for bullshit)
i don't know how many hirings, or how many times Tulks been hired in the industry. But schools are not NEEDED
and if you atend the cheapest you can find you may as be flushing your money down the toilet. school for learning 3d is completely optional, and i would personaly advise against it. If you want to go to school go to a real art school and learn traditional art. If you learn to be an artist, then learning 3d art will come easily.
Again heres a rundown
3d schools and schools dealing with game development = mostly waste of money. i hear guildhall is pretty good but can't speak from experience.
real art schools = good, learn anatomy, shading, forms, espective, color theory. all the stuff that will shape you into a good artist.
Sorry if you don't agree, but it's the way things are moving. Yes traditional art skills are a must, but so are the technical skills as well as a strong knowledge of game development.
In fact, the reason that the 4 major post secondary schools here in Vancouver have begun to set up this new program is because there was such a high demand from the major game developers around here for it. They don't want to have to hire juniors who don't know the actual process of game development, or don't understand the technical aspects of it, it's too expensive. They want to be able to hire people who don't need to be trained up.
I don't have to have been hired 10 or 20 times to know that. All you have to do is pay some attention to the happenings around you.
So call it bullshit all you want, the industry is currently gravitating towards the need for schooling.
Anyways, do not go to a 3D art/game design school. Those places do little to teach you art, they mostly are there to teach you the tools. I'm guessing that since you're here, you already know how to use the tools fairly well. Like Rhino said, getting an art degree from really any college will benefit you far more, as you will learn techniques and most likely pick up your own style along the way.
These are all things I should have done more of, but when I started on this road, games weren't my first focus. I've spent a decent number of years in and out of a computer animation program or two, that being the closest thing to "BFA in game art" I could find at the time. Firstly, they most often are not focused enough on any one topic to be of use to your skillset. The programs become a sort of sampler of how to use different 3d packages, and a few cute tricks if you're lucky. Also, it seems that most animation courses are more focused on feature film animation. While game animation is getting there in terms of complexity, the courses don't tend to get to the depth of information needed in key areas like scripting, rig building, and will often throw in things like rotoscoping and compositing, which can be useful, but not all that often.
So anyway, go to a good art school, and get the 3d stuff on your own.
but I'm going to an Art Institute for Game Art and Design and it's, like previously mentioned, been like a sampler, I learned nothing about texturing, nothing about lighting, nothing about normal mapping, barely scraped the design portion, and only had about 3-4 drawing classes.
Granted, I have learned a lot here, but that was from my own outside intervention as much as it was from school, plus it did help that I had a great modeling teacher, but like said.. traditional art would have been a whole lot smarter of a thing to study, because that's where I'm suffering at now, and it is much harder to learn than some 3d app. (well.... most 3d apps
Sorry Rhino, I should've worded that better. At the moment they aren't needed, though they are getting to be
Sorry if you don't agree, but it's the way things are moving. Yes traditional art skills are a must, but so are the technical skills as well as a strong knowledge of game development.
In fact, the reason that the 4 major post secondary schools here in Vancouver have begun to set up this new program is because there was such a high demand from the major game developers around here for it. They don't want to have to hire juniors who don't know the actual process of game development, or don't understand the technical aspects of it, it's too expensive. They want to be able to hire people who don't need to be trained up.
I don't have to have been hired 10 or 20 times to know that. All you have to do is pay some attention to the happenings around you.
So call it bullshit all you want, the industry is currently gravitating towards the need for schooling.
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No, the schools will never be "needed" until they figure out how the hell to actually educate. There isn't a single school out there with a consistent churn out of quality artists. There are one or two that seem to be able to make decent programmers and level designers, but not a single one that has art under control.
Those secondary schools aren't adding the education because the developers need it, they are adding it so they can get more people in their doors. Whether they get the money from the students attending, or the government because they have more pupils, it's a money making venture, not to fill an industry demand. If the companies in Canada want good employees, they just need to pony up the cash to get them, because they're out there, and they didn't just graduate from any 3d school.
I completely disagree that the industry is gravitating towards the need for schooling. It's gravitating towards the need for talented, experienced people, and the schools aren't producing that. They are just cashing in on the interest of starry-eyed kids. Until they do, the industry cares not.
Like Rhinokey and others have said in this thread, if you're going to go to school, go to a fine art school, and get a BFA in illustration or painting. Learn the traditional stuff, that's the hardest thing to get, that employers want to see. Learn the 3d stuff on the side, on polycount and other online resources.
Fact of the matter is, no one can tell you to GO to an Art School or not. The subject has been discussed time and time again. Personally, I think this subject just shows the ignorance of a lot of people on the boards, both for and against art schools or game design programs.
It's different for every person really. If you're a self motivated person with enough information at your fingertips, and you know what you're looking for and where to go, then yes, the internet is an obviously cheap and easy place to get your "education". The internet, however, does not provide a degree. Whether or not you need a degree to work in games? No clue, none of us can foresee that. It seems logical that the industry would move towards needing a degree sometime in the future, but probably not anytime soon. In general, no, you do not need a degree. The portfolio is what really counts, obviously. But, the pursuit of a higher education will, and I guarantee this, introduce you to ideas/processes you had no clue about, and would have otherwise not asked about on a forum like this. Thus, leaving you clueless. You also need that piece of paper if you ever plan on teaching in the future. Additionally, it will give you numerous skills that trolling around a forum will not.
All in all, do your research. You've already admitted to missing out on an opportunity because of not having a degree or being in school. So, it's apparent you're giving college some serious thought...good. Something like this is not something you search for based on cost, however. Loans are loans, nearly everyone pays them, big deal. Suck it up, do your research, find yourself a school/program that suits you. Make sure you get to look at the entire curriculum, class for class. Getting a bad, cheap education will be way more detrimental to your life than paying more for a good education. I would advise against a school that simply throws you in front of a computer and says "go". The Art Institutes are different at each location it seems. Bounchfx says that he didn't have much of a background in traditional art. Here at Pittsburgh, our entire first half of the program is based in traditional art. Just do your research bud, I think everyone has posted at least one thing beneficial to your search. Stay motivated whether you're in a school or not. Anyone can get a piece of paper, not everyone can make appealing art. Good Luck!
and the REASON the 4 schools that you stated have started up recently is that they can make a bundle teaching people who don't know better how to make terrible portfolios.
Cash rules all man. Theres tons of kids that think learning 3d will make them a great game artist. when in fact being a great artist, will make them a great game artist. and unfortunately most game schools focus more on software than on artistic basics
Since you are already here at Polycount, I presume you are closer to getting a job in the game industry than I was when I started school. I am going to echo what some other people have said here and tell you that if you want to seek an eduction go to an accredited school and get a degree in traditional art while working on 3d in your spare time. Get as much of this out of your way at a community college (cheaper) and then go on to a state college or university and you will save a LOT of money and get a better education vs going to a "game art school."
I attended the Art Institute at Portland for computer animation from 1998-2001. I can honestly say without having gone there I probably would not be working in the game industry today. HOWEVER, I had never picked up a mouse in my life prior to going to school there nor had I ever taken an art class. The education I received there was largely bullshit. What I did gain from going there was a basic familiarity of 3ds Max and Photoshop and some networking that led me to seek information elsewhere such as Polycount. I also gained around $50k+ in debt by the time my student loans are paid off.
Since you are already here at Polycount, I presume you are closer to getting a job in the game industry than I was when I started school. I am going to echo what some other people have said here and tell you that if you want to seek an eduction go to an accredited school and get a degree in traditional art while working on 3d in your spare time. Get as much of this out of your way at a community college (cheaper) and then go on to a state college or university and you will save a LOT of money and get a better education vs going to a "game art school."
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A degree with the word "computer" in it did help me get IT jobs in the mean time
At Polycount-Tech you will get hands-on critiques by instructors who actually work in the game industry. We're talking about people who have already made the grade, and work at this specialty every day. Our faculty is peerless in their cumulative expertise. We have courses in traditional art, low-poly modeling, high-polymodeling, poly-sculpting, UV-Mapping, texture-painting, animations, and game-engine integration. Pretty much the whole nine yards. Apply today!
but i pretty much agree with rhynokey, althou im on a school for other reasons....
I attended the Art Institute at Portland for computer animation from 1998-2001. I can honestly say without having gone there I probably would not be working in the game industry today. HOWEVER, I had never picked up a mouse in my life prior to going to school there nor had I ever taken an art class. The education I received there was largely bullshit. What I did gain from going there was a basic familiarity of 3ds Max and Photoshop and some networking that led me to seek information elsewhere such as Polycount. I also gained around $50k+ in debt by the time my student loans are paid off.
Since you are already here at Polycount, I presume you are closer to getting a job in the game industry than I was when I started school. I am going to echo what some other people have said here and tell you that if you want to seek an eduction go to an accredited school and get a degree in traditional art while working on 3d in your spare time. Get as much of this out of your way at a community college (cheaper) and then go on to a state college or university and you will save a LOT of money and get a better education vs going to a "game art school."
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Right On, sounds like we have somewhat similar Art Institute stories(I went to Seattle).
For me, I have drawn/painted/sculpted/whatever all my life, I was an art dork in high school. I started going to a traditional university for a fine arts degree, but quickly learned that much like high school the traditional route wasn't for me.
I originally decided to go to the art institute to become a 2D animator, but in my 4th or 5th quarter I took my first 3D class and started learning about game art creation and I was hooked. If I hadn't gone to AIS I would have never known about 3D at all, in addition to that I also took a lot of great life drawing, painting, and 2d animation classes and got a decent overall art education.
Since I wouldn't even know what 3D was if I wouldn't have gone to school, I am forever greatful that I went. However, my portfolio was in no way good enough to get me a job upon graduation, even though I was told that it was, and the "job placement" was near non-existant. I also racked-up a good amount of student loan debt, and even though I've only had a couple of industry jobs, I am amongst the most successful of my graduating class.
So for me, it was bittersweet, I wish I would have known what it was going to take to be industry ready and I wish I would have discovered polycount earlier, this is the best place to learn what to do and not to do. Since you're much more in-the-know than I was, I say take advantage of polycount and all of the great tutorials out there, start posting work and get feedback. And, if you're so inclined, go get a traditional art training, because like everyone else said, that's much harder to learn/teach than programs. Best of luck to you in whatever you decide, no matter what anyone else says, you have to do what you think is right for you.
/endrant
and the REASON the 4 schools that you stated have started up recently is that they can make a bundle teaching people who don't know better how to make terrible portfolios.
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Oh really? And you know this how? Where are you getting your information from Rhyno?
Last I checked the University of British Columbia wasn't hurting enough for money to have to make gimmicky game programs. Of course, that may just be my common sense speaking.
And yes, this program is quite heavily influenced by Industry. It was put into play largely due to the efforts of New Media BC in conjunction with some of the major game developers in town. New Media BC is a not for profit organization, so they weren't doing it to get cash, and EA and the other companies invovled don't get any cash for this either. So what then is their reason? Maybe that they are finding it hard to find decently talented people who don't have to be trained up.
I don't understand the blind resistance to schools on these boards. Currently the private schools are for the most part a waste, yes. Not all mind you, but for the most part. They are changing though. And we are begining to see an amalgamation of the traditional art and technical stuff required for this field of work. I personally spent my first six months of school almost fully learning tradtional art. That school still has a long way to go, but that is the sort of direction things are moving.
There is a reason pretty much any industry requiring skilled workers that is already established has school systems in place. Self training just isn't sufficient. Especially as things get more and more complex with current gen stuff.
All that said, I do agree with the majority here that currently the best bet is a traditional art program if you have to choose between that or private stuff. Though personally if I was looking into school I'd be checking out the new programs I've talked about. Dunno how well they'll turn out, but it's worth looking into.
New Media BC is a not for profit organization, so they weren't doing it to get cash, and EA and the other companies invovled don't get any cash for this either. So what then is their reason? Maybe that they are finding it hard to find decently talented people who don't have to be trained up.
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Or the more likely reason (besides philanthropy as you suggested) is that they want more ignorant meat for their sweatshops. A lot of companies love hiring people straight out of school because they can underpay and overwork. Plus, so few are doing anything artistic, it doesn't matter that the people they hire only know what buttons to push, but not how to create engaging art.
And money doesn't have to be the only motivator for the colleges to add it. Esteem, having more students, the management involved with setting it up probably got some acclaim for creating a new program, etc etc.
There are already hundreds of schools, and almost all of them claim to have been helped set up by industry pros, so when is enough enough? Think they'll get it right this time? Time number 401 is the charm right?
When school start paying competing wages, and start hiring people with real qualifications instead of empty pieces of paper, then they might move towards being needed. For the foreseeable future, I don't see it changing one bit.
Having any degree ups your chances of being paid more upon being hired. Does that cancel out the mountain of debt you sit under after emerging from school? It's up to you. Personally I got in without going to school, it was hard and I had to prove myself more than someone with a degree. Everyone I work with went to an AI somewhere, and I have had to teach everyone of them basic things that improve their work. In my eyes the time they spent at the AI was a waste of money. But not everyone is cut out to teach themselves so maybe some people do need structured learning? BUT in an industry that changes pretty often do you really want to work with sheep that can't keep themselves updated and bitch and moan about change or do you want to work with people that roll with the punches?
And where am I getting my info from? How about close to 8 years experience in the industry along side hundreds of people who either went to school or learned themselves. Along with this Ive cobbled together info from about 10 years of hanging out on this very forum having about 10 discussions about this per year. I have also taken several trips to represent places Ive worked at to local art institutes to look at portfolios. And have noticed a surprising few who are even close to starting a game job at even the most base level.
So Tulk, besides the pamphlets the schools give you (which Im sure are totally honest and straight up.) Where are you getting your information?
I don't think Game schools will never be required until they start teaching how to be an artist, Instead of teaching you how to connect some verts in a random software package. Its like going to an auto repair school and only learning how to use the tools.
As for my information, well, I was just sitting in a round table discussion group with some local game developers put on by New Media BC, chatted with a guy from New Media BC the other week about it, have talked to various local developers about it at things like VIGS, etc...
For the 3D schools, I'm not saying they're perfect, but there's a good chance I know the quality of the education given there better than you, as I was in one, am working in the industry now, and have been on these boards for around 5 years. I have a decent amount to base it on.
As to your analogy, here's mine. As much as I'd hate to have a brain surgeon who had no knowlege of the biology of the brain, I'd hate to have a brain surgeon who didn't know how to properly use the tools needed for my surgery just as much. In the end, I'd want my surgeon to have both.
A game artist needs both technical and tradition art skills, and should have both in my opinion *Before* they get a job. There are different ways to do that, and you may feel that one is better, but you have an incredibly narrow point of view currently. I'm not saying that you are wrong in your opinion. I'm saying that it's not black and white, and that in the future things will be different than they are now (as they are for everything).
If school is the tool you need to get there then have at it, just know the lil slip of paper you paid for isn't worth jack if you wasted your time.
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QFT
Later on we started our technical classes that had to do with 3D apps which imo could have been better. Honestly almost everything that was covered in our 3D modeling/texturing classes i already learned just from browsing polycount/digging through the help files. Definately dont go to an ai school expecting some godlike modeling tutalage. you guys who picked up 3D in highschool or joined a mod are SOOOO far ahead of the average student here its not even funny. Another thing is that it takes a LONG time to evaluate a new course and add it to the curriculum so by the time the leading edge shit gets put in to circulation, its already outdated and you're behind the curve. to my knowledge, we still dont have a course that covers normalmapping. There were some courses im very glad i had though. if it wasn't for ai i probably would have never learned unreal or the finer points of level design. good stuff.
I will give AIPX props for the variety of classes they have though, you probably won't be awesome in one specific area but you'll be one hell of a generalist
The problem is that this industry isn't even remotely static. The technical aspects of game design (and any other 3D-heavy discipline) are constantly driving forward. Any formal course is going to be outdated before it's even taught. Software packages can get bought out and rendered obsolete. Any school that teaches specific packages rather than working to develop fundamental skills and principles is a waste of time.
No, the schools will never be "needed" until they figure out how the hell to actually educate. There isn't a single school out there with a consistent churn out of quality artists. There are one or two that seem to be able to make decent programmers and level designers, but not a single one that has art under control.
Learn the 3d stuff on the side, on polycount and other online resources.
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Well Worded! I learnt more from you Poop than I have in the past 2 years of my degree course from any lecturer Ive had. Thanks alot! I spend a good part of my holidays just studying tutorials and stuff and now Ive just shown my lecturer how to bake normal maps LOL its rediculous.
I started working in a QA department, and worked my ass off in my spare time to learn my trade
If you can show you can do the job through a demoreel or portfolio - that is much much more valuable to employers than a piece of paper saying you went to university. The only reason I think a degree is helpful is the friends/contacts you make there (which is incredibly useful, sometimes it's not what you know that can get you that perfect job, but WHO you know), and it makes it much easier to get a working visa if you want to move to another country to work